On November 19, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, White House operator, and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone at 9:35 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 033-108 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Mr. President, Mr. Coles, and then Mr. Ziegler, won't you?
All right.
Hello?
Yes, sir, Mr. President.
Well, have you had a good time in Virginia?
Well, I was just down yesterday visiting a— Oh, yeah, yeah.
I'm back at my— Where did you go?
Well, in Warrington, the wife of a very good friend of mine died.
Oh, I see.
And I'm the executor of his.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So I just—
which I haven't been able to worry too much about with the election.
God, no.
God, no.
Yeah, yeah.
Beautiful country, but I suppose it's all winter there now, isn't it?
Yes, sir.
It's still pretty, though.
It's still beautiful.
Yeah.
Gorgeous.
I don't know.
Did the operator finally reach you about tomorrow night?
Yes, sir.
I got the message.
Oh, fine, fine.
Well, we'll just have you and...
and Ehrlichman and I to set up the—we've got to really get our White House staff thing set up for the next year, actually.
You know what I mean?
And names, numbers, and all the players in our organization, because you know we're cutting out so heavily here that we've got to do it.
And I think that your idea, which has a great deal of merit—I mean, there's a problem that we have with it is that
see a moving Klein out.
Just between you and me, we're saying we're not going to have that office, you know, and that we're going to put it basically under Ziegler.
Well, basically, if you have—if we retain a—which we must do—a capacity, an information and counterattack capacity in the White House, we've got to retain it in a way that
Certainly not call that office.
That's right.
See what I mean?
It's got to be done.
But my point—and also not as—and we have a very different situation, Chuck, too, in another thing, which of course you're aware of, but Klein—we haven't had our talk with him yet, but we're going to have to lay it out.
Herb wants to stay on.
Now, Herb shouldn't stay on.
Herb doesn't have any money.
He doesn't have—and this is the time he should go out, because if he waited, stayed on, you know, he'd go out for Christ.
Who the hell wants somebody 57 years old who's just been farting around the White House?
That's right.
Right now he's 50 years old, and Christ, he should do damn well, do as well as Jack Valenti.
Wouldn't you think so?
Yes, sir.
I think it's— But he should go right now.
Right now, when he's on top, he's done well.
He's been a winner.
Mm-hmm.
But it's hard to convince him of it.
Well, I think he maybe wants to take a little time to shop around.
I suspect that's what Herb is thinking.
Well, the shopping is no problem, but shop now.
What the hell?
The thing to do, look here, the market is right now.
I found myself within the time that anybody like that within every month passed
any kind of an election thing like that, you know, when you're in things.
Oh, God.
You just recede, you recede into the public consciousness out of it.
I told Haldeman Friday night, I don't know that he reported our discussions to you, but I said, from my own personal selfish standpoint, I'm getting calls from everybody.
I could sign up 15 clients.
The only thing I'm arguing is that it's not...
Well, I've talked to Holloman in terms of an alternate scheme, which he will be talking to you about today, which I think may accomplish both objectives.
That is where we can do both.
But in the meantime, the more important thing is that tomorrow night we should really sit down and take the long view.
without having in mind any personalities at the moment and say, now look, here's what we really need.
We need this in order to, you know, because with looking to it, you eventually will be gone and Scali is going to be gone and Klein will be gone and so forth.
So we may end up exactly where we used to be, which was goddamn poor, with Kissinger never doing anything on the PR side.
And with Ehrlichman, you know, doing a little better than he used to do, or considerably better, actually, but still not having that kind of capability.
And you say, well, why doesn't the National Committee do something, or why doesn't the leaders do something?
Well, it's just— They don't have the clout, Mr. President.
They not only have the clout, but they don't have the desire.
That's right.
The basic problem—I said to all of them, you cannot cut off all of your—you can't
either symbolically or substantively, just to close the door on a hell of a lot of people who are used to coming in and working with those of us in the White House.
And they're just not as willing to do it.
Well, that's why I think we need to keep, for example,
I mean, I don't basically want a house Jew, for example.
Like Max Fischer, no one's insisting that his man come in, and I'm not going to do that.
But if Garment stays on, which is probably likely, and, you know, somebody's got to handle the bicentennial and all that nonsense, and he's very good at it, let him be the house Jew.
Don't you agree?
And Don Rogers, if we could really get him, I don't know if we could stay.
That would be one thing.
But let me come to one other thing.
What about Brennan and the idea of putting the labor follow, rather than the Department of Labor, which I think has a great deal of merit, I guess it's your suggestion, right?
Rather than putting them there.
putting him in, say, making him the Secretary of Transportation, which will open up.
Now, take Brennan, who would be my first choice if you could get him.
Does Brennan have—is he basically building trades only, or could he have some
He doesn't need to know anything about transportation, but I suppose building trades do something in the transportation area, don't they?
Well, they do, but I wouldn't be so concerned about that, Mr. President.
It's just having a guy with good judgment.
Right, right.
Is there anything else you'd put him in?
Now, the trouble with HUD is that we're going to make that a super thing, you see, where basically to shut down model cities and things like that.
I wouldn't want to put the labor guy in that spot.
No.
But transportation, it seems to me, is a very good place for a labor guy, because first, it's got a lot of meat in it, and yet it's stuff where we can control it.
What was a lot of labor problems, actually, in DOT, if you will?
put a teamster at the head of DOT and make all kinds of sense because they really know the regulatory preference.
Well, I thought, who's your choice?
Brennan, to me, is the best man for the labor department.
If you were looking at—and frankly, I think he's the best labor man for the cabinet.
He's a great— Yeah, well, that's fine.
Now, how would Fitz take Brennan?
I've talked to Fitz, and I didn't— Yeah, what did he say?
He said he would—he said, well,
He said, I'd rather see a Teamster, but he said, I like Brennan.
And he said, I would work with him if you tell me, Chuck, he's all right.
He said, I really don't know him personally.
Well, don't you think, Chuck, putting a Teamster in transportation does pose somewhat of a problem?
It does.
It's like putting a labor guy in labor.
That's right.
Or worse, because of the Teamster thing.
If you could sell Brennan to that—and Brennan would be all right with Paul Hall and all that bunch, wouldn't he?
Oh, a hundred percent.
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
Wouldn't—isn't the trick here to get Fitz in soon, have me see him as the first labor guy I see rather than Meany?
I mean, George Shultz has seen Meany.
And then go over the Brennan thing with him.
How would that sound to you?
I think that would sound very good.
Because...
Final analysis, Mr. President, I could sell Fitzsimmons on Brennan.
Right.
I could sell him on Jack Lyons, for example.
Yeah, I understand that.
Well, I understand.
Well, that was the one that...
But meet us in May.
Brennan would be... Brennan would be great.
He's got a great name and so forth.
But the point is that I think what we ought to do is to give Fitz what Fitz deserves.
You see, Meany was very helpful in a neutral way, but Fitz was helpful in a positive way and very early.
And you've got to put a signal out there.
That'll make Meany be a little better.
The idea, I mean, George Shultz doesn't understand the idea that, well, that's going to make Meany mad.
That's typical of the way our boys handle things.
No, Mr. President, an old Irish Bronx Democrat understands that the victor goes to spoil.
That's right.
On the 14th of, it was on the 17th, whatever it was, the Monday after the Democratic Convention.
That's right.
A few days later, Meany...
Yeah.
If you could—you've already talked to Fitz.
Yes, sir.
Well, I'm prepared on Brennan to go.
I'm handling this one all myself.
Right.
I haven't necessarily—we haven't got a hold of Volpe, you know.
We've got the goddamnedest thing.
I mean, here I am sitting here working, and Volpe's traveling.
