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Conversation: 033-108

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Start Date: Sunday, November 19, 1972 2:35 PM

End Date: Sunday, November 19, 1972 2:35 PM

Participants:

Nixon, Richard M. (President)White House operatorColson, Charles W.

Recording Device: White House Telephone

033-108.mp3

NARA Description:

On November 19, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, White House operator, and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone at 9:35 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 033-108 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid:

Conversation No. 33-108

Date: November 19, 1972
Time: 9:35 am
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with the White House operator.

       Call from Charles W. Colson

       Call from Ronald L. Ziegler

The President talked with Colson between 9:35 am and 10:46 am.

       Colson's vacation
            -Warrenton, Virginia
            -Reason
                  -Death
            -1972 election
            -Virginia
                  -Weather

       Second term reorganization
            -Meeting at Camp David
            -President's message to Colson
                  -Colson, H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman, John D. Ehrlichman
                  -White House Staff
            -Herbert Klein
                  -Ziegler
            -Public relations [PR]
                  -Administration capacity
                         -Office name
                         -Klein
                               -Retention
                               -Departure
                                    -Timing
                                          -Age
                                    -Jack J. Valenti
            -Klein
                              - 111 -

              NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                        Tape Subject Log
                          (rev. June-07)

                                               Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

      -Job search
             -Timing
-Colson
      -Job offers
             -Colson’s conversations with Haldeman
-Scheme
      -The President’s recent conversation with Haldeman
-Meeting with Colson
      -Plans
-Departures
      -Colson
      -John A. Scali
      -Klein
-PR
      -Kissinger
      -John D. Ehrlichman
      -Capability
             -Republican National Committee and Republican Congressional
             Leaders
                  -Clout
                  -Motivation
                         -Colson’s conversation Haldeman
                              -White House access
      -Max M. Fisher
      -Leonard Garment
             -Retention
             -Bicentennial
      -Donald F. Rodgers
-Peter J. Brennan
      -Labor Department
      -Transportation Department
             -Brennan’s background
                  -Building trades
             -Judgment
      -Department of Housing and Urban Development [HUD]
             -Super-cabinet
             -Model cities
      -Transportation Department
             -Labor problems
                               - 112 -

              NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                         Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. June-07)

                                                Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

                  -International Brotherhood of Teamsters
                         -Regulation
      -Labor Department
      -Frank E. Fitzsimmon's reaction
-Transportation Department
      -Teamster’s official
-Brennan
      -Job offer
            -Paul Hall's reaction
-Fitzsimmons
      -Possible meeting with President
            -George Meany
                  -George P. Shultz
            -Review of Brennan job offer
-Brennan
      -Fitzsimmons
            -Colson’s influence
                  -John H. (“Jack”) Lyons
-Fitzsimmons
      -Meany
            -Neutrality in 1972 election
-Aid to President in 1972 election
-Meany
      -Shultz
-1972 Democratic National Convention
      -Teamsters endorsement of the President. July 17, 1972
      -Meany
            -Neutrality
-Conversation with Colson
-Brennan
      -Appointment
-Cabinet
      -John A. Volpe
            -Travel
      -Richard E. Kleindienst
            -Travel
      -James D. Hodgson
            -Shultz
            -Retention
                               - 113 -

               NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                         Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. June-07)

                                                 Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

-Labor Department
     -J[ames] Curtis Counts
     -Colson’s conversation with Roy L. Ash
-Cabinet
     -Italian-Americans
            -Michael P. Balzano, Jr.
                   -Readiness
            -Scali
                   -Haldeman
                   -United Nations [UN]
                          -Possible black appointee
                   -Commerce Department
     -Blacks
            -Appointments
                   -Colson’s conversation with Haldeman
            -Walter E. Washington
                   -Ambassadorship
     -UN ambassadorship
            -Scali
                   -Loyalty
                   -UN staff
                          -George H. W. Bush
                          -Interest
                                -Colson’s conversation with Scali
                                -Colson’s conversation with Haldeman
                                -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman's reaction
                   -Discussion with President
            -Haldeman
                   -The President
                          -White House staff schedule
                   -Washington
            -Blacks
                   -Washington
                   -First term compared to second term
            -Level
            -Symbolism
                   -Americans
     -Italians
            -Herbert F. DeSimone
                        - 114 -

        NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                  Tape Subject Log
                    (rev. June-07)

                                         Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

            -Rhode Island
            -Abilities
                  -Commerce Department
            -Peter G. Peterson’s recommendation
            -Record as Rhode Island Attorney General
      -Joseph L. Tauro
            -Judgeship
-Peterson
      -European post
-Commerce Department opening
-Labor Department
      -Shultz recommendation
            -John L. Dunlop
                  -Harvard University
                  -The President’s conversation with Shultz
-Make-up
      -Second term compared to 1968
-Labor Department
      -Brennan
            -Meany’s view
                  -Meany’s conversation with Shultz
                  -Labor problems
                  -Appointment of unionist
                        -Transportation Department
                  -Colson’s view
                  -Possible fear of reform
                        -Colson’s conversation with Ash
                        -American Federation of Labor
      -Congress of Industrial Organizations [AFL-CIO] bureaucracy
                              -16th Street
      -Reforms
            -Bureau of Labor Statistics [BLS]
                  -Shultz
                        -Colson’s conversations with Ash, Haldeman
-Ash
      -Recruitment
            -Catholicism
-Shultz
      -Catholicism
                                         - 115 -

                          NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                                    Tape Subject Log
                                      (rev. June-07)

                                                          Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

                            -Helena M. (“Obie”) Shultz
                            -Publicity
                                  -Ash
                 -Brennan
                      -Labor Department
                            -Compared to Transportation Department
                      -State level background
                            -Control by bureaucracy
                      -Job offer
                            -Acceptance
                                   -Problem
                                         -Successorship to Meany
                      -Speaking ability
                            -Thomas W. (“Teddy”) Gleason
                 -Appointments
                 -UN ambassadorship
                      -Black
                 -Blacks
                      -Appointments


*****************************************************************
[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

      1972 election
           -Landslide
                  -Black vote
           -Latest figures
                  -Percentage of votes
                        -New York Times
                  -Absentees
                        -Republican congressman in Washington state
                              -Tomas Pelly
                  -Turn-out
                  -Gordon L. Allott
                        -Absentee votes
                        -Margin
                              -Recount
                                    -Richard L. Roudebush
                                           - 116 -

                           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                                     Tape Subject Log
                                       (rev. June-07)

                                                             Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)


[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
*****************************************************************


      Second term reorganization
           -Gordon L. Alliott
                 -Possible appointment
                        -Unknown Canadian commission
                        -Location
                              -Washington, DC
                        -Ambassadorship
                              -Spanish speaking people
                                   -Colorado
                        -Location
                              -Washington, DC
                        -Forthcoming election
           -Jack R. Miller
           -John H. Chafee
           -Louie B. Nunn
           -Fletcher S. Thompson
           -Defeated Congressmen
                 -Fred Schwengel
                 -John H. Kyl
                        -Possible Assistant Secretary or Under Secretary of Agriculture
           -George D. Webster
                 -Miller
                 -Previous meeting with the President
                 -Background

*****************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 7
[National Security]
[Duration: 2s ]
[Subject: Personnel]

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 7
*****************************************************************
                                            - 117 -

                           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                                      Tape Subject Log
                                        (rev. June-07)

                                                               Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

                      -Lawyers for Nixon
                  -Comparison with Lloyd N. Cutler

      Lawyers
           -John B. Connally
                 -Passports
                 -Clark M. Clifford
                       -Conversation with the President
                       -Conversation with Colson
                            -Treasury Department
           -Peter M. Flanigan
           -Cabinet
      Second term


*****************************************************************
[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

      1972 election
           -Colson’s conversation with Webster
                  -Miller
                        -Defeat
           -Allott
                  -Defeat
                  -Peter H. Dominick
                  -Robert C. (“Bob”) Wilson
           -Republican defeats
                  -The President’s recent conversation with Haldeman
                  -Publicity about the President’s efforts for candidates
                        -Photographs
                        -Television
                        -Senate
                        -Audio recordings
                        -Phone calls
                        -Vice President Spiro T. Agnew
                        -The President’s visits
                        -Kenneth W. Clawson
                        -Scali
                        -Patrick J. Buchanan
                              - 118 -

              NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                         Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. June-07)

