On June 7, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Harry S. Dent talked on the telephone at Camp David at an unknown time between 9:38 am and 9:41 am. The Camp David Study Table taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 133-007 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Hello?
Yes, sir.
Well, Harry, it looks like, uh, it looks like he did better than anybody thought, huh?
Yes, sir.
He cut this fella.
closer than they expected.
NBC projects that there'll be an eight percentage point difference when all the votes end in California.
That sure shows that these pollsters were probably bought off by the Kennedy crowd, don't you think?
Well, that son of a bitch Mervyn Field, you know, has been always loaded to the left.
He had him showing two to one.
Right, sir.
And ABC had it almost two to one.
Right, sir.
And the other thing, of course, is that a lot of people may have misjudged those debates.
Everybody thought that
They were helping.
They may have thought McGovern was too slick and old Hustle and Hubert looked a little bit, you know.
What do you think?
What the hell happened here?
When you look at it all the way around, it does appear that McGovern got cut down.
He got cut closer, like in New Mexico.
I heard.
33 to 29, huh?
Right.
Then in New Jersey...
It's hard to get a head-to-head vote count in New Jersey because of the way they ran the thing out there.
Can I hold you for a minute?
Yes, sir.
Hold you for a minute.
Yes, sir.
Okay.
The problem is that they've got a voting machine problem in New Jersey, and of course we have a three-hour vote count delay in California because of a judge's order in San Francisco.
And this is why these returns are hard to get from these two key states.
But on the other hand, isn't about 78% in?
79% in California.
Even with the delay?
Right.
What are the votes?
Who's out?
Do you know?
San Francisco has got some out.
Los Angeles and Orange County, those are the three places.
Well, Los Angeles and Orange, that'll help Hubert.
Hubert, yes, sir.
San Francisco will probably help, unless, well, of course, it's heavily Catholic.
It might just not help McGovern all that much.
But I think what you can draw out of this thing is that the debates must have cut McGovern down some, not only in California, but also evidently over in New Mexico, and I think to some degree up in New Jersey also.
Isn't this about what we want, though?
Yes, sir.
Because he's got the delegates.
He's got now about 900, hasn't he?
Yes, sir.
He's got about 900 delegates.
He's going to get 200 out of New York, isn't he?
Over 200 out of New York.
He should go in there with over 1,200 at a minimum and see he's working on uncommitted.
He said he's going to be spending the rest of his time working on these uncommitted delegates on the bandwagon psychology.
So I think, well, I guess we want him to get it, but not to win as big in these primaries as it looked like he was going to win.
I got a report, too, that Ashbrook didn't do as well.
Everybody said he was going to get 20%.
He didn't make that, did he?
10%, that's all, yes.
That's pretty good, isn't it?
Yes, sir.
That was his big effort, wasn't it?
Right, in, as they say, kooky California.
But, you know, there is.
There's a lot of conservatives.
Right, sir.
If you come up with 90-10, that's pretty good, in an uncontested.
Right, sir.
Because we didn't do a damn thing out there.
I would say that yesterday looked good from what we would have probably desired unless we really wanted Hubert to upset him out there, just to mess it up a little more.
This, however, will give the Hubert people encouragement, the Stop Humphrey people encouragement, don't you think?
Yes, sir.
And make for a better fight.
Right, sir.
Right, sir.
And I noticed, by the way, too, that the
that the governors out in Houston were not pleased with the McGovern visit.
Well, you wouldn't tell that from the press, but who'd you hear from then?
Well, actually, there was a Post story this morning indicating... Post?
Well, I didn't see today's paper.
Indicating that they were not satisfied.
The ones who...
It's kind of like Goldwater going to the convention in Cleveland, you know?
They weren't satisfied, but they still nominated him, huh?
Right, sir.
And the talk out there was that he kept mentioning, McGovern kept mentioning ASCU, although there's been more and more of this Mills talk on the ticket.
Mills is the one I want.
Yeah.
You know, Mills is the most overrated fellow as a national cadet you could find.
Terrific operator, but Jesus Christ, you ever seen?
Awful.
And he has no impact in the South.
I mean, he has no impact.
Well, they'll figure he's a traitor.
Right.
Exactly.
Anything, Ed, what about Ellender?
Ellender has got a primary.
He didn't have his primary yesterday.
Oh, I see.