Kleindienst is traveling.
You know, they're all over the tree.
Therefore, I just can't get in.
Hodgson is in Europe.
Hodgson is in Europe.
But Hodgson's no problem.
Hodgson's a decent man.
And Schultz agrees that you don't believe what Hodgson says today, do you?
Good God, no.
No, sir.
No, I didn't think so.
I mean, assuming even we don't have a labor man in there, which apparently is going to be damn difficult.
Well, if you didn't put a labor man in there, I'd like to see just a smart politician go in and reorganize that.
Could a fellow like Counts do it?
Maybe.
I'd have questions about Kurt being able to do that.
He's an awful nice fellow.
Nice fellow, but isn't a good enough executive.
I've asked him to go in there, and I told Roy Ash what had to be done on Friday morning.
Well, if you've got a candidate, you see, what we need there, and God damn it, Chuck, we haven't got an Italian yet.
I can't find any.
The only one I've got is Balzano, and he isn't quite ready yet for the cabinet.
No?
Oh, no.
I don't know whether—did Bob mention the Scali idea to you?
No, not—I hadn't thought of it, but could he— Scali at the U.N. instead of— Instead of the blacks?
Instead of the blacks.
Who the hell cares about the blacks?
Scali would love the U.N.
I would give you an Italian in the cabinet.
And he's a legitimate Italian, good Italian credential, of course, knows that.
Yeah, yeah.
Could Scali run, I don't know, not commerce, not commerce, but the U.N.?
He could do very well.
Yeah, that would be just like falling off a log farm.
You know, basically you don't know the block's a damn thing anyway.
Oh, hell, as a matter of fact, Mr. President, I think it's a bad signal to put a block in a cabin.
I told Bob that.
Yeah, I think maybe you're right.
people that voted for us.
Yeah.
And after all, after all, this pampering the blacks doesn't—I think you've got a good point there.
I hadn't determined that, Tony.
I'll tell you what, part of the problem is I think they wanted to get Walter Washington the hell out of here.
Well, that's— But that is—there must be other ways to do that, making him ambassador.
Ambassador to some country he'd love it.
Hell, yes.
We don't have a— You know, Scully sounds damn good for the U.S. Well, Scully's articulate.
But the man—he's articulate.
No, but would he—would he cut off
See, I want whoever goes to the U.N. to take our orders.
Well, he'll take orders.
But that whole staff up there is violently anti-Nixon.
Oh, Skelly would, yes.
You see, and Bush hasn't done one damn thing about it.
He's become part of it.
Skelly is terribly, emotionally and all other ways, is terribly close to you and loyal to you.
Has he ever mentioned it to you?
Yes, he raised it with me.
Would he like to go?
Yes.
I raised it with Bob.
My God, you know that's an idea.
I haven't talked to Bob.
I've tried to give everybody the day off, but— Did you mention it to him Friday night?
No, I mentioned it to him last week, one day.
Yeah, well, I didn't get to it.
Well, he said it was all set with Washington.
I think that was what he figured.
Set?
Oh, hell no.
No, sir.
Well, I don't recall exactly what Bob said.
No, we haven't discussed the U.N. yet, at my level at least.
Washington has been—
I just, I said that my only reaction about the Washington is, if we appoint a bloc in the cabinet in the second term, we didn't have one in the first term.
Yeah, that's right.
My guts are moving.
Well, you see, we're not going to keep the U.N. in the cabinet position, however.
Oh, I see.
So, in other words, they will attend cabinet meetings only when, you know what I mean, but that doesn't make any difference.
The main thing, they're ambassador to the U.N.
It's still, and it's still great to assemble.
Oh, sure, sure.
Coming back, Mr. President, the only Italian I know in the country who, now that's a terrible statement,
I don't think he's quite got the clout to be, say, Secretary of Commerce.
No, I don't either, and I don't think he's tough enough.
I told you.
The one that—well, now, there must be others, though.
There must be others someplace around this country that have it.
But if you took a guy like DeSimone, who was an outstanding attorney general— Yeah, I know.
How about Young Toro?
Is he ready?
Well, he's on the bench now.
Doesn't make any difference.
We made him a district court judge.
I know.
I know that, but— I don't think he's ready for the cabinet, no, sir.
Yeah.
Well, of course, we're going to—you see, if I can—if we can move Peterson—I'm trying to move Peterson to a European job.
We move that.
Then we have an opening at Commerce.
But then we've got to get a businessman, and in labor, too.
We've got to get somebody who's basically in labor, a conciliator.
And the only one Shultz comes up with is that goddamn fellow from Harvard.
Dunlop?
Dunlop.
Oh, that'd be awful.
Well, I think it would kill everybody.
And I told George, I said, no, I will not take him.
You know, it's really a pleasure to make this cabinet up compared to 68.
And I didn't know the names of the players and the numbers.
But boy, they raise these names, and I say, no, no, no.
I wonder why Brennan—would Brennan not be acceptable at labor to— Oh, he'd be acceptable—he would be acceptable as far as I'm concerned, as far as I'm concerned.
But the problem that I have is Meany.
Well, Meany— Meany told George that he didn't want a labor man in the Labor Department.
But then he came back— Because of the handling—he said he'd take one if he would, but because—and he makes a very strong argument.
He says, We've got lots of labor problems that we have to deal with.
that are going to be coming up like tough ones, like where the Secretary of Labor would have to be on the other side of the president.
And it shouldn't be in the Labor Department.
It would be great if he were in the Transportation Department or something else.
You see, in other words, a labor guy in charge of another department.
That was my first recommendation before the election, to put a labor guy into another department and put a smart, tough politician into the Labor Department, because you've got to reorganize.
And one thing, maybe he doesn't want it.
And I explained this to Ash.
Many does not want someone who really knows the Labor Department to go into the Labor Department because he would clean out areas that the A's of L-C-I-O bureaucracy over at 16th Street just uses their own.
But we do want to clean some of them out.
Oh, you've got to clean it up, Mr. President.
Like, for example, we've got to clean out the—I mean, it's a funny thing.
George Shultz was mentioned out there, but he's never mentioned that goddamned Bureau of Labor Statistics now.
You have that in mind, haven't you?
Oh, that's amended.
That's a positive plus to go in there and take—
Haven't heard a word about that.
Have you mentioned that to Schultz or anybody?
To Ash.
What did Ash say?
Oh, he agreed.
Well, Ash wasn't very familiar with what goes on.
Oh, but Ash will play.
Actually, you see, isn't that a stroke to get him?
Yeah, he's the kind of a tough— You know, he's a Catholic, too.
You mentioned that to me.
I think that's right.
So there it is.
Well, that's damn helpful.
I'm amazed that we could get him.
As a matter of fact, we have two Catholics.
We've got now Ash and Schultz, both class Catholics.
Schultz?
Schultz, I didn't know it.
He's a devoted Catholic.
George Schultz?
George Schultz, right.
You know, you'd never know it, but he's great, very close to his favorite cardinals in the Midwest.
But George Schultz is a Catholic, and his wife.
I knew Obi was.
No, but George is, too.
Oh, hell yes.
I didn't know that.
So that's not bad.
Well, listen, that's the point.
We've got to get it around.
we will at the proper time.
After four years, nobody knows it.
Yeah.
But you see, you've got Schultz as a Catholic.
You've got Ash as a Catholic.
It's not bad.
No, it's damn good.
Now Brennan, you know, you would prefer him in labor to transportation?
Yes, sir.
That opens up transportation for another— Well, Brennan's the only labor guy that you could put in the Labor Department.
And there are reasons for that.
I'll not burden you with the explanation,
Because he comes from a state level, he would not be captive of the bureaucracy.