                                                Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

      -Dominick attacks
      -The President's visits
             -Colorado
                  -Allott
                         -Support for the President
      -Dominick
             -Work with White House
             -Work on Hill
             -Colson’s view
      -Wilson
             -House of Representatives
      -Connally’s view
      -Reasons
             -The President's landslide
                  -Balance in Congress
                  -Rhode Island
-The President's victory
      -North Carolina
      -Oklahoma
      -Kentucky
      -Michigan
             -Busing issue
      -Democratic areas
-Wilson
-Clarence J. (“Bud”) Brown, Jr.
      -Victory
      -Criticism of Committee to Reelect the President [CRP]
             -Expenditure of funds
      -Democrats
-Figures
      -Percentages
      -Number of votes for the President
      -Number of votes for George S. McGovern
      -Accuracy
             -Associated Press [AP] statistics
      -Inaccuracies
      -McGovern Notes
      -AP figure
      -Colson's figures
                                           - 119 -

                          NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                                    Tape Subject Log
                                      (rev. June-07)

                                                         Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

                       -Sources
                 -Allott's margin
                       -Absentee ballots
                       -Colorado
                 -Washington state
                 -Final figure
                       -Certification
                             -Dates
                 -Analysis
                       -Report to President
                       -McGovern's figures
                 -Problems
                       -Accuracy
                       -Press reports
                       -Calls to states
                 -California
                       -Absentees
                       -AP
                 -Colorado
                       -McGovern votes
                       -AP figures
                 -States
                       -Secretaries of State
                             -Telephone calls
                                    -Newspaper figures
                                    -Latest figures
                 -Connally
                 -Percentage
                       -Impact of historic landslide
                             -Margin

[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
*****************************************************************


      Second term reorganization
           -Brennan
                 -Fitzsimmons's reaction
                 -Labor department
                         - 120 -

         NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                   Tape Subject Log
                     (rev. June-07)

                                           Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

-Transportation Department
       -Labor Department
             -Rodgers
                   -Cooperation
                         -Shultz
-Balzano
       -Work with Democrats
             -Vito Marzullo
                   -Republican Party
                   -Vote for the President
                   -Office of Economic Opportunity [OEO]
             -Mario A. Procaccino
-Republicans
       -Republican National Committee [RNC]
-Businessmen
       -Commerce Department
-Jews
       -Spokesmen in White House
             -Garment
             -Herbert Stein
-Transportation Department
       -Brennan
       -Ethnic appointment
             -Rocco C. Siciliano
             -Benjamin F. Biaggini
                   -Support for President in 1972 election
                         -Donald McI Kendall
             -Robert F. Lanzillotti
                   -Price Commission
-Italian-Americans
       -Transportation Department
       -Businessmen
             -Commerce Department
                   -Importance
             -Kendall
                   -Recommendations
       -DeSimone
             -Department of Justice
                   -Rhode Island Attorney General
                                            - 121 -

                          NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                                      Tape Subject Log
                                        (rev. June-07)

                                                            Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

                            -Scali
                                     -Significance
                                           -Symbolism
                                                 -UN ambassadorship
                                                 -Visibility
                                           -Remarriage
                 -Southerners
                      -Winton M. (“Red”) Blount
                      -Howard (“Bo”) Calloway
                            -Commerce Department
                            -Calloway Gardens
                            -Work with Colson
                                  -1968 campaign
                 -Rogers C.B. Morton
                      -Performance as administrator [of Interior Department]
                      -Role in Cabinet
                            -Congress
                      -Retention
                            -Visibility
                            -Contacts with Republican Party


*****************************************************************
[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

      Republican Party
           -Contacts with the White House
           -Maintenance of majority coalition
           -Discontent
                 -The President’s support for members of Congress
                 -Lack of communication
           -Robert J. Dole
                 -Retention at Republican National Committee
                       -Senate campaign
                       -Problems
                             -Robert B. Docking
                 -Role in campaign
                       -Spokesperson
           -Anne L. Armstrong
                                         - 122 -

                         NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                                   Tape Subject Log
                                     (rev. June-07)

                                                           Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

              -Chairperson appointment
                     -Texas, Southern background
                     -Abilities
                     -Comparison with Jean Westwood
          -Democratic Party
              -Infighting
                     -Media coverage

