Nixon phone call with Colson on Thomas Eagleton and George McGovern

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NixonYeah. Hello.

OperatorMr. President, I have Mr. Colson returning your call.

NixonYeah.

OperatorMr. Colson is on.

NixonHello?

ColsonYes, sir, Mr. President.

NixonWell, looks like Connally probably right. Uh, Haldeman reported that, uh, both Westwood and Patterson called on McGovern to get off.

ColsonDamnedest thing I've ever seen, isn't it?

NixonAnd, uh, I didn't see it, but for Christ sakes, uh, McGovern's got to have told them that.

ColsonOh sure, they

NixonAnd, uh, and, and he's acting like a pitiful, really a, a cruel man. That's a, that's the thing I'd try to get across, Chuck. I don't know who can do it, but--

ColsonWell, I think, uh, but I think that's, well, I think we can help get it across, Mr. President. But even, but, but Colson, oh, I mean, uh, Clawson and, uh, Scali, they really ought to, ought to hit him for this. This is, uh, this is cruel. You can't tell the man on the phone, "I'm for you 1,000%," George, and then let your national committeemen, and national chairman and national associate chairman kick him in the ass.

ColsonWell, you know the, the funny part is

NixonAnd his staff.

ColsonThat's exactly what I figured was happening this morning. But, uh, and I watched Meet the Press, and I saw this Jean Westwood come on who, who, by the way, has to be a lesbian. That's the damnedest thing I've ever seen. She's got the

NixonOh, yeah, right.

Colsonshort hair and a male voice. God, she's got the deepest voice I've ever heard. And she came on and just said, "Well, we're, we've reached our decision today that he should get off." And I damn near fell off the chair because

NixonMm-mm.

ColsonIt's exactly what I think they're doing. They're, they're But what was pitiful is I saw the last half of, uh, Face the Nation. Eagleton was on,

NixonYeah.

Colsonin a very defensive position, and just fighting like hell, and perspiring, and Bruce Morton said to him, uh, "You, you realize you're perspiring, Senator?"

NixonGod, that's terrible. Well, I perspire, that's, uh, shucks.

ColsonWell, under those lights. But, but, uh, here's a guy who's, uh, There's his sweating.

NixonWell, it depends on the person, though, Chuck, but, I mean, some people just perspire and some don't. I perspire all the time. I don't, I-I'm not nervous at all, but I perspire.

ColsonThat's right. Well, he, he looked nervous. He, he handled himself very well, I must say. He He, uh, did as good a job as one could do under the circumstances, but he was and I could, I My own suspicion is that anybody watching him would get sympathy for him

NixonMm-mm.

Colsonbecause he looked like he was fighting for his life, which he is, and, uh, do-doing as well as he could. But he looked pitiful. And, uh, he, he really looked pitiful to me because he was getting such heat. And, uh, then, the very next program, Meet the Press, and on they come and they just drop the bomb on him.

NixonMm-mm.

ColsonAnd, uh, but it's obvious that, uh, McGovern is too cowardly to tell him to his face. But he's having everybody else do it. And, uh, it's, saying one thing to reporters and another thing to It's, to me, it's, it's cruel. It really is.

NixonWell, it sure is. And, boy, it ought to be that very word, "weak," "cowardly," should be used. And I, I don't know, don't assume it's going to be used and I don't know whether I don't know how Well, Clawson and Scali will know, good God, they

ColsonWell, they can do it. The one thing I don't want to do is get us, uh, caught at it, but

NixonYeah, that's true.

ColsonBut they know how to do it. They can talk to the press and

NixonJust say, just ask, "What do you think?" Was that what they're, what they're doing?

ColsonYeah. I'll get both of them cracked up. The, uh, the other point that they made was, uh, that they would, they could call a national committee together within 10 days, they said.

NixonHuh.

ColsonQuestion, I would raise,

NixonWell, that'd be, even if it takes 10 days, that's 10 days, isn't it? They didn't say they could do it sooner than that?

ColsonWell, they said within 10 days. Yep.

NixonOh, well, they'd said that.

ColsonAnd, uh, but if they won't specify it at all, and Westwood admitted that they were waiting for some legal opinions, which they're expecting tomorrow as to how the votes are cast, and who casts them. In other words, who who from each delegation is eligible to cast the vote. And she said there's an amalgamation of the old

NixonMm-mm.

Colsondelegates who preceded the convention, and the new, and the amalgamation of the old delegates under the new rules. You know, that's going to be one hell of a fight. And who's who is going to cast the vote in in various uh, uh, state delegations.

NixonMm-mm.

ColsonSo, I, I think they have yet another problem, which they haven't diagnosed. And that is, the control of that committee. I mean, I They may have diagnosed it, but I don't think that surfaced, hell, a lot in the press. I think they have two problems. One is that McGovern does not have the, uh, the courage

NixonRight.

Colsonto come right out and say to Eagleton, "Get off." And Eagleton re-re- restated again today, I didn't see it, but my son told me he'd seen the first half of the program. And that Eagleton said he was going to just stay on. He just wasn't going to back down. And, uh,

NixonMm-mm.

Colsonthen, to have these two people come on,

NixonMm-mm.

Colsonboth of them