Would he want it?
Would he take it?
I haven't thought.
It's a tough thing for him to do, because what he does is to say he will never succeed, meaning if he takes the job, because he can't.
Yet he's articulate, and he looks good, and he's our friend.
I listened to him the night that he and I both spoke for Teddy Gleason.
He was just kind of, he's got a
He's got that Irish look.
I know what you mean.
Well, when we talk tomorrow night, those are some of the things that we've got to get sort of buttoned down, because you see there's wheels within wheels, and I've kept all these options open.
But I think your idea about the U.N. makes a hell of a lot of sense.
Well, it's just a suggestion.
No, but why put a black in there?
Why do it?
I wouldn't.
I would just deliberately not put a black in a position.
As a matter of fact, I don't see any reason.
We've got our black and keep a few in the administration.
You can't be in a position where you just turn your backs on them totally.
No, no, no.
But I think this, Mr. President, you were just elected with the biggest landslide in history, but with no better participation than the blacks.
Mr. Senate, do we have any late—when are we going to get the last figures this week?
They keep coming in.
I keep getting them updated.
They're above 61.4 on Friday.
What do you have now?
Is it numbers, Chuck?
You got any numbers there?
These are numbers that you got, but nothing has been printed above 60.
The New York Times is 60.8.
That's right.
But you notice what's happening around the country, Mr. President?
No.
The absentee ballots are coming in.
For example, we just elected a Republican congressman in Washington on the basis of the absentee ballots.
State of Washington?
Yes, sir.
Great.
Pele's seat?
Pele's seat, right.
Marvelous.
That was because of the absentee ballots, which were running at 60 to 70 percent for us.
That's the stuff.
You see, that's...
Several thousand.
So we're now up 193 or 194, maybe now.
193.
That's great.
Under recount.
Now, Gordon, now let's see, as the absentee ballots are coming in, he may be down to 1,000 or 2,000 vote margin.
Still can't win, though.
Well, they're talking about a recount.
I don't think so.
It's no wonder.
It's a rattle bush.
It is.
We're going for a long time.
What would you do with Gordon?
in charge of the Canadian Commission or something.
No, he's basically—just don't want him in Washington.
No, Gordon is a good man.
He's been an honest fellow and so forth.
And incidentally, he'd be a good ambassador.
Yeah, he'd be a damn good ambassador.
He's got a lot of Spanish-speaking people in Colorado.
I would think that he— But you see, if he's in Washington, we've got a real thorn in our side.
If he wants it, we should take care of him, especially if he ends up losing .
Yeah, but I don't want to get in the position.
I'm not going to take care of Miller.
I'm not going to take care of Chafee.
You know, really, Louie Nunn doesn't want anything.
Dr. Thompson doesn't deserve anything.
You agree?
Absolutely.
And as far as the congressmen are concerned, I don't know for a twangle he's had his turn.
That's right.
I agree.
Absolutely.
John Kyle, you could make him an assistant secretary over in the agriculture department or something.
Well, he's a good man.
You could use him.
Undersecretary, maybe.
Jack Miller, Mr. President, told George Webster, who's the fellow I recommended.
Oh, I know your fellow, yeah.
I don't know him, but I met him, but I don't know him.
I know who he is.
Tremendous guy.
He's a lawyer, isn't he?
Yes, sir.
He was head of lawyers for Nixon.
He's from Tennessee and he's tough.
But a lawyer in Washington?
Yes, sir.
Right.
Well, he's going to be our new Cutler, or whatever your name is.
Is that the name of it?
Lloyd Cutler?
Well, he's going to be the— I went into that with Connolly, and Connolly—I told him that we were going to have you
passports to the lawyers.
He said, thank God.
You know, Conley is very tough on that.
He said, we have been foolish.
He said, I mean, he says, Clark Clifford, all the rest of it, an entree to this White House.
He says, cut it off.
Well, John's talking to me about that.
He used to talk to me about that when he was... Well, look, Chuck, Pete Flanagan has been one of the worst offenders in this respect.
Don't you agree?
Sure.
The whole goddamn cabinet has Mr. President.
Oh, the cabinet, of course.
Well, they come here with big stars in their eyes that they're in Washington, and all of a sudden they see names they've heard of over the years, and they don't have the balls.
That's why we're going to have some other big stars.
It's going to be fun.
I'm looking forward to these for you.
My problem is there are about eight things I want to do, and there's only time to look through.
Well, we'll see.
We'll get quite a few done.
I really don't want to do a lot of...
I was saying about George Webster, that he
He told me that Jack Miller, who was an old friend of his, I mean, they went together because of the tax laws.
But he said that Jack Miller said, well, I blew this election.
And he said there wasn't any way I could have won this, except if I'd gotten off my ass and gone out and worked.
And nobody could have helped me.
He said it was all my doing.
So he's taking it apparently intelligently.
Gordon Howard is not, but that's— What's Gordon?
Are you whining?
Oh, Jesus, Pete Dominick and Freddie.
I was— I heard that Pete Dominick and Bob Wilson both—what happened to the project?
I was giving all the hell about it today because I gave it to him.
The project that I said—I instituted immediately after the election that we were to get out the story about how many—that I had done an unprecedented job in terms of
pictures with all candidates, video, I mean, pictures, you know, television clips with all the Senate candidates, audios for all Senate candidates, telephone calls to all Senate candidates.
Agnew was in every state I was in about, you know, I did the ones that they said were the closest.
Did any of that ever get printed, Chuck?
What happened to that?
It didn't.
We got it out.
We had, of course, in this gallery working our seat.
What happened?
Well, it's news when Pete Dominick attacks us.
I'm afraid.
And it isn't news when we say, look at the swell giant.
But did anybody really seriously suggest that we go to Colorado?
Not seriously.
I didn't hear anything like it.
Dominic said that poor Gordon Allitt had to cast a lot of very difficult votes for the president.
Therefore, it hurt him when he was up for election.
Well, Jesus Christ, if you cast votes for the president, you won Colorado over 60% of the vote.
hurt him when he was up there.
But Dominick is such a sour asshole.
I really think, what would you do with him?
I just wouldn't have him around anymore.
What do you think?
Well, it teed his light.
And he's spent too much time with his pals in town.
What about Wilson now?
What's he squealing about?
Good God, for the house guys, we couldn't have done any more.
Connolly feels very strongly.
He said he felt that the people didn't want to have
you know, your theory, that they wanted to retain the balance, that my going in might have had a reverse effect.
Oh, I think it clearly did in Rhode Island.
In Rhode Island, it may have lost it.
Yeah, I'm convinced now that it did.
Yeah.
It pulled me down and didn't help them.
That's right.
It was galvanizing Democrats.
Right.
On the other hand, it did help in North Carolina, and it did help in Oklahoma.
I think those two, we did do it.
Because those are basically states that are moving our way.
That's right.
That we're traditionally against.
Kentucky was going to be lost for other reasons.
I think it did help Michigan straightening up, but mainly because we had an issue busing.
Oh, sure.
That we tied him to.
The tide was running for us.
Where the tide was moving against us was
That's right.
Very good point.
But the point is, what did Wilson say?
I haven't read the news.
I haven't seen a thing from Wilson.
The only statement I saw was Bud Brown's, which disappointed me, and that was because I think he's a tremendously evil fellow.
Is he whining?
He was whining.
He was so dead.
He won.
Bud's problem is Bud wants badly to succeed Bob Wolf, I think.
Well, this kills me with him then.
I mean, I wouldn't be for it.
Well, basically what he was criticizing was the Committee for the Re-election spending all the money in Washington rather than spending it out in the field.
You're just mistaken about that.
We spent an awful lot of it out in the field.
