Conversation 038-037

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Hello?

Yes, sir.

Oh, did you survive?

Well, yes, it was fairly tolerable.

I thought it was one of their better ones.

Yeah, it ended pretty quick, and the entertainment wasn't too long.

Right, right.

Good talk.

I thought it came off rather well.

Well, it was well done.

You know, the one thing that, as I said, I do rather well, if I may say so, is to

I've seen presidents do this before, and I'm really the only one that can get up there.

Of course, I'm prepared, but I can make a ten-minute talk and say something, and a little quip and something quite serious, too, which I thought was worth saying.

Getting a little lift at the end.

I was with the UPI people and the diplomatic correspondent for UPI.

Yeah, it was extremely, extremely complimentary.

What did he say?

Well, he just said he thought it was awfully well done and that you're one of the few presidents who could come to a thing like this and deliver something with a serious content and bring it off.

And from him, I think that's...

You know, he's one of the thinkers in the crowd.

Just wanted to see what your plans were tomorrow.

I'm going to come in about 9 o'clock.

Right.

And see Strawn.

Good.

And I've got a couple of calls coming in, one from Combox Lawyer, and I want to see Dean in the morning also.

I've got him coming in, and then I thought I'd see Ziegler if I could work it in.

I'd kind of like to cover several bases.

Let me say, with Ziegler, the more I think about this, John, I think we ought to give him the full court.

Guess what?

I think we ought to give him the full court.

I don't think it's actually a hell of a lot of difference to hold on Dean and so forth.

I'd say since these charges have been made, I think that the men in the White House staff that have been charged and so forth,

have a right to be heard publicly, and that's that, under certain proper ground rules.

Okay.

Let me run that by Ron in the morning and get him accommodated to it, accustomed to it.

Yes, I know.

But isn't that really what we should do?

I feel it is.

Then you just start to separate out and everything.

You haggle around.

You don't get it.

And then maybe you can settle the goddamn thing tomorrow with them.

All right.

I'm sure I can on those.

See, because these charges are just flowing around and leaking and so forth, you can, you know, give them hell about that.

All right.

And then we just can't have that thing.

Right.

I was talking to Bob, and Bob made the point.

He says, well, just look at what will happen here.

He says, in a sense, so it'll be the evening news, basically.

You know what I mean?

They are going to run it live, not now.

Yeah.

And also, there are chances that how much the committee can do, particularly with Mitchell or somebody that he has attorney adjoining, go on for a while.

But the point is, Bob says, what do you want in the evening news?

You want either seven minutes of John Chancellor and Weicker interpreting what was said in the next secret session, or do you want

Well, that's a good point.

Is that something to be considered?

Sure is.

At least we get a little piece of it that way.

You know, you see a man looking honest and earnest and so forth, uh, denying it in a public forum where he just, you know, that's...

I just remember something he always said for splitting my time with him.

Are you planning to work tomorrow?

Well, I'll tell you, sure.

What I plan to do, I've got to do the church thing.

Sure.

And I had to crap around a little on that in the morning, and so I may not get there in the morning.

Well, anyway, you'll be busy all morning.

That's right.

I've got plenty of days.

So maybe in the afternoon, around 2 o'clock or so, if you want to chat with me, I'll be around.

Okay.

I'll leave word.

We'll see.

I'll do your other business and so forth.

John, too.

I wonder if we should reconsider if you shouldn't.

You've got to consider this.

Rather than having Colson go in there completely blind, give him at least a touch up.

Or do you think that's too dangerous?

Say that again.

I didn't hear.

Colson, rather than just saying nothing to him, if it just isn't well to say, look, they've

should know that Magruder is going to testify and so forth.

Or is that dangerous according to Clint?

I'm not so sure.

I have to call him anyway tomorrow.

He's got an urgent call in for me.

Another urgent call.

I don't think I want to say anything at all to him about John.

John, incidentally, I understand, was on CBS News and just hard-lined him.

Oh, I agree on John.

Yeah.

Not nobody but the recruiter.

That's what I meant.

Well, I can say something very brief.

I don't need to indicate that he said anything to me.

Yeah.

Did you understand that he has talked?

I mean...

Right.

I think I could safely go that far.

And say that he should know that before he...

Right.