No, he didn't have his primary.
Now, we expect, by the way,
That Eleanor will get knocked off by this fellow Bennett Johnson.
And Johnson will be voting substantially with you.
He has made that known privately.
With me?
I thought he was a liberal.
No, sir.
No, sir.
He says that he is.
Then we don't want a candidate against him, do we?
Well, we can't really find a first-rate candidate, Mr. President.
That's our problem in Louisiana.
We had a pretty good...
gubernatorial candidate.
Yeah, Trinian, David Trinian.
What about getting him to run?
Well, he ended up in debt in the governor's race, and he's thinking about running for a vacant congressional seat.
But he doesn't want to make this Senate race, having just made the governor's race.
He doesn't want to lose again.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's a hell of a guy.
He is a good man.
Harry, are you watching?
I told Colson, I mean, to pass it to all the political fellows, to you and Mitchell Norris, but you're watching these states because, let me tell you,
Conley, before he left, told me strongly, he says, now, for God's sakes, be sure to field candidates in these states like North Carolina where these guys are getting knocked off.
Are we doing it?
Yes.
See, this may be the year when the incumbents go out, just like the incumbent governors went out in 70.
Right.
Are we doing that?
Yes, and we are encouraging these Republicans not to... We don't want to repeal candidates against people like Joe Wagner.
Oh, God, let me tell you, I'll never talk to anybody who runs against Joe Wagner.
But we are encouraging them to file them in many of these other places just in the event there's a real presidential sweep down in... McGovern and Mills, or some talk about McGovern and Teddy.
Do you think that will happen?
I don't see why he would do it.
I don't see why he would do it.
Clean himself up?
Sure.
I'll make a jubilant effort.
But just from what I see and hear, I believe McGovern's continuing to think more and more in terms of Askew as a guy that his people could buy, you see, as a southerner who was courageous on busing.
Let me tell you, Askew wouldn't help him one whit in Florida.
No, sir.
Do you think?
No, sir.
No, sir.
I agree with him.
I'd assume for him to take Askew.
The only thing it would be would be it would look like a little psychological breeze would blow there that by the pressure of taking a southerner on, McGovern had moderated a little bit.
Yeah.
But it wouldn't do him any good in the south because Askew's considered a trade on Bussing.
Yeah, and that's still the issue.
That's right.
Yeah.
One of our only turns, we hit him more, you know.
You're right.
That's right.
Now...
What is the situation in South Dakota?
Have we got a good candidate there?
Well, this guy, Hirsch, and the Attorney General are going to have to run off.
I guess Hirsch will win.
Who's Hirsch?
He is a former state senator, a former Senate majority leader.
Is he a good man?
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
But Abuzurek, however you pronounce his name, is another McGovern.
the congressman and the governor at the top of that ticket, it's going to be hard to save one seat.
Well, I don't know.
You never know about South Dakota, though.
It isn't like Maine.
Yes.
You know, if we really work that state, that is not a democratic state.
Right.
But unfortunately, the Democrats do have the best politician in this congressman who's running.
He is another McGovern so far as tending to the home base.
I'll be damned.
And so we're going to have a tough job with that one.
Now, we've got a
A real good chance in North Carolina with this fellow Jesse Helms.
I've heard that.
Radio commentator, television.
Television.
And I really think we can pull that off.
And, of course, these southerners are concerned, southern governors are concerned, that the McGovern race versus you with Noel Wallace in there, they're scared that other spots will fall.
Well, we could get some congressmen, Harry.
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
And that's what we're trying to get these southerners ready to do down there, is to have some people flooded in the event it looks that way.
I called Goldwater.
I was telling him on the phone yesterday, and he's in good spirits.
He's going to support us on the Moscow thing.
He says he's got a few technical questions, but he says, I think you had a great trip.
I think that's turning out pretty well, don't you?
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir, you got it.
Kerman and Tao are going to support you, too.
And as you go around, how do you find the reaction there?
Mr. President, the man in the street thinks you have reached the zenith, I mean, really, in the eyes of the people.
What is the reason?
Just because I was in Moscow, or what was going on, or what?
What is it?
One, because you've gone to these two enemy countries, is the way a lot of people view it.
They think that takes goods.
Secondly, is you have pulled off peace agreements
At the same time, you've slapped the communist between the eyes in Vietnam.
They like that, don't they?