Did he take the president on again on this?
No, no, no.
This business has got to stop.
I agree.
I mean, if they do, I just think we close the door now.
We don't...
They don't realize that I don't need them anymore.
That's right.
And they need us.
We'll just go to our Democrats, the people that say nice things.
Well, getting back to your figures, what do you finally have now?
You say that your figures are over 61 now, Chuck.
Yes, sir.
My figures, which just have been, as I say, obtained by calling people, show us at 46,850,000.
And that...
Forty-six, eight-fifty, eight-fifty.
We might go to forty-seven then, do you think?
Could.
Oh, yeah.
Well, as long as I take a swoop down, we surely will.
You mean as an overall number?
As an overall number, forty-seven.
He will go to twenty-eight, seven, or twenty-eight, six, or seven as an overall figure, I think.
He will go.
My figures don't show him anywhere near that now.
The reason that I question my figures is that, in this regard, is that the published
latest published AP statistics show him at 28.5 and I show him on this tabulation at 28.132.
Which has to be wrong.
That's what I said.
But even taking it to 28.
Then maybe your upper figure is wrong.
Or it would be wrong the other way though.
In other words, it would be larger.
In any event, the percentage there is, if you calculate that percentage, it's 61.6.
Well, 61.6 at him at 28.1, but that can't be right.
Give him 37%.
No, but 28.1, Chuck, can't be right.
But calculate him at 28.5, then, as against your intent.
Back down to about 61.2.
You've got to figure that the AP figure on him is right.
I mean, there's something wrong with ours.
Well, the only thing we did with ours was to go to the—
Secretary of State in every damn state.
Now, AP sometimes takes the newspaper figures, and they've been bouncing all over the place.
Also, the way the votes are coming in, perfectly obvious, Gordon Ellis' margin was changed from 15,000 to 1,000.
So with the absentees coming in in Colorado, or 2,000.
In Washington, a seat was changed.
And so it's true, as we anticipated, as the absentees are being counted around the country,
They're coming in heavily for us.
When do we get a final?
You don't know, but you're watching at least recently.
Don't they have to certify at a certain time?
Yes, sir, but the date sold is the 25th of November, the 1st of December, the 22nd of November, the 2nd of December, the 4th of December, the 5th of December, the 11th of December.
The last one is the 11th of December.
that you have real confidence in, a real solid fellow, could really go over it and get these figures and have them work on it today and get to me what is the figure.
I mean, I don't—in other words, the 28-1 is obviously wrong.
That's right.
So our guy has probably just not done it right, see?
So if a fellow's wrong on one figure, Chuck, you can't trust his other figures.
That's correct.
So I'd put somebody a little bit more buttoned down on it.
Well, I had some pretty good people working on it.
They— Well, I know, but it just may be some guy that doesn't realize it.
I mean, what I'm getting at is they ought to be able to go over—there are certain states that you know are in, say 100 percent, okay.
You've even got to check those to be sure that that 100% may not... See, some of it say 100% in the press.
Right.
It may not be 100%.
It may be 100% of all precincts in, but absentees still out.
Oh, that's right.
So you've got to call every state.
That's right.
I mean, every state, even though it says 100% and say... Now, I know California, all absentees are counted at the same time, so that's done.
Right.
You don't need to worry about that.
But others...
I'd certainly get the figure.
Well, I doubt that I'll be able to get you... Well, sir, tomorrow.
We can't make any calls today.
I'm afraid we wouldn't reach anybody today.
But see, our California figure, now that you mention that one, that's a good point of comparison.
Our California figure shows up exactly the same as AP.
It's a California figure.
Identical.
See, there's one where we know it's in.
It's solid.
And it's absolutely...
Our Colorado figure, for example, shows McGovern with 5,000 less than the AP shows, and shows us with the exact same figure as AP.
So they're just our discrepancies in how you account for the value of things, except the AP relies upon the AP editors in each state who maybe are— Well, our people probably are doing both, but they shouldn't do that.
I think there's a Secretary of State in each state.
A Secretary of State could be called in each state.
That's what we did.
And I'd start—yeah, I don't—but I'd start right down the line.
Throw all the newspaper figures aside and say, what is your latest figure?
And then get it down.
Do you think that would be a good idea?
Yeah, I do.
Then we get sort of a solid figure.
Do what a good newspaper editor ought to be doing but isn't doing.
That's right.
The first time we did this, Mr. President,
The very first set of figures I ever gave you, we got just that way.
We disregarded the newspapers.
That's the way to do it.
And went right through 056.
That's when I got you the 61 point.
.01, yeah.
But it's been moving since then our way.
You know, it would mean quite a bit.
I mean, Conley particularly feels it would mean quite a bit if you could go over to 61.1.
Oh, I think so, too.
I think it's a psychological shot that...
It enables you to talk and even word of mouth, because we're going to have problems with the Congress today, even word of mouth.
You're talking about the biggest landslide.
Well, it is the biggest landslide.
It's the biggest landslide.
It's the biggest margin in history, that's for sure.
It would be, but it's over there.
If you want to plug, it would be the biggest everything in history.
Yeah, and you've got the .3.
You've got everything to talk about.
Coming back to these people then, the real question is, Brennan,
We'll do some more checking on Brennan to see the fits you think would take him.
Yes, sir.
We've got to be damn sure he'll take him.
Oh, I'm satisfied on that.
He would take him, yes, sir.
And at labor?
And at labor, yes, sir.
He would take him at DOT.
I just think Pete Brennan's the kind of guy you want, frankly, that you want in the cabinet.
Well, which would you prefer him in?
I'd prefer him in the Labor Department because I know
He's the only labor guy— And then would he do what we wanted there?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
In other words, you'd have to do it, because I couldn't depend on a—
our White House fellow.
Would you—if you put him in the Labor Department, do you think we could still retain Rogers in our White House staff?
Yes, sir.
Because I think—I have great confidence in him.
Well, they've worked hand in glove.
But I mean, would Brennan let us continue to have him?
That's the question.
Oh, absolutely.
He'd want him because it would— In other words, that would be his contact.
Sure.
If you have the right attitude with these fellows, they love that because George Shultz
We'll tell you that it's just a question of personality.
If you have the right fellow over there, the guy can be helpful, damned helpful.
What would you do, incidentally, with a fellow like Bolzano?
Would you still keep him there?
What I proposed about, yes, sir, I would.
And I think that's awfully important, because you know— It's a signal.
Well, it's a signal, and it's a little more than that, because during the campaign, I sent Bolzano three or four times to work with Vito Marzullo.
Because he told Marzullo, 75 years old, he's never had anything to do with the Republican Party.
It's been a bad word to him.
He votes for Richard Nixon.
And then he calls up in February that the only name he knows— Bozzano, and Bozzano is not there, I agree.
Well, he's over at OEO.
And Marzullo says, oh, the hell with that.
I never should have—Brecaccino, Mario Braccaccino, he called me up this week.
He said, well, now we did our job.
Who do we come to when we have problems?
You see, that's a very—
That's right.
The Republicans, they can go to the Republican National Committee.
The, the, uh, businessmen can go to the Commerce Department.
But where the hell is just a Democratic guy who helped us in the campaign?
But the Jews, you will agree that Garment's enough, won't you think?
Oh, sure.
Well, I think he has been enough.
Because basically, as far as they're concerned, they'll be with us when they want to be anyway.
Uh, exactly right.
And if, if any breed of cattle
does not need a spokesman in the White House.
It is them.
It is they, Christo.
Well, correct.
We've got them all over the place anyway.
You've got Stein and people like that.
They're in a completely different kettle of fish.
And that—I wouldn't worry at all about the Jewish bloc.
