Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 39 › Conversation 039-051

Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Watergate scandal and John W. Dean III

Sunday, June 3, 1973 · 9:37 PM–9:45 PM ET · White House Telephone · 8 min

ParticipantsWhite House operator; Nixon, Richard M. (President); Ziegler, Ronald L.Conversation039-051 on Tape 39StartSunday, June 3, 1973 at 9:37 PMEndSunday, June 3, 1973 at 9:45 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 039-051 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Press Secretary Ronald Ziegler discuss strategies to counter John W. Dean III’s allegations regarding a Watergate cover-up and his efforts to seek immunity. The President expresses skepticism about Dean’s work habits and record-keeping, while emphasizing that past discussions regarding executive privilege were matters of constitutional principle rather than criminal activity. To prepare a defense, Nixon directs Ziegler and Alexander Haig to examine Dean’s files to better understand the nature of the materials he may have removed or copied.

Audio

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NARA Description

On June 3, 1973, White House operator, President Richard M. Nixon, and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone from 9:37 pm to 9:45 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 039-051 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 39-51

Date: June 3, 1973
Time: 9:37 pm - 9:45 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The White House operator talked with the President.

       Incoming telephone call

The President talked with Ronald L. Ziegler.

       Watergate
             -John W. Dean, III
                    -Notes of meetings with President
                           -Chronology
                                   -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
                           -President’s conversation with Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
                    -Motives
                           -J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr.
                           -Immunity
                    -Notes of meetings with President
                           -Copying
                                   -Timing
                    -Tapes of phone calls
                    -Chronological files
                           -Memoranda of conversation [memcons]
                           -Work habits
                    -Contacts with President
                           -Haldeman’s analysis
                                   -Dates of conversations
                           -Meeting, March 23
                                   -Key Biscayne
                                   -James W. McCord, Jr.
                                   -Camp David
                           -President’s orders regarding cover-up
                                   -Executive privilege
                                   -L[ouis] Patrick Gray III
                                               -43-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                                            Conversation No. 39-51 (cont’d)

                                    -Executive privilege
                                           -Compared with cover-up
              -Richard A. Moore
                     -Forthcoming conversation with Ziegler
              -Buzhardt’s schedule
                     -Charles A. Wright
                     -Ziegler
              -Dean
                     -Files
                            -Possible examination
                                   -Buzhardt, Leonard, Garment
                                   -Haig
                                   -Buzhardt’s view
                                          -Presidential papers
                            -Copying