I'll call him in the morning.

Let me put it this way.

I do think we ought to check at least.

Sure.

So that he doesn't, I mean, go in there and, well, frankly, I'm on the perjury route.

I understand.

I don't think he's in any danger on that.

Why wouldn't he be in any danger?

Because he's got his story and knows pretty well what they're going to say.

Yeah.

I think he's pretty pat.

But I will talk to him in the morning.

And give him a cautionary note.

Maybe just an urgent call.

Maybe just what we know.

Or it may be more of something on our friend.

He's got another guy hunting.

Is there any goddamn thing you can do about that either?

No.

I'd say I'm going to probably see Kleinbeen sometime tomorrow.

And if for any reason you don't find me there, that's probably where I am.

when the special prosecutors say, look, that is in view of the fact that the U.S. Attorney is now doing such a thorough job, and since there's going to be definite results from it, it would be a terrible reflection on the system of justice.

Right.

And this administration would be, in effect, admitting that the Justice Department was so corrupt that we couldn't prosecute.

But God Almighty, if they prosecute the former Attorney General, Jesus, John, what more can you ask for?

Pretty loose.

Pretty independent.

I really feel that.

Yeah.

And...

special prosecutor thing can only open other avenues, potentially.

I don't mean that there's anyone to cover up, but, you know, you just go through it.

Yeah, I think it's just folly.

Don't you think so?

Yes, sir.

And that Dick could just say that there's a difference of opinion, but this is it.

Yeah, I'll do it.

But I've decided then that he...

He wants to talk to you about it, but I think I can take care of it tomorrow.

But if it's necessary for him to come in and me to tell him that, I'll tell him.

Well, I think I can hear that.

No, really, I'm not averse to it.

Okay.

I mean, my feeling, frankly, is this, that, you know, I was just thinking tonight as I was hanging up my notes for this little talk, you know, what the hell, it is, I mean, it is a little melodramatic, but it's totally true that what happens in this office in these next four years will determine

will probably determine whether there is a chance.

And goddamn, it's never a fortune that you could have some sort of an uneasy peace for the next 25 years.

And that's my, whatever legacy we have, hell, it isn't going to be a necessity for Winnetka.

It's going to be there.

And I just feel that I've got to be in a position to be a,

clean and forthcoming and so forth.

That's what I think.

Well, I totally agree with that.

The committee, so forth and so on.

I totally agree with that.

Reith, think a little bit more about the Haldeman thing.

My present thing is he raised it himself, you know, in this business.

But, God, I just

I think you've got to fight for somebody.

I don't know, but what's your feeling at the moment?

Well, I don't think he's in that bad shape.

I may be kidding myself, but I...

The only thing that concerns me is what they said about Strawn.

Yeah.

Well... You don't think that relates to... Let me talk to him tomorrow and just see how much of that we have to swallow.

He may object to some of that.

And with good basis.

So you've got to figure this, too, on Magruder, if I could suggest it.

Magruder probably believes he is telling what he knows.

On the other hand, this happened a long time ago, and Magruder is a very facile liar.

Yes.

And he could well be thrashing around a bit here and drawing conclusions and so forth and so on.

He believes his own stories.

Yes.

What do you think?

I mean, because some of this...

I tell you, they told me that he was an extremely credible witness.

And I can see why.

He comes across very sincere, very earnest, and very believable.

But of course, you have to balance what he says.

A lot of what he says I have no way of

corroborating or not corroborating.

That's what he says, but the fact that he was very believable when he lied.

Yeah, that's what I say.

Now the question is, how much of this is the truth and how much is it something he believes to be the truth?

Well, about the only thing I can say is that it sounded credible, but I can't vouch for it, obviously.

And that's one of the reasons I want to get Gordon in.

One last thing.

How do you see the Mitchell scenario rolling out to a John?

put yourself in his position and just sort of ruminate a bit and tell me how you see it rolling out.

Well, I would... You are convinced he will be indicted, are you?

Yes.

You are?

I don't think there's one chance in 50 that he won't be.

All right.

No.

The court will open and publish him.

And then, uh, he will probably arrange to come down and take the livery of the, uh... Dayton.

Dayton.

And, uh, I would guess he will hire F. Lee Bailey.