I think that they're—I think all that— Well, coming back to the situation, then, you really feel that if we get Brennan over there, then that opens up transportation for another
which we'd love to get, but we haven't got any at the moment.
Well, I think you could find a fellow like Rocco Siciliano.
He's not a good one because he burned out.
But to find a fellow like that, I don't know how good this fellow Biagini is who was out in the West Coast.
No, no.
John Kendall said he didn't have it.
Well, he didn't support us.
I mean, he was for us, but wouldn't come out publicly.
And Kendall's just, Kendall's death on any businessman that won't come out publicly.
I don't know about this, but I learned a lot of you on the Price Commission.
I know nothing about a damn good Italian name.
We could find one.
If you gave us the assignment to find a good Italian, well, I wouldn't put him in DOT, come to think of it.
Well, we haven't got any place else.
That looks like— Well, if you've got a hell of a good Italian businessman, we could put him in commerce.
See, commerce is going to be open.
That's what I would do.
Yeah.
I don't know if we could have a hell of a good Italian businessman.
So I can put—you know, it doesn't make a damn who's in commerce except for the figures over there that they get.
Oh, hell no.
Maybe there's somebody down the line.
I don't know.
I don't know.
of some sort.
Anyway, I've told him to run by Kendall to see who he has to recommend, see what kind of names come up, because he's got quite a business group, you know, and they're all our friends.
Also, Mr. President, you can handle the Italian problem in other ways.
You know, I think you can handle that—it was mentioned in D.C. One—you can put him in a visible position in the Justice Department, where he was a former attorney general.
Yeah.
That means a lot to the Italians.
Well, the Scali thing might be a way to handle it, too.
That would be a real signal, wouldn't it?
Oh, Jesus, yes.
Yeah, into that spot of all.
You see, that would be the first time that you took an Italian American and put him in a— Well, we could put him up there, as a matter of fact.
—representing all of the— Right, and that means that they said, well, is it cabinet?
Oh, yes, any time that there's anything to be discussed.
You know what I mean?
all U.N. matters, you know, sort of that ex-officio kind of a thing.
Well, it would be great visibility, and I think the Italians would— Incidentally, on that connection, is he remarried again yet or not?
No, sir.
That would pose one sort of modest problem, you know.
That's a hell of an entertaining job up there, Chuck.
Or do you think it is?
I don't know.
Is that enough?
Maybe it doesn't make that much difference.
I think I'd let the U.N. evaporate if there was some way to do it.
But— Incidentally, we have another problem, of course.
We've got to get a couple of Southerners in this outfit.
You know, we haven't got one Southerner at the present time.
See, Blount was our Southerner, and he's gone.
But I want a politician this time, and a good one.
What would you say to Callaway, Bill Callaway?
I've always been very high on Bill Callaway.
And he could do commerce, couldn't he?
Yes, he could.
He has a business background, the Callaway Gardens and the rest, but I've always thought he had a lot of charm and so forth.
Oh, I'm a Bo Callaway fan, Harry.
I've heard an awful lot of people talking to him, but I've always— Why did they talk him down?
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know quite now.
I think he was on the outs—well, I think it's a factionalized thing, but I thought Bo—I worked with him in 68, going after delegates at one point.
I think Bo is one hell of a guy.
He would be good, Mr. President.
What's your feeling as to what we should do?
There's only one guy that I have sort of mixed emotions about.
I mean, of the changes, you know.
What is your feeling about this fellow, about Rogers Morton?
I mean, he isn't running the department.
It's in a shambles because he can't manage it.
But he is an enormously potent front man, and he is kind of considered to be a friend of the Congress.
Will you keep him or not?
Yeah, I think I would keep him.
But we are going to let him know that he wasn't any longer running that place, but he was out front.
Some other people were coming in to take it over, because it's a disaster.
He would keep him.
But I would end up keeping him, yes, sir.
I don't think he visibly
Well, that might be a bad shot if he were to go.
Well, I think it would be a bad signal to the party.
You know, I'm a little— We've got to work with the party.
We've got to work with them.
We can't let them feel that we're not—that's a good signal to the party.
Yes, it is.
We don't owe them a damn thing, Mr. President.
No, they pulled us down.
Sure.
But the point is— I know.
—that you've got to keep all elements of the coalition—the majority—alive and
There's beginning to be just a little bit of undertone of discontent within the party.
I'm sensing it just Friday.
As a matter of fact, it's Saturday, but Friday.
What are they complaining about?
Not supporting the House and Senate members to see that story not getting out or what?
I think they're just getting a little bit worried that they don't know what's going on in terms of everything being— Dole, you know, wants to stay on.
Do you think he should?
No.
Good God, no.
be a disaster, wouldn't it?
For him, he's going to have to run for the Senate.
The worst mistake he could make in his whole life would be to stay in that job.
That's right.
He could end up having himself licked as a senator from Kansas if that runs against him.
And secondly, it would be a disaster because he hasn't been chairman.
He really has not been.
He's been a speaker when we wanted him to be a speaker.
You know, I thought of something that just occurred to me as a
of a nice twist.
The one that—would you not agree that the one that's really done the best job over there is Ann Armstrong?
Yes.
Why not make her chairman?
Texas?
Southern?
Well, I love it except for one reason.
I would— Jean Westwood, you mean?
That's right.
In fact, we were copying Jean Westwood.
Yeah, but they're going to throw her out.
I don't know.
I read the AP camp and I read the UP camp.
I wouldn't bet on it either way.
Which—they both—they don't know.
But they're going to have— He says now and UP says yes, but— December 9th.
But they'll have a—they'll certainly have a hell of a fight.
Oh, they're going to have a bloodletting, Mr. President.
That's great.
I just— It's great.
—revel with it.
But that's why I wouldn't do that, I'm sure.
I'd put her—if she wanted to, I'd put her— She didn't want anything.
Highly visible spot.
She's a terribly attractive woman.
Got a lot of—
Could she do Secretary of Commerce?
Yeah.
As a matter of fact, I guess she could.
She's from Texas.
All right.
Got a big ranch.
Which would be better, Boa or Cherie?
She would be.
She'd be better than Boa?
Yes, sir.
Because it would be a woman, it would be, she's more recent.
Well, one great virtue to it would be that she has
In a sense, she's like I am, or Rogers, and some of us are with the labor fellows.
We're in very current contact with them, you know, every day.
And she's been in very current contact with the party every day.
And you keep her in Washington and Mayfield, you know, that's a damn good channel for the people to come through.
I just thought of that.
I just thought of trying to keep her somewhere.
I don't know whether she'd do it, but...
There's no problem with her affording it, but I don't know what her—what do you hear?
I don't know her very well.
Could she do it with her family and everything?
Yeah, she'd do it marvelously.
She's got— I mean, would she, you think?
Yes.
Oh, yes.
I think she'd win the cabinet.
She'd love it.
A nice signal to the Texas Republican Party, too.
Well, which is the big state down there, and basically it is a southerner.
And it's a swing state.
And she's a converted Democrat.
Yeah, and she has—
That's right.
Just think of that as a possibility.
And don't tell anybody, because I'm going to break it on Monday night and see how Ehrlichman and Holloman react to it.
I've got to keep all these closely held.
But Brennan, let me say, Brennan, I'm prepared to go on, provided you can clear him with Fitzsimmons.
I can do that, Mr. President.
that I want him, but we don't want to talk to him unless Fitz will give us a signal.
And if he gives us a signal, then we will talk to Brennan.
Okay.
Now, do you have to curve Meany, too?
Well, I think— Schultz.
No, I think what I would do is talk to Brennan, and then— Brennan will curve Meany.