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Hello?
Jessica?
Yes, sir.
Hi, Ron.
And getting that stuff ready for tomorrow, I wonder if you would give a call if you don't already have it and get the days that where he saw me.
Oh, we have all that.
Yes, sir.
Because that will mean you won't have to look at an awful lot of stuff.
Yes, sir.
We have it all.
Right.
We have the dates and the times and the lengths and the whole thing.
Right.
And we're going to get on that first thing in the morning?
Well, I talked to Al after I talked to you, and he agreed with the idea.
The problem, of course, is how to do it.
And what a bizarre or the consensus of the group for you as to what Dean and his people are up to at this moment, you know, with sort of his
almost a wild exaggeration and so forth and so on.
Well, basically as I understood it, my discussions was the desire for immunity and the desire to muddy the waters really as much as possible from their own self-serving standpoint.
And therefore to make the immunity more desirable and so forth.
To make it appear really that he is more than he in fact has.
kind of like his key and lockbox thing.
That's right.
But they don't know—we don't know whether—with regard to Xeroxes of materials, which doesn't bother me particularly, if he's got them, that's that, because that's probably better than his recollection.
But the point is, we just don't know on that, because he could have done it any time before April 30th, couldn't he?
That's right.
And he might be referring to that, but he throws that out, and the idea of taping telephone calls and that sort of thing, which also doesn't...
I don't think, Mr. President, knowing the way Dean worked and operated, I don't think he has anything in his cron file.
I think everyone's making altogether too big of a deal about so-called cron files, those types of things.
Well, anybody, of course, goes in and makes a memorandum after a conversation, but he's probably got that.
I don't think Dean even did that.
No?
Quite frankly, no.
He didn't work that way.
He didn't?
No.
It'd be interesting to see his files, and that's one reason why that would be a good exercise.
I don't think Dean was that disciplined in his work habits that he would walk out and...
But he might have later conjectured it all up and...
made up a lot of crap, but that would be dangerous as well.
But Dean was not a very disciplined worker as such.
He wasn't, no.
I don't think so.
That's what I observed.
But we'll— Well, in any event, you've got the—you do then have— We have Bob, yes.
—like these—like, for example, you told me today,
They went the 28th of February, the 27th and 28th, and the 1st of March, the 2nd, and then skipped over for about a week until about the, you know, without any— That's right.
Yeah, the pattern fits on press conferences and so forth.
The 1st and then the 14th.
Right.
Then the 21st and the 20th.
The 20th, the 21st and 22nd.
Right.
And then I made two calls, Troy, from Keebus again at 23rd, and that was the time, as you know, of the—
That's right.
So I'm sure that's what the damn conversation was all about.
And he was up there, I think at Camp David, trying to write something out.
Yeah, I think so too.
What do you think he is referring to when he says the President directly directed him to cover up and so forth?
That is unbelievable.
I don't—I think it's an exaggeration of some of the discussions we had on the
executive privilege or on his appearance before Gray, none of it, you know, not a goddamn thing I do with cover-ups.
That's exactly right.
I mean, we weren't...
executive privilege and so forth had nothing to do with that.
That all related to the, and I remember the discussion, and remember the whole argument of things that related to the, whether or not it would be a violation of separation of powers for men in the executive branch to be, or on the White House staff to be questioned.
That's what the discussion was during that whole time.
Well, it didn't have a goddamn thing to do with cover-up, Rob.
Not a thing?
No.
I mean, the whole point was how we were to handle this in a way that was consistent with separation of powers and so forth.
Well, be sure to have your talk with Dick Moore and really ring him out, you know, because he isn't too disciplined either, but he'll recall anything that's interesting.
And, of course, Dick is not only totally loyal, but he's also a fellow that will
I think recall the truth.
That's the point around him.
He's very believable, too.
Right.
I'll talk to him in the morning.
All right, fine.
I'll see you then.
When are you going to work on this?
But I want to get that done in the morning.
First thing in the morning, I see Lazard at 8.30.
He's going to meet with Charles Wright at 7.30, and then I'm going to see him at 8.30.
The thing is that I want this done, however.
I don't want it done by Lazard or Garment or anybody else, you know.
I think it's
Al is the best one to do it.
All right.
I think he's—if he thinks it's proper, he should just walk in, take a look.
Oh, sure, it's proper.
I talked to Bizarre tonight.
What did he say?
He said, thank goodness.
He said, that's fantastic.
What, to go in and look at the files?
Oh, sure.
Well, I read a journal that we couldn't do that.
No, he was under the impression that there was an order that we couldn't look at them.
Well, there is an order that we can't look at, basically.
Yeah.
Ron had other files.
I don't want him to paw through all of them.
That's right.
He understands that.
Yeah, but in the view of the fact that the security has been broken on Dean's files, God damn it, we're going to look at his files.
No, Buzard says it's perfect.
He said those are the President's files.
I see.
I think there was some confusion there, but Buzard, when I told him you said this and that directly ordered it, he said, that's great.
And he said, we'll do it under whatever procedure we're authorized to do it.
It would be tremendously helpful.
Right.
But it'd be best to have all of it, I think.
Yeah, and we have the dates, and they're only... And I don't know that Xeroxing is necessary.
I'm not sure that taking copies out is the right thing to do.
We just want the substance of the damn thing.
Xeroxing makes an awful big deal of it, doesn't it?
Not really.
How do you do with your Xerox?
You can do that pretty easily, can't you?
Oh, sure.
We'll have Al take a look at it and see what's there.
And then we can go from there.
Right.
Okay, Ron.
Thank you.

Also recorded on June 3, 1973

  • 039-045 7:06 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone from 7:06 pm to 7:09 pm.
  • 039-046 7:09 PM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 7:09 pm and 7:30 pm.
  • 039-047 7:30 PM · 5 min — White House operator, President Richard M. Nixon, and Alexander M. Haig, Jr. talked on the telephone from 7:30 pm to 7:34 pm.
  • 039-048 7:42 PM · 20 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at 7:42 pm.
  • 039-049 8:18 PM · 47 sec — White House operator, President Richard M. Nixon, and Charles G. ("Bebe") Rebozo talked on the telephone from 8:18 pm to 8:19 pm.
  • 039-050 8:19 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 8:19 pm and 9:37 pm.
  • 039-052 9:45 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:45 pm and 9:46 pm.
  • 039-053 9:46 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone from 9:46 pm to 9:48 pm.

All 34 conversations from June 3, 1973 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 039-051, June 3, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/039-051 (accessed November 9, 2026).