Yes, sir.
That is the American way.
And they like the fact that we're still mining them and bombing the bastards until we get back to the boys.
That's right.
That's right.
Now, you've got the best of both possible worlds there.
And people want to feel like there's a chance for peace, the right kind of peace.
They want peace, but they don't want to surrender, so it's sort of a mixed bag.
You've got both feet working both sides of the street very well.
But there is a feeling of euphoria.
You know, I don't think people are talking about changing their horses at this point because you've got this thing moving.
And you just don't... Well, we can have some...
We can have some ups and downs between now and then because, you know, the Russians may screw around with the Chinese, but on the other hand, we got them both boxed in pretty good.
If one screws us, then we can go the other way.
And they know it.
Well, I find in talking to conservative groups just since your trip and since the SALT agreement, that it's easy behind closed doors to get them all applauding for the SALT thing, even with a few birches in the room.
The sentiment is so strong that this is you making the right move.
People trust you.
These people trust you.
Well, they know, too, that I drove awful hard bargains over there.
You know, we didn't settle that lease because the interest rate was wrong.
Well, that's a pretty good thing to say.
Right.
You know, and that we insisted on the sub things on their retiring 200-0 missiles.
Well, that's pretty good stuff.
And when you get Goldwater to go along with this thing, and we don't have any major infections other than Ashbrook—
That takes care of it with the right, most of the right.
Oh, yeah.
We'll have some, I mean, human events and some of those, but once they see the whites of McGovern's eyes, good God, they just got to get with us, don't you think?
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
I have a question.
This thing looks like McGovern did get hurt some in those debates.
Did get hurt, but do you think that what will happen now that the Democratic convention will have a better fight, but that McGovern's still winning, huh?
Yes, sir.
I think if they stop him now, I think he'll become a part of the scenes.
I don't think these people would take being stopped.
And I got the impression out at the Houston governor's meeting that I talked to Governor Jimmy Cox.
Did you go out there?
Yes, sir.
Oh, good.
I talked to some of those governors out there who were leading the anti-McGovern movement, and they're talking it, but they're not really getting it off the ground.
They can't get a hand on it because they've got no one to stop him with.
Well, they might turn to Hubert now.
You've got to hand it over to Hubert.
He still tries, doesn't he?
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
But Hubert says he's going to make it to unanimous convention when they get through, regardless how it comes out.
Oh, he'll support the ticket.
Oh, hell yeah.
Right.
Of course, that's the way to run anyway.
Right.
But you know Hubert well.
He's that kind of a fellow.
Right.
He always has been.
But I'll tell you, Mr. President, there is a concern among the knowledgeable people about this McGovern thing.
You're going to see more enthusiasm behind your campaigns
simply on the basis that people are scared of McGovern.
But you don't think his efforts to clean... You see, he's cleaning himself up.
You remember Barry tried to clean himself up a little after his convention, but the media killed him.
Now, McGovern will have the help of the media.
What's your view of that?
Well, he'll have the help, but I think at that time...
They're trying to say that he's just a Midwestern populist in the great tradition of William Jennings Bryan and...
and George Norris and so forth.
What's your answer to that?
Well, I think the McGovern-Humphrey first debate, where he would cut him up, is all you need for that, to disprove that.
I mean, that's a matter of record now.
You can get that tape and you can show portions of it and drive the point across that this is what Hubert Humphrey thought of him, you see, and what Hubert Humphrey had to say about him.
because you probably didn't see that.
No, I did not see any of it.
But he really cut him on that, and he had him on the defensive.
It was so much so that somebody, Larry O'Brien or somebody, got to Hubert and cut him off on the second debate.
But he really lashed him, and he made him look ridiculous, and he made him look very extreme.
So I think that those debates alone are an insurance that he can't clean himself up too much.
If he cleans himself up too much, too, his purist followers are going to give him a problem.
One thing about busing, let me say that, as you probably know, and I deny this or said, but assuming that Congress doesn't do anything about it, about the 15th of September, we'll move on the constitutional amendment thing.
And boy, that'll draw that issue on it.
Yes, sir.
Well, you can see what that is with Wallace out there doing it well in New Mexico, not even turning his hands.
Yeah.
Poor fellow, he's not doing very well in the hospital, is he?
No, sir.
Some reporters from Alabama who've been covering him all the way through told us yesterday that he's in much worse shape than they're putting out.