No, then I'd let George Schultz talk to Meany.
Now, Schultz, as I understood it, Mr. President, on his last conversation with Meany, he said that
And he said, whoever the boss wants.
Yes, yes, I know, I know.
But, yeah.
But I'm sure that if I put Fitz in the job, he'd go up the wall.
Oh, he'd go crazy.
That's right.
You see what I mean?
That's right.
But Brennan... Brennan is, of course, out of his unions.
You know, he's out of the building trade.
I know, but he might think that we're putting... Well, no.
We put him in there, we're just simply removing a potential competitor.
That's exactly what you're doing.
You see that either.
Because the guy has to do things.
But what would make him that unacceptable leader is...
If he's going to go in there and do the job that you ought to have done, he's going in there and he's going to cut the butt Jesus out of the wage and hour division and the enforcement sections at Landrum Griffin.
Those things are bureaucratically important to the FFL-CIO, but they are deadly out in the field.
Yeah, but will Brennan do these things for us?
He's the one who's been bringing all these horrible bureaucratic problems to my attention.
He's the one who's been screaming the loudest about it.
But I mean he's for all these departments, huh?
Well, Meany isn't, but the bunch of New Deal Jews around him in the air for those years.
That's quite okay.
I've got the message.
All right.
My feeling is basically Brennan in that department.
That's what a labor man in the department.
And I think the woman—I mean, the business community deserves a kick in the ass anyway.
A woman in that thing just appeals to me.
It appeals to me.
It's just marvelous.
It really does.
Has she had business experience?
Not really.
Well, she runs a big ranch.
She's got some problems with confirmation, I think, because she's got wetbacks and that kind of, you run into that sort of thing.
Does she have wetbacks?
She called me one day when the Banuelos thing was going on.
She said she was very concerned about it because it could be blowing up with her because she can't help it.
She's near the border.
I don't think for any, I don't ever see them opposing a Banuelos for that job.
I mean, I'm ever opposing Ann Armstrong.
I mean, the Democrats would be up their goddamn... Crazy.
That's right.
Yeah, well, I think they hurt themselves when they opposed Manuel.
Sure.
I can't help this with the Spanish, but she's a little different.
She's not as smart.
I know, I know.
Ann Armstrong would
I'd lean to one of the two, Chuck, to either Armstrong.
I think we've got to go south for commerce.
And I think we can.
It doesn't make any difference.
But you could put Ann Armstrong or you could put Bo Callaway.
He'd be a damn good second choice, wouldn't he?
Yes.
Yeah.
Because he's a good spokesman.
He speaks well.
He's Georgia.
Right?
Yep.
He'd be terrific.
There's just one point I would like to make on Brennan, so you can keep this in your thought process.
The reason that I was against putting a labor guy into the Labor Department— Yeah, but that was the last report I had, so I didn't have you later.
Well, the reason for that was that—and I always have been—that he wouldn't dare to shake up the bureaucracy to the extent it has to be shaken up.
There's only one exception, and that's Brennan.
He's the one guy who I think would have
But we'd have to have the understanding with him.
Well, he would have to know in advance if that's one of the things we want to do.
Because he's been calling me for three years saying, for Christ's sake, these fellows— He sounds great to me.
They're justifying their existence.
They're creating jobs.
They're harassing the hell out of the labor movement.
Right.
At the local levels, they know they're doing what— Hello?
Yeah, I'm back here.
No, no.
But it's what the—there's some people around Jewish media that will say, well, that's bad, because they know— I know.
It's that—it's frankly—Media doesn't realize it, but it's the Jewish elite.
It's the old—it's the holdover from the old New Deal Jewish elite.
Well, absolutely, Mr. President.
And they create jabs back and forth between the building on 16th and— And they build each—and they build each other up and so forth, I know, and that's going to be changed.
The poor old Jim Hudson's problem is that not only is the
He hasn't been controlling the department.
He doesn't even know what's going on in the department.
I mean, he really literally does not.
On the IRS, incidentally, could Webster or Woody do it?
Oh, he would be spectacular.
He is so...
Does he know taxes?
Well, he publishes an annual compendium of analysis of changes in the tax law of the president.
That's my point, then.
He is a tax lawyer?
Oh, God, yes.
How old is he?
Fifty-two.
Would he take it?
Yes, sir.
Could he get confirmed?
Oh, he doesn't have to be confirmed, does he?
Yes, he does, but he would be easily confirmed.
My God, you know, I've been asked, why haven't you ever suggested his name for ours?
I have.
You have?
Yes, sir.
Well, where'd you suggest it?
At what level?
I mean, months ago, but not in the recent days.
Oh, I suggested it to Malik earlier this week.
I think they had him in Malik.
Well, IRS hasn't come up yet.
I don't think we get to that Tuesday or Wednesday.
Well, in my book, he's the number one choice in the country.
And incidentally, would he do what we want?
Well, he's like Brennan.
He's been sitting out there for four years saying to us, why the Christ don't you use that agency the way the Democrats used it?
He said, you guys are nuts.
You've only had one man in that whole agency that's been able to understand the problems.
Now, Webster was in line for it when we put Wallace in.
Good, good, good.
I got the message.
What was that?
Boy, that Webster thing just sounds great to me.
I've just been looking for a good tax lawyer who would— Well, he's the kind of fellow—he's the only one I know who's as mean as I am if he thinks there's a chance to destroy the opposition.
And he gives an annual seminar here in Washington on tax law changes, which 3,000 people tell him.
That's enough.
What is your feeling, incidentally, about
The big play, one of the biggest plays we're making, of course, I've got to get Elliott out of HEW because he's part of the bureaucracy.
On the other hand, I've got to have somebody in defense.
We've got the Undersecretary Clements from Texas, who's a tough, mean bastard, and a hawk.
So the suggestion has been made, put Elliott there because Elliott will work with Henry.
It depends.
What do you think of that?
I don't think you could find a better man.
I really don't.
Well, but there's only one thing Henry raises.
Henry says he's awful close to the
the Brookings McNamara system analysis type.
And, for example, Eliot has taken with him over two defense— Yeah, Larry Lynn.
Larry Lynn and also Jonathan Moore, both of whom are nice people but just irrepressible doves.
You see, I'd have to lay it into Eliot that he couldn't take those people back over.
I mean, that's up to him.
What do you think, though?
Would you want Elliott?
I think we should keep Elliott in government.
I think that's saying he's a good man.
Absolutely.
But what's your view on that?
Well, I think you could handle Elliott.
Elliott is a very responsive guy, much more responsive than anybody gives him credit for.
The difficulty he had at HGW, Mr. President, is that we let him go and let the bureaucracy sort of take Elliott along.
Elliott was never taken in by it.
We didn't hit him hard.
Any time you ever hit Elliot Richardson hard, he responds.
He is a political animal, I think.
Right.
Do you think he'd be a good secretary of defense?
He'd be a superb secretary of defense.
Of course, it builds him up terrifically, too.
Well, number one, of course, that's where his interest is, in the international defense area.
He's just as smart as a whip, as you well know.
He's totally loyal to you.
only has to be told.
I mean, I think that's the thing about Elliott.
If you were to say to Elliott, we're just not going back into the McNamara syndrome.
It occurred to me that when we talked about Collins earlier that it just would be wrong to take another fellow from Massachusetts.
That was his name.
That's why I decided that we ought to go south for that man.
Yeah, bad signal.
I agree.
I reward our friends.
Well, to me it's like putting a block into the gas, I guess.
For that reason.
Well, anyway, let's leave it this way.
Only for curiosity's sake, see if your people really can't get a more solid line of figures and put somebody that you have real confidence in doing it.
Would you do that?