[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
*****************************************************************


     Second term reorganization
          -Anne L. Armstrong
                -Appointment
                      -Visibility
                -Commerce Department
                      -Background
                            -Texas
                                   -Ranch
                      -Compared to Calloway
                      -Advantages
                            -Contacts with Republican Party
                                   -Compared to Colson’s and Roger’s contact with labor
                      -Interest in position
                      -Advantages
                            -Texas Republicans
                                   -Background
                                          -South
                                          -Political orientation
                                   -Personality
                      -Confidentiality
                      -Ehrlichman
                      -Haldeman
          -Brennan
                -Labor Department
                      -Fitzsimmon’s concurrence
                      -Meany
                            -Shultz contacts
                                  - 123 -

                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                            Tape Subject Log
                              (rev. June-07)

                                                    Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

                      -Building trades
                      -Competition
                -Reforms
                      -Wage and Hour division
                      -Enforcement sections
                      -Philip M. Landrum-Robert P. Griffin Act
                      -Impact on the AFL-CIO
                            -Bureaucracy
                            -Meany
                                  -New Deal Jewish elites
    -Commerce Department
          -Armstrong
                -Business community
                -Experience
                      -Ranch
                -Confirmation problem
                      -Labor
                            -Mexicans
`                                 -Armstrong’s conversation with Colson
                                       -Roman Acosta Banuelos
                                              -Democrats
                                                    -Banuelos
                                                          -Spanish speaking voters
                -Compared to Banuelos
          -Commerce Department
                -South
                      -Armstrong
                      -Calloway
                            -Speaking ability
                            -Georgia
    -Brennan
          -Labor Department
                -Impact on bureaucracy
                      -Reforms
                -Meany opposition
                      -New Deal Jewish elites
    -Hodgson
          -Control of Labor Department
    -Internal Revenue Service [IRS]
                                - 124 -

               NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                         Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. June-07)

                                                  Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

      -Webster
             -Knowledge of taxes
                    -Publication of analysis of changes in tax law
             -Age
             -Acceptance
             -Conformation
             -Colson’s recommendation
                    -Fredric V. Malek
             -Loyalty to President
                    -Compared to Brennan
             -Use of agency
                    -Attacks on enemies
                          -Democrats
                    -Johnnie M. Walters
             -Background
                    -Tax law
             -Attacks on Democrats
             -Annual Seminar
-Elliot L. Richardson
      -Department of Health, Education and Welfare [HEW]
             -Bureaucracy
      -Defense Department
             -William P. Clements, Jr.
             -Work with Henry A. Kissinger
             -Kissinger’s concern
                    -Brookings Institution
                    -Robert S. McNamara
                    -System analysis
             -Laurence E. (“Larry”) Lynn, Jr. and Jonathan Moore
      -Abilities
      -Responsiveness
      -[HEW]
             -Difficulty
                    -Bureaucracy
             -Political sensitivities
      -Defense Department
             -Interests
             -Loyalty
             -McNamara
                                         - 125 -

                          NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                                   Tape Subject Log
                                     (rev. June-07)

                                                          Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

           -John F. Collins
                 -Possible appointment
                 -Massachusetts
                 -Compared to Blacks in cabinet


*****************************************************************
[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

      1972 election
           -Figures
                  -Accuracy
           -Republican defeats
                  -Publicity about the President’s efforts for candidates
                        -Kevin P. Phillips
                              -Complaints
                                    -Use of term “Republican”
                        -Clark MacGregor
                              -Press conference
                        -Dole
                              -Future in the party
                              -Republican National Committee [RNC] position
                                    -Kansas
                                    -Problems
                                    -Departure
                                    -Timing

      Republican Party
           -Rebuilding
           -State leadership
                 -Ronald W. Reagan
                       -California
                 -Michigan
                       -William G. Milliken
                 -Massachusetts
                       -Thomas J. Meskill
                 -New Jersey
                 -Nelson A. Rockefeller
                       -New York
                                          - 126 -

                          NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                                    Tape Subject Log
                                      (rev. June-07)

                                                            Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

                            -Conservatives
                -Illinois
                -Ohio
                       -William B. Saxbe, Robert A. Taft, Jr.
          -Party Loyalty
                -Connally theory
                -Ticket splitting
                       -Colson’s view
                -Decline
                -Public attention
                       -Limited government
                             -Lyndon B. Johnson

