Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 38 › Conversation 038-157

Nixon phone call with Haldeman on Watergate and John Dean

Wednesday, April 25, 1973 · 7:46 PM–7:53 PM ET · White House Telephone · 8 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob")Conversation038-157 on Tape 38StartWednesday, April 25, 1973 at 7:46 PMEndWednesday, April 25, 1973 at 7:53 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 038-157 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and H.R. Haldeman discuss the potential threat posed by John Dean, specifically speculating on whether Dean may have surreptitiously recorded past conversations with the President. The participants assess Dean’s credibility as a witness and strategize how to manage the political and legal fallout of his allegations. Ultimately, they decide to maintain a firm stance, focusing on the difficulty Dean will face in proving his claims while questioning his motivations.

Audio

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NARA Description

On April 25, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman talked on the telephone from 7:46 pm to 7:53 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 038-157 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 38-157

Date: April 25, 1973
Time: 7:46 pm - 7:53 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman.

[See also Conversation No. 430-36]

[A transcript of the following portion of this conversation was initially prepared for the
Watergate Special Prosecution Force (WSPF) and can be found in Record Group (RG) 460,
pages 1-8 and in United States v. Mitchell, Exhibit 33, pages 00633-00640, (1-8). The Nixon
                                              -87-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                              Conversation No. 38-157 (cont’d)

Presidential Materials Staff reviewed the transcript and made changes as necessary. This
transcript has been reviewed under the provisions of the Presidential Recordings and Materials
Preservation Act of 1974 (PRMPA). The National Archives does not guarantee its accuracy.]

[Begin transcribed portion]

[End transcribed portion]

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

Download transcript (.txt) · JSON data

Click a timestamp to play from that point; the page address then links to that moment (e.g. #t=125).

Yeah.
Yes, sir.
Is there any way that even surreptitiously or discreetly or otherwise, I mean, that in a way you could determine whether this matter of whether might have walked in there with a recorder on him?
I don't know.
No.
I don't think there is any way.
I think you've got it so remote as to be almost beyond possibility.
And if he did, there's... Well, we've got it.
I mean, it's...
But the point is, that's a real bomb, isn't it?
Uh, yeah.
Sure is.
That's what may be his bomb.
In other words, he'll put that on the desk with Henry Peterson and says, I got a recording on the President of the United States, and here's what he said.
Well, that would be...
Very hard.
If he did it, we'd say yes.
Virtually impossible.
Not virtually impossible.
If he did it, we'd say, yes, sir, that was a recording, and I was investigating.
That's right.
On the other hand, it'd be goddamn hard.
I mean, you run that in the press, that'd be pretty hard.
But, well, no way to find out, is there?
No.
There isn't any, in no way anybody would know except him.
We have no record of, we don't have any background as to whether he has done that before, have we?
None.
no evidence at any time under any circumstances.
And I've been involved in enough where he's going on that I just find it impossible to think that there could possibly be the case.
One thing about those things is I think that when a fellow walks in—I mean, I didn't look at him that closely, but you were there.
God damn, I mean, I think it's a little, even the smallest ones are bulky enough that you mean, you'd sort of see that.
Where do you carry them?
In your hip pocket or your vest pocket?
Or under your arm, you know, where they carry a pistol holster or something.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well.
I really don't think it's so remote as to be almost beyond a realm of possibility.
Yeah.
It doesn't matter nothing as we'll be on there.
That's true.
But of course, he draws a sword on that.
I think if that's the subject he has in mind, that he's just going to do it on the basis of his own record afterwards or something.
That's right.
Oh, well, on that, we'll destroy him.
His word against the president.
The only other thing is, of course, his conversation with regard to the—I mean, the little slip in your office about the—that was so casual.
I don't think you're going to have a problem with that.
That's an effort to base it on his conversation, you know, his memorandum afterwards or if he's done something like that.
But he didn't usually do that.
He didn't write conversations when he ran?
Not usually.
He probably did on this one.
As I said, it sounds as if he had notes, which you said you thought he did.
You know, might have used that to— Yeah, that.
But I mean, he didn't make any notes, and any conversation I ever had with him, he always sat there.
And then probably as a—I mean, with a good memory, you can go back and write everything down, you remember.
But he's always had a bit of memorandum of the conversation afterwards, and I said this and that.
On the other hand, Ziegler had a good point about, you know, which he made a few days ago, and he said, John Fee's credibility is nil.
Because the Dean report has proved to be false and everything else.
And that's what we've got to have in mind here now.
We don't want you and John to get too goddamn discouraged about this, because basically John Dean, his report that he now claims he didn't make, his subordination of perjury, his everything else, who the hell is to believe what he's going to say now?
And he's saying it now for what purpose?
He's going to be, of course...
Well, they're making me the scapegoat and all the rest, and therefore I'm going to tell all.
And he's going to, as he says, I'll try this, his attorney says, this administration right up to the president.
He doesn't say the president, but, you know, that's what they said.
Yeah, but that's all for a purpose.
When you get down to trying to do it, they've got a very tough time.
The purpose, of course, is to get everybody, which now the prosecutor, Bob, is not about to give them.
Really?
sir, they're not dull.
Peterson says it.
I said, no, you make your judgment on your own.
I said, not on my behalf.
He said, no, he says he's just much involved as a principal.
He just can't do it.
And frankly, I think it suits us well.
I think if you're in a position now that if you gave him immunity, he would sit there the rest of our lives hanging it over you.
And the point is that
if he's going to have this missing contest get out and fight it out it'll be a bloody god damn thing you know it's a strange kind of a way that's life isn't it it'll be understood and it'll be rough as a cob and we'll survive and some people you'll even find in Mississippi you'll find a half dozen people it'll be for the president no no
You still have some support in the country, I hope, but we shall see.
Yep.
I agree.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
Despite all the polls and all the rest, I think there's still a hell of a lot of people out there, from what I've seen, or, you know, they want to believe.
That's the point, isn't it?
Well, sure.
Anyway, I thought it was just a thought that maybe he checked that thing, but there's no way he could check it.
No, there isn't anything to check.
We've never heard that he's ever done that before.
Never.
Never.
Although, as I say, if worse comes to worse and he has one, well, we've got one.
No, but what I mean is we've got to live with it.
That's it.
Well, I know what's there at least.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
Tomorrow, there's the
a little left on what you had this day, right?
Yeah.
But you were there during that discussion.
I suppose that we probably discussed how the hell we get the 120, right?
I don't remember it.
No, I don't think so.
I think it was, you know, just sort of a rehash of the other thing.
It's basically going into the impossibility of doing it.
And the next day, I suppose the question is, well, did you get the 120?
I may have asked him that, I don't know.
I don't think I did, but I'm not even sure there was a second.
Well, anyway, listen to it tomorrow and let me know, will you?
Yep.

Also recorded on April 25, 1973

  • 038-154 7:25 PM · 10 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at 7:25 pm.
  • 038-155 7:25 PM · 14 min — President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman talked on the telephone from 7:25 pm to 7:39 pm.
  • 430-034 7:25 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at 7:25 pm.
  • 038-156 7:39 PM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 7:39 pm and 7:46 pm.
  • 430-036 7:46 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 7:46 pm to 7:53 pm.
  • 038-158 7:53 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 7:53 pm and 8:20 pm.
  • 430-037 7:53 PM · 36 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 7:53 pm and 8:20 pm.
  • 430-038 7:53 PM · 15 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 7:53 pm and 8:20 pm.

All 79 conversations from April 25, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 038-157, April 25, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/038-157 (accessed October 29, 2026).