He just got an intensive care room, you know, yesterday.
Well, they got out of it?
They did take him out of that yesterday.
But they say that he's got much further to go.
Jimmy Carter, John West, these governors who've seen him, Governor Ferreira of Puerto Rico just saw him the other day.
And they all say he's not in good shape at all.
They're worried about infection sitting in and collagen spondylitis and other complications.
Well, one thing, he just can't campaign, Harry.
I don't care how you, don't you agree?
Right, sir.
Or could he?
I suppose in three months he'll get in a wheelchair.
I don't think he can.
And another thing is if it's McGovern versus you.
If he does come on in a third-party role, for instance in the South, we can do more to scare people than last time, because they're more afraid of McGovern than they were Humphrey last time.
Oh, I know, I know.
Because Hubie, they thought, well, he's a happy fellow, but he doesn't mean it.
Yeah.
But I don't underestimate Wallace taking advantage of an opportunity, but I don't think physically he can take advantage of this opportunity.
And that's why I'm beginning to believe it's going to be McGovern versus you with no Wallace.
I would hope that would be it so we'd have a clear-cut fight.
And if that turns out, why, that would be mighty good.
Although Bob McCoy, who is Monk's right-hand man for many years, you know, wrote me a note the other day, and he said, do not underestimate McGovern.
He said we underestimate him in South Dakota consistently.
Yeah.
Well, everybody says he's clever.
Yes, sir.
and he'll play anything but uh we won't under with no no danger of our underestimating him right the main thing is though is to do what they didn't do in south dakota you've got to take him on for his goddamn radical views right and hard i mean i don't i shouldn't but democrats should as i view this thing mr president now here's a little mood sweep in the country about throwing people out you know throw the rest yeah that's right you have instead of letting the incumbency take you down you have capitalized the point with what your move your moves on peace and vietnam and so forth and uh
They've got a reason to keep you in instead of throwing you out.
And that's where I think that McGovern's drive that he's depending on to throw the wrestlers out as he picks up more and more momentum, I think that's where he's going to be foiled.
You're making something out of the incumbency.
You're making yourself indispensable.
And these other guys who are getting knocked off are not in that position.
Most of them are too old.
That's the problem with some of them.
Yeah, age certainly had a factor with Jordan.
Right.
And I don't think Jordan helped himself by deserting us on Vietnam either.
That's right.
That's right.
I think things look better.
I feel it.
Who's our candidate and Senate candidate in North Carolina?
That guy, Jesse Helms.
Governor, I meant Governor.
Well, Governor, you've got Holthauser now.
Holthauser.
Did he beat that fellow Gardner?
Daily Edge Gardner out in a very, very bitter thing.
Oh, it's always, it would be better with Gardner.
Holthauser took full advantage of pictures he had with you and letters from you, and he really wrapped himself around you.
That's why he won.
He won that thing.
Yeah, because he's not a very exciting fellow.
Gardner's a much better candidate, but Gardner...
Gardner, I think, made a very grave error in 1968 by departing from me, don't you think so?
He paid for it this year.
That's what Holtzhouse beat him with.
Gardner should have whipped Holtzhouse.
Oh, sure.
Whipped him by using his relationship with you.
Now, that governor's race is more difficult to win because it turned out that way and it was such a bitter struggle.
But still, with your sweeping through North Carolina, the potential is there.
pull that candidate governor candidate in because in our county you've never gotten below 46 47 for governor in any recent election on the republican side so i know we would have made it if gardner had uh yeah but i i think it can be done with a sweep down through there and uh now we've got a problem down in mississippi by the way with uh
They had to run a man to beat James Meredith in the Republican primary so he wouldn't be the Republican Party's nominee for the U.S. Senate against Eastland.
And his name is Gil Carmichael.
He's a good-looking, very fine man, a Volkswagen dealer down there.
And it's going to be a little difficult turning him off now on Eastland.
That can be done.
This fellow Clark Reed down there, Mr. President, has really been a loyal supporter of yours.
Oh, I know he has, yeah.
And they tried to overthrow him as state chairman because he's been so loyal to Washington.
But he prevailed, and so we'll have a little trouble turning that guy off.
And by the way, McClellan's got a real problem coming up.
Yeah, I heard of that, yeah.
And I don't know really what we can do.