[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
*****************************************************************


     Second term reorganization
          -Necessity of shake-up
                -Bureaucracy
                -Popularity
                      -Ronald L. Ziegler
                             -Conversation with the President
                                    -Washington, DC newspapers
                      -Republican concerns
                             -Morton
                                    -Retention
                                         -Administrative ability
                             -Armstrong
                -Media and Congress
                -Mobilization of public
                -Size of staff in the White House
                -Colson’s work
                      Work with the White House
                -Klein
                      -Retention
                      -View
                             -Informing editors, keeping open administration
                -Media
                              - 127 -

              NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                        Tape Subject Log
                          (rev. June-07)

                                               Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

            -Columbia Broadcasting System [CBS]
                  -Telephone calls to Colson
                  -William S. Paley
                        -Meeting with Colson
            -Washington Post
                  -Partisanship charge
                        -Katharine L. Graham’s response
                              -Colson’s recent speech
      -Colson’s recent speech
            -Reaction
                  -Mail
                        -Los Angeles
                  -Los Angeles Herald-Examiner
-Colson’s replacement
      -Kenneth W. Clawson
      -Selection
            -Colson’s role
                  -The President’s conversation with Haldeman
      -Clawson
-Retentions
      -Balzano
      -Rodgers
      -Clawson
-Clawson
      -Role in the White House
-Information office
      -Gerald L. Warren
-Clawson
      -Role
      -Managerial ability
      -Judgment
            -Contacts
                  -Colson
-Fitzsimmons
-Hall
-Colson’s future
      -Law firm
      -Possible polling organization
            -Haldeman
                              - 128 -

              NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                        Tape Subject Log
                          (rev. June-07)

                                               Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

          -Control of government polls
          -Release of data
          -Albert E. Sindlinger
          -Louis P. Harris
          -George H. Gallup
          -Harris
                -Work with administration
          -Spencer Roberts
                -Los Angeles
          -Name of organization
                -Washington Associates
     -Foundation
          -Contributor
          -DeWitt Wallace
          -American Enterprise Institute [AEI]
                -Funding
                -Name change
                -Funding
                -Brookings Institute
                -Caspar W. (“Cap”) Weinberger
                -Ash
                -Contacts from government
                -Speakers
                       -State Department
                       -Cancellation
                       -Stein
                       -Cancellation
                              -Enforcement
-White House discipline
     -Colson’s conversation with Haldeman
     -Need for enforcement person
          -Ehrlichman
          -Haldeman
          -Mobilization of public support
          -Connally’s view
                -The President’s recent conversation with Connally
                       -Texas
                       -White House capability
                              -1972 election
                                - 129 -

               NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                          Tape Subject Log
                            (rev. June-07)

                                                  Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

                    -Counterpart to Clifford
             -Colson’s discussion with Connally
-Harry S. Dent’s office
      -Political field
      -Haldeman and Ehrlichman
      -Betty Dent
             -Health
             -Washington, DC
      -Dent’s retention
-Colson’s office
      -Colson’s conversation with Haldeman
      -Purpose
             -Mobilization of public support
      -Clawson
             -Work with columnists, editors
      -Political operation
             -Counterattack materials
                    -Ehrlichman
                    -Public Information Officers [PIOs]
-Patrick J. Buchanan
      -Retention
      -Review of materials
      -Clawson
-Republican Party
      -Dent
      -Balzano
      -Rodgers
      -Buchanan
      -Lawrence M. Higby
-Dent’s office
      -Name
      -Purpose
             -Outside contacts
                    -Work with other offices
                          -Switchboard function
                          -Departments
                    -Liaison functions
                          -Marzullo, Frank L. Rizzo
                          -Attacks on enemies
                                               - 130 -

                            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY

                                      Tape Subject Log
                                        (rev. June-07)

                                                           Conversation No. 33-108 (cont’d)

                  -Size
                  -Clawson, Dent, Balzano, Rodgers
                  -Mickey Gardner
                  -Liaison with RNC
                  -Gardner
                        -Recruitment
                  -Harry Dent
                        -Replacement
                              -1972 campaign
             -Meeting with the President
                  -Colson agenda