That would be my hunch.

Not a bad idea.

Bailey will...

He's got one problem in that the firm represents one of the other defendants, but, uh, he may be able to get around that.

And, uh...

whoever he gets will immediately move for a change of venue and file 89 motions.

Right.

Motions to quash.

Sure.

To disqualify the judge and attacking the legality of the grand jury and everything you can imagine.

Won't that take a little time?

Yes, sir.

You bet it will.

My hunch is that

As soon as you could get a case like that, the trial would be the fall, September, October.

Really?

Something of that kind.

Well, that leaves the committee hanging for a while, I suppose.

Well.

That's good or not.

I don't think they would let the committee proceed in the meantime.

You don't really?

I mean, they would use every effort to stop it, and I'm just guessing, but common sense tells me that they could stop it.

I don't know the law.

What long shot should you talk to Irvin?

Should I?

Yep.

Confide in him?

Not totally.

Oh, I don't think so.

I can't trust him.

Well, I don't trust him at all.

No, I can't.

I just wouldn't dare.

Right.

cleanings might at some later time.

You make the deal.

I think, frankly, let's get off of the goddamn executive privilege.

Get a little ride on it while we can.

Well, at least it's a...

I do think it will cool a little...

the congressional stuff, you know.

I really do.

I mean, if I read the congressional stuff, there's some with the Christ, they can't understand this and that and the other thing.

We're basically also, it's bold.

The president just says, there's enough of this nonsense and we're going to fight.

You see what I mean?

I get you.

Okay.

It puts the president in the position of

being as forthcoming as we can, want the facts out.

Yep.

And that's that.

And I'm not concerned about the word backing off and so forth.

The show's sure we'll back off.

So that's a story for about two days.

Yep.

Really?

Yep.

I think that's great.

We've won lots of things with the Congress.

We lose one.

But you, in interpreting it, would say, we've reached a compromise.

Right.

They will be limited to this, to charges of wrongdoing.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Mm-hmm.

And they came a long way on their rules.

The rules now are provide adequate protection for executive privilege.

And so the president says, have them all go.

Yep.

I think that's great.

But putting it in the point that

the president directed it.

I mean, I think the idea that the president has stepped into this damn thing and says, look, goddammit, let's get this stuff done.

And you go out and say the president says, look, we've had enough talk, enough pitching.

And I think, and incidentally, I wouldn't just do it lightly, but I think this lip

That ought to be, that is, the committee would hire, with knowledge, a bugger.

I don't know, doesn't that sound a little bad to you?

Yeah, we ought to be able to get a good write on that.

Maybe I'm being wishful thinking, but I think it's almost unbelievable that they know it.

And I think you should ask Irvin Irvin at the center, did you know this?

Don't you think so?

I ought to have some real fun with that.

But when you're in a battle, you're going to fight a goddamn battle.

You're going to fight it to the finish.

Fair enough.

The thing about Bob, as I say, is that I get back to a fundamental point.

Is he guilty or is he not?

In my view, he is not.

And if he isn't, Jesus Christ, even if it means that the whole country and the Congress and all members of the House and the Senate say,

resign, resign, the president says, no, I will not take an innocent, I'm a man who is innocent.

That's wrong.

That's contrary to our system, and I'm going to fight for him.

And if evidence is brought out to the contrary, fine.

But we will take a look at it.

Well, that's another reason for putting his statement out, it seems to me.

It's the standard that you're flying, so to speak.

Sure, they'll shoot at it.

But if they never hit it, why then, you know, there's no room for argument.

We get that statement broadly circulated.

Yeah.

What about, incidentally, now about the thrill of frankly telling our own leaders that and getting them maybe charged up a little on this and including the... Well, I've been doing a little thinking about that.

I'm not so sure until...

We wind out the whole judicial process here, the grand jury process, that you're really going to be in much of a position to do that.

I'll give that some more thought.

You mean because something's going to come out of the grand jury?

Yeah, you have sort of a half-told tale.

Yeah, you can say, well, look, I'm speaking just for the White House staff.

they're going to go up and testify.

Now, fellows, give them a chance.

That's what I meant.

I get you.

Well, that at least.

Sure.

And either give them a chance, and the president—then you say they've all given sworn statements on this thing, and we feel that we are to owe our day in court and so forth and so on.