I will in the morning.
I mean, I'm telling them we're not interested in getting—I don't want to know what they would like the figures to be.
I want to know what they are, you see.
I'm going to—yes, I'll do that.
And the fellow that I had do it a week ago.
The second thing is, would you check your operation to see what in the hell has happened?
They're trying to get out the compendium, and if anything else can be done, the compendium of what we have done for the Congressman Center.
Did they get it even in Kevin Phillips?
I mean, I told you— Oh, my God, I spent time myself with Kevin Phillips.
You can't sell it to Kevin Phillips.
He thinks that we—
He belongs to the other school of thought.
He thinks that we should have done more.
Like what?
Well, Phillips' argument is that we should have campaigned.
I said a campaign?
We should have been talking about we want a Republican victory.
No, you're so wrong.
Yeah, well, I mean, the point is, I tried myself to solve it, Kevin.
It just wouldn't sell.
What we have to do, Mr. President, when McGregor is back, he needs to have a press conference and talk about all the things that we did for the people all across the country.
This can be
And take the offensive.
Take the offensive.
But Dole ought to do it, too.
Well, that's another set of problems.
Yeah.
Dole's got to be told.
Yeah.
He's just calling me every day wanting to know what his future is.
But Dole is making such stupid statements to the effect that he plans to stay on.
He'll kill himself in Kansas.
I hope you've told him that, or have you?
I've tried to.
Dole's a very hard fellow to tell things about, too.
Wow.
Yeah, I've tried to.
The thing we've got to do with Bob is just call him in and say,
way of the land and this is the way it is and for God's sake, for your own sake, go out of here with a pair on the back and that's all.
Go out when you're on top.
Go out when you're riding high.
Because you know, whether or not the Republican Party can be rebuilt, Chuck, is very, very questionable.
I mean, we'll do our best, but not because it couldn't be done.
but because basically your leadership in the states is so bad.
I mean, frankly, in California, it's Reagan, and you can't do it around him.
He's got to do it, and Reagan is a drag.
Understand?
And Michigan, you aren't going to rebuild the Republican Party in Michigan as long as you've got that fellow's governor.
Massachusetts, no way.
No.
Mexico, yes, you can do something there.
You might do something in New Jersey.
Rockefeller, maybe in New York if he can keep the conservatives in line.
Illinois, there is no Republican Party in Illinois today.
You know that.
Ohio, shattered because of the Saxby fight with Taft.
It still gets down to states, doesn't it?
It gets down to that, Mr. President.
It also gets down to the Connolly theory, which I totally agree with it.
people vote for one man for the presidency and the no-turn-right army deliberately vote the other party to keep a balance, because they don't want too much government.
What they're really saying is we want to kind of keep that government semi-paralyzed.
If we're afraid to ever give them too much power again, like Johnson had, we'll go crazy.
Let me say, incidentally, though, that on speaking of power and the rest,
I think the best thing we're doing is getting this goddamn government reorganized, because if we hadn't done it now, the way these cabinet people are, good God, you know what they want to do?
They just want to sit in their ass on the same bureaucracy and continue doing what they're doing.
And they all think that, well, we would have won anyway.
That's right.
Do you agree?
Absolutely.
And I think the shake-up they're getting and the shake-up this bureaucracy is getting—I talked to Ziegler and said, sure, we're getting some flack in the Washington papers, but he says around the country it's been almost universally favorable.
People love it.
What do you find?
The same thing, that people think it's a damn healthy thing.
Now, the only place you begin to get any questions are from Republicans who begin to get worried, well, maybe we're shaking all of our own—
That's why you'd keep Morton.
Which one are we throwing out?
That's right.
I'm just saying the beginning.
You just get a little question about, well, what about this, what about that.
I think keeping Morton, that's what I would argue for, for doing that.
He would only realize he can't run anything.
But he's one that has party symbolism.
If you ever brought in Armstrong, my God, you'd make it.
You'd make it.
You really would.
The only area that's present, and I'll
I'll lay this out for you tomorrow night, but it gives me any cause for concern at all.
I know the battles that we've had in the White House.
We haven't had the media with us.
We haven't had the Congress with us.
You have needed around you some tools to mobilize the public.
And to get the leaders right over the heads of the media in the country on a one-on-one basis, you had to do some of that.
And I just don't want to see you lose that capability.
We not only have to have it there, Chuck, but we've got to have it outside, too.
I think we can do both.
I think we can do both.
But we cannot keep the huge apparatus we've had previously.
No, we don't need that.
I think, for example, if we have on the outside, if we have your operation on the outside with the levers of power where they know, plus the inside, but you need the inside capability too.
Otherwise you're going to have a situation where everybody around Klein and all the rest are going to want to stay.
We don't need them.
We don't want them.
The way a client sees this is we've got to inform the editors and keep an open administration.
That's all a bunch of crap.
No, no, bullshit.
You want to use them occasionally.
That's right.
When we can mail them something.
Are you still getting calls from CBS?
Oh, yeah.
Good.
They left a message this week saying that he would very much appreciate coming down at my convenience.
Just don't ever have to come.
Just let them wait, wait, wait, wait.
Oh, they've got the message, though.
My God.
The Washington Post must be getting the message, too.
But you see, you probably don't read it.
No, but I haven't followed papers lately.
Yesterday morning Kay Graham answered the charge that the Post was partisan during the campaign.
What did she say?
That it wasn't?
Yeah, just that it wasn't.
Because she made a very weak answer to the speech I gave last week.
Yeah, great.
But you see, you stirred them up.
Oh, my God.
I got a very interesting reaction to that.
Good.
I'm literally a floated man.
A lot of people I've never heard of.
People just tickled it out there.
Yeah, it was amazing.
Finally somebody said it.
And a hell of a lot from Los Angeles, which I guess is probably our right wing.
Oh, good.
We're having some fun.
Yes, indeed.
Oh, you're absolutely right.
Well, I had planned to keep it, but now the point is that have you thought of anybody who can be the man that we put in basically your position?
See, what we need is to have a guy in charge.
Could Clausen be the fellow?
See, we need a guy in your position, Chuck.
So that when you're outside, so that you hired him.
That's what I told all of them yesterday.
I said, Colson must hire him.
And then you've got to stay in just long enough to launch him.
And that's all you need to do.
And then that'll be done.
That's all I wanted to know.
Now, could Clawson be the man?
I think so.
I've been thinking about that.
The only people that need to be retained, Mr. President, Belzano, because it's a big signal to a lot of people.
Rogers, because you've got to have a little bit of labor.
Right.
And Clawson.
And you need...
And beyond that, you don't need anything except just a couple of, well, damn good— Would you put Clawson in and basically make him the information man or make—or really keep—give him another—that damn information thing, you know, we've got to keep the office just for purposes of appearance.
If somebody suggests maybe just give war on that, let him fart around with that sort of stuff, but, because he's not a bad fellow.
No, he's a good fellow.
But what would you think?
Well, he understands it.
He also understands it.
No, but I mean, what I want Claussen for is not for information.
I want him for nut cutting.
That's right.
See?
That's right.
Well, you could leave him.
You could, it wouldn't make any difference, Mr. President, whether you just let him do it.
Yeah, but can Claussen manage?
Have you ever seen whether he could manage his staff?
Can he hire his staff?
Is he good at that sort of thing?
Yeah, I think he's damn good at that.
He's, he's... How's his judgment?
See, judgment is good.
Now, the place where he's weak is he hasn't, well, no, he's got more, but I was going to say he hasn't had the exposure to the people outside that you have to know.
The thing that you have to give to, but you see, the point is, there is a place where you can give the stroke.
You see, what we need is, the only way your thing will work
is to have the man in and the man out.