Did he tell me that he might lose?
Yes, sir.
That'd be a tragedy.
Now...
Uh, the state chairman, the Republican chairman, is trying to help him sub Rosa down now, but they... Well, have we got anybody there as a candidate in case he does lose?
Yes, we've got a candidate, and, uh, he's okay.
He's not, uh, not the real first rate, but Pryor's gonna be bad news for us if he gets it.
He's liberal.
Yeah.
And, uh... Another Fulbright.
Be another Fulbright, exactly.
But, uh...
But if we, just looking at the worst of a situation, if McClellan should lose and Pryor should win, and we go in there, I mean, we do well there, our guy might have a chance against Pryor.
What do you think?
That's right.
I think all the Southern candidates, and I trust this is being done, you've got to have every, and Northern too, every congressman and senator has got to be made to say, I am for McGovern.
Remember how they hung gold water around the necks of our guys in 1964, you know, and accepting the South killed them.
Right.
Don't you agree?
Yes, sir.
Now, that strategy's just got to be carried out here.
Right.
Are they doing it?
Well, they're going to do it.
They're going to do it because he hasn't nominated yet.
These Southerners are going to run from it.
Gee, they're going to run from it.
But we'll see that they...
But I'd get the Southerners, but I'd also, up in the North,
many of these catholic areas and so forth i just run good good-looking italian and polish guys on our ticket irish and uh let them run against the incumbent democrat and let the incumbent democrats say well he supports mcgovern he doesn't support the president level you know right i think that's the that's the game to play at the moment yes sir yes sir
Everything's all right in South Carolina, is it?
Oh, yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
South Carolina will make it all right.
He's the only old man who's probably going to survive.
But he's doing so well with a young wife.
Yes, sir.
He's having babies.
Yeah, she is really pretty, too.
That's a lovely person.
Right.
But we have a switchover down in South Carolina.
State legislators switched because of this McGovern thing the other day.
A very popular young man.
Good vote getter.
good and that's just an indication that we may have some more of this down through the south jerry ford and uh is working on the hill to sound out some of these southern congressmen about a part wagoner on a swift switch and uh you know uh several of those people really ought to and they really come down to it right well although
for national purposes, we just as soon basically have them switch after the election as before.
Let me tell you something I run into more and more too, Mr. President.
A lot of people always ask me about this vice presidential thing.
There's a lot of good sentiment from both Agnew and Connolly.
I mean, both of them are well-liked.
Yeah.
That's good.
It's an interesting thing is that when somebody asks you, well, what's going to happen?
You say, well, I don't know, and I think Agnew, you know, and I say, what?
It's a good man.
He's done a great job.
He said, that's right.
And there are an awful lot of people that like them both.
Yeah, yeah.
That's a very interesting thing.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's always good to have.
Hard to anybody you can talk to that doesn't say, you know, when I tell them, I say, well, maybe in 76, you know, you'll have a scrap between those two.
And they say, well, we couldn't lose.
We couldn't lose.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's the attitude.
Right, right.
But I've never seen things looking better than they're looking right now.
Well, it's still five months away.
This is exactly five months away, but the main thing is that just we shouldn't get out and rip and roll around yet, but this is a month to have our Democratic friends have their fight.
Right.
Don't you agree?
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
And they ought to have a hell of a fight between now and their convention now, I would think.
I mean, the stop McGovern thing,
It's got to get momentum.
Right.
You'll probably see a push for Teddy now, don't you think?
I think so.
You just don't think so?
Except that I think his one big problem is how does he do anything that lends any credence to the idea that he's undermining gorgeous George McGovern?
Because McGovern's got such a big appeal to the bats.
That's right.
If it were anybody other than McGovern, it would be the time to pull Teddy in, you know.
Yeah.
But I think that's his problem.
I think he's...
The one man that he didn't want to balloon, ballooned.
I don't know how in the world they can get around that.
So I don't worry about him as much as I did, simply because of that one thing.
Plus, this assassination attempt on Wallace, I think, not only shakes him, but I think a lot of people don't want to fool with a guy who might get the same type of treatment, you know, who's susceptible to that kind of thing.
I think that cooled his potential candidacy.
You just see and hear less speculation about him now than previously because of the McGovern boom and the Wallace shooting.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, Harry.
Yes, sir.
Bye-bye.
All right, thank you.