Here's a copy of Haldeman's statement.

That's right.

Yeah, we could certainly do that without making reference to the other.

Including Agnew and so forth.

And we could trace the history of our attempt to cooperate with Irvin.

Tell him about that.

Well, at least we got a couple of light cracks in about tonight.

How about the executive privilege one?

That was very cute.

It's an executive privilege.

It was a second take.

All of a sudden they're talking and then whack.

I thought, after four years of confrontation, it's time for a negotiation.

I don't know if you can hear me laughing.

I think I was the loudest of anybody on that one.

That was great.

Very satisfactory.

I'll go up to the hill.

I won't eat it with you.

They don't eat pieces, but I will.

So forth, so down.

A little of that doesn't hurt a little.

Actually, that was a pretty enjoyable dinner, as those horrible things go.

We ran it well.

We got through about 1040, which is unusual.

Sure is.

Well, John, you've had a hell of a week, two weeks.

And, of course, poor Bob is going through the tortures of the dam.

Yeah, that family thing is rough.

I know the family thing, but apart from the family thing, you know, here's a guy that Christ has just given his life to ours and ours and ours.

You know, it's totally selfless and honest and decent.

That's another thing.

God damn it, the hell.

I'm just about to say, well, you know, you get the argument of some.

Anybody that's been charged against fire, Jesus Christ, I mean,

I can't do that.

Or am I wrong?

No, you're right.

Well, maybe I'm not right.

I'm asking.

Well, if you are.

You'd say, clean the boards.

Well, is that our system?

Well, that isn't a system.

That's, you know, that's a machine.

That's right.

But how do you feel, honestly?

I mean, you, because we, apart from the personal feelings we both have for Bob, don't you?

Because, you know, I raised this myself.

I said, well, one way out is to say, well, look, as long as all these guys have been charged

and then they can fight this battle and they can return and they get cleared.

Not good, is it?

Nope, I don't think it is.

I don't think that's any way to run a railroad.

I suppose that would probably be me to do with the purists.

What does Len think on that?

Does he think that really?

I don't know.

I think you have to show some

Well, the point is, you know, whatever we say about Harry Truman, you know, and so forth, well, it hurt him.

A lot of people admired the old bastard for standing by people who were really guilty as hell.

And, damn it, I'm that kind of person.

I'm not one that's going to say, look, the poor this guy's under attack.

I drop them.

Is there something to be said for that or not?

I don't think, number one, I don't think you gain anything by it, because the problem doesn't go away.

Oh, they'll say, oh, Jesus, that does show that Nixon here is top person, the closest man to him in the office four or five hours a day.

out he goes, that Christ, everything must be wrong.

And we've done so many good things, you know, which Bob has worked on so arduously.

So there will be fragments here and there.

Well, Christ, people make mistakes.

But you don't fire a guy for a mistake, do you?

Not for a well-intentioned mistake.

I just, I hope you're drawing up the line.

At one point, you're going to talk to Dean.

I am.

What are you going to say to him?

Well, I'm going to try and get him around a bit.

It's going to be delicate.

Get him around in what way?

Well, to get off this ass-in-the-buck business.

It's a little touchy, and I don't know just how far I can go.

That's not going to help you.

Look, he's got to look down the road to one point.

There's only one man that could restore him to the ability to practice law in case things go wrong.

He's got to have that in the back of his mind.

He's got to know that'll happen.

You know, you don't tell me, but you know and I know that with him and Mitchell, there's going to be a goddamn question.

Who?

Because we get a paragraph.

Goddamn it if we do.

It gets off with copying a plea and getting a suspended sentence.

Yeah.

What in the name of Christ is this all about?

Well, but it involves, of course, we have to be fair, it involves the highest...

The mildest.

the king of the mountain, trying to suppress the facts and so forth.

I think you thought I was sort of being facetious about saying, get everybody, all these people, and this includes LaRue and Marty, and of course, of course, Gombach.

They've got to have it, they've got to have a straight damn line that, of course we raise money, be very honest about it.

raised money for a purpose that we thought was perfectly proper.

We didn't want to shut them up.

These men were guilty.

And they were trying to shut them up.

We didn't want them to talk to the press.