You see my point?
That was the point I did.
Now if you have that, and then it's all known.
Like the way I would do this, I would call in and I would call in Fitz and we could do all about ten minute appointments.
Paul Hall, others, and I said, we're going to set this up and this is the folks going to see Chuck's going to have this law firm and so forth.
Incidentally, did Bob pass on to you my thought that I thought you should set up
basically a polling organization.
No, that's a very interesting idea.
Well, what I thought was not your own polling organization.
I mean, it's so much as that you'd sort of be in charge of polls.
And then we go all through the government and be sure that no polls are taken except by people that we want.
Then you feed them out.
In other words, feed them to that, so forth and so on.
You feed them to Sittlinger, feed them to Harris, and even to Gallup.
I mean, the point is, let's just get the polling done our own way.
How about you?
We're having many of our enemies poll at the present time.
Well, the reason, of course, we brought Harris around was to get to the point where we were writing his stuff.
That's right.
We were important to him business-wise.
That's right.
But I thought that if you could set up—what I was thinking of the way you could do it would be under the cover of maybe
You remember Spencer Roberts in Los Angeles?
Yes, sir.
Maybe you set up outside your law office.
And I wouldn't put it in names.
I wouldn't call it Colson or something like that.
I would just say Washington Associates or something like that.
See my point?
Yes, sir.
And get a good, high-sounding name.
And then you'd go out and we'd know where to go.
You'd do the polling.
Now the foundation is the other thing that is terribly important, and they're—what you do, I don't know.
Well, I think what we ought to do, Mr. President, frankly, is to get one big contributor, the DeWitt-Wallace type fella, to put enough money into
which is presently going at $2 million a year.
The EEI would be still a pretty good vehicle as well.
Well, change its name.
In other words, if DeWitt Wallace would have put his money at it, you'd call up the DeWitt Wallace Foundation, get rid of the American Enterprise Institute, which is a lousy name.
But they've got an ongoing operation with $2 million a year.
They've got a hell of a now computer bank of academics.
They're right at the verge of being what we want.
Our bookings.
Our bookings.
And then, of course, Brookings is cut off right at the hip, Parker.
Totally.
I told Weinberger, who I still have— Check them all out.
Just get all their contracts.
There'll be no more from the federal government, period.
No speakers.
And no speakers.
That's the main thing.
Because they use the speakers as a chump.
Oh, of course.
They pull them out of that State Department.
And I just looked at next week's list of speakers and discovered that we've got three going over.
I just said no.
Did you get that?
Did you get it canceled?
Well, I... Well, you've got to get Stein to quit going over there, too.
Well, he's been one of the biggest offenders because he came from there.
I know.
But we can get that under control.
That's the kind of thing.
But you see, the point I made to Holman Friday, which I assume he raised with you from what you're saying, you've got to have somebody in the White House who does a few essential functions, one of which is to enforce this.
In other words, I've been...
I've been doing that to the extent I could, but Ehrlichman doesn't have time for it, and Bob doesn't have time for it.
You really have to have someone who is enforcing the discipline that is necessary to accomplish what has to be accomplished, who's kind of a counterpart with all the things that are going on on the outside, and that can be the guy that does the mobilizing and the public support when you need it.
I understand.
I understand totally.
You've got to have the capability.
And I talked to Connolly yesterday on the phone.
He was in Texas.
And he agreed, we've got to have the capability.
He thinks the capability with a lower profile, having in mind that the election is over.
And he's totally in
on the thing of having the outside operation.
He said, you've been damn fools not to have a Clark Clifford and so forth.
And he's delighted with that.
So he sees the whole thing.
Well, I talked to Kenley.
On Friday, he just said, you get out, Chuck.
He said, I think you can do so much in the Clifford type of operation.
One last point we're going to talk about.
What is your feeling, Chuck, about the Dent office?
to retain that... Well, what I would do... You see, we have nobody in the political field at the present time.
Could you see?
Haldeman and Ehrlichman are not considered to be basically loyal Republicans, but what would you do there?
I would have... Let me ask you something.
Dan has a sick wife, but she's now got her in Washington.
Suppose he'd be willing to stay.
Would that be the best solution?
Who, Harry Dan?
Yeah.
I think it's... Yeah, I do.
I think Harry would be the best.
Everybody knows him and so forth.
And he's symbolic.
If he would stay, he is.
My thought was, and I told this to Bob, that you take the Colson operation, which was basically to reach out into the country and mobilize public support.
You take one person like Colson, who can deal with colonists and when you need to.
Not that they—we're not doing anything for them, but we want to use them.
And the political operation, and you put it all together in one low profile, small, tight,
But at least you've got a place people can go to.
You've got a place with a nut cut.
And have the stuff prepared.
Like you would force then Ehrlichman to—which through his deals and through our strength—you see, we're going to name all the PIOs out through the government now anyway—we would then force them to prepare the counterattack materials.
We don't have them.
It's a weak read, but they're—
But we'll see.
We'll see when we get there.
That's an area that—that would depend, Mr. President.
Because Buchanan will still be here.
That's right.
And if you make it—we did this during the campaign.
We made Buchanan the editor-in-chief, and he reviewed everything that was prepared.
And then I funneled it up to the— Then the other thing you would do would be what, beyond that?
You'd have Clausen in it, but what would you do with the political outside, like the—how do you have the party represented?
You'd have Dent or a person like that.
You have Belzano, Rogers, and then, of course, Buchanan for writing and editing, and then probably just a couple of very low, I mean, very hippie types who can just keep everything running.
That's basically what you need.
What do you do about, basically, what we call the Dent office?
I'd either have Harry or one man like him.
And if I were you, where would you put him?
I'd put him under the same umbrella of the...
What would you call this office?
Well, what it really is is the outside contact office.
That's really what you're talking about.
We could just call it the— What do you call it?
The general— Find a name, but the point is that's what it is.
You'd have them all under that kind of an operation.
They all ought to work together, be under the same roof.
Well, they really have to, and there are times when you're going to need to reach out.
Right.
That's the group, frankly, Mr. President, that reaches out for you.
It's kind of a switchboard, and it's there to— Right.
I mean, even though you're going to move a lot of responsibilities out to departments, you kind of use this operation to funnel people.
I mean, if Marzullo or Rizzo has a problem, they've got a place they can call, and you refer them out to the department.
The political people, they want liaison.
They know at least where they can come and talk.
It gives me, on the outside, someone to work with every day, rather than bothering John or Bob.
It's a sounding board.
It's the place you purge the enemy.
It's the nut cutting.
It's where you do work on getting the attack line out when you need one.
It can be very, you know, very small, but you, depending on just having good people in it, if you had a combination of a
Well, Mickey Gardner's not a Republican.
No, but that's—
I'd have—well, who the hell's going to be the—you've still got to have somebody to be in contact with the National Committee types, that's what I mean.
That's right.
Don't you agree?
I do.
Gardner, I'd love to get him for anything.
Well, I'm trying to, because I'd like to get him to work in this general area or somewhere.
I'm going to have an office that does that.
He would be great, because he's a terribly shrewd young fellow.
No, you need one man who, like Harry Dent, is recognized as the political guy.
If Harry would stay, he'd be fine.
If Harry wouldn't stay—
I think I could—I'm sure there are four or five— We could find somebody, yeah.
Oh, sure.
Some of the best people that developed out of the campaign, basically.
That's what it is.
Oh, we've had some good ones.
We really did.
We had to do something right.
Put them right in there.
That's right.
Well, okay.
We'll see you tomorrow night.
I have a good agenda here, and I'll work on this before tomorrow.
Good.
Thank you, Mr. President.