Yeah, yeah.

That's perfectly legitimate, isn't it?

Or is it too legitimate?

I think it is.

I don't have a perfect understanding of the law on that.

Did you say that old Dick was really shaking?

Yeah.

Yeah, he was.

I told him once, I said, Dick,

And I said, the real target is Mitchell.

He said, well, no, it can't be.

He's got sort of the idea, I think, that probably it's Haldeman or Kolsak.

Well, I'm sure he's going to call me first thing in the morning.

Yeah.

But with him, I would be very tough.

I'd say Dick must not crap around.

I mean, they're after Mitchell.

They're going to get him at the present time.

That's what our evidence, that's what our information indicates.

So here's where we go.

Yeah, he's probably doing a little checking with his U.S. attorney tonight.

He do that?

Oh, sure.

Sure.

He has to make the ultimate prosecuting decision, or else he has to delegate it to somebody, so he's entitled to...

Your point is that he would delegate it to the dean.

I think the dean is the best one to delegate.

Yeah, I do, too.

Rather than, you know, rather than John, the suggestion that...

Well, he resigned, and then we'll put another attorney general.

That would be a hell of an admission that Christ, that we thought...

He isn't going to want to do that, would be my guess.

He isn't going to want to resign at this point.

He should.

Well, I don't want to come to think about it.

Basically, he should for other reasons.

She says we could get the Ellsberg case over.

I'd just like to get that FBI.

Is there any way at all that you can, you're going to talk to Ziegler, that you can get out the fact that you have conducted a thorough investigation?

We'll work on that.

I think there is.

I think we have to get that out, don't you?

I think so.

The president is calling the signals.

I suspect that somebody's going to put it together.

My hunch is the New York Times will.

They're going to put together, see, they have the story that Colson was in.

And I know that Mitchell was in.

panic versus all the wires have that Mitchell was in today.

They have.

So somebody's going to start stringing all this together.

And so what would happen?

You'd have Ziegler or yourself go out and say, yes, I have seen them, or you haven't thought them through?

Well, I think it wouldn't have to say I'd seen them.

We could just say that

We've had a job of work going on for several years.

You can say that the president, because of the charges that have been made, wanted an independent investigation made, and he ordered directing you to make an independent investigation of the situation.

Because the president wants, if there's anybody who is guilty in this thing, he said he must, through the judicial process, be brought to the bar.

Well, or simply to aid you in analyzing the steps that ought to be taken here.

You were being asked to do a lot of extraordinary things.

You could say the president wants this matter cleaned up once and for all.

Right.

Innocent people have been hurt in the process, charges being thrown around.

Now we've got a judicial process and we want this thing finished.

Beyond that, you've had all kinds of senators and congressmen calling for the appointment of special commissions and all that kind of thing.

So you're it.

For you to come to any sort of a judgment on those kinds of proposals, you have to have a pretty clear understanding of the facts.

Right.

Well, with Dean, I think you could talk to him in confidence about a thing like that.

Actually, he isn't going to...

I'm not sure.

I just don't know how much to lean on that read at the moment.

But I'll sound it out.

Well, you start with the proposition, Dean.

The president thinks you've just been a...

You know, you've carried a tremendous load, and he has his affection and loyalty to you is just undiminished.

All right.

And now let's see where the hell we go.

We can't get the president involved in this, his people.

I mean, that's one thing.

We don't want to cover up, but there are ways that he can.

And then he's got to say that, for example, you start with him, certainly, on that.

That's right.

Well, I'm not sure I can go that far with him.

No.

He killed me.

Well, I'll sound it out.

Right.

Well, get a good night's sleep.

Thank you, sir.

I'll bet you do.

All right.

Well, you know, in a way,

curious thing.

Not curious at all, but John, it's just, well, it's terribly painful, of course.

I was thinking I don't have to go to that damn dinner tonight.

Yeah.

But my point is, well, it is painful.

And I just feel better about getting the goddamn thing done.

Good.

Or do you agree?

Absolutely.

And after all, it's my job and

I don't want the presidency tarnished, but also I'm a law enforcement man.

Yep.

Right?

Yep.

And you've got to move on to more important things.

Yeah, that's right.

Okay, Mike.

All right, sir.

See you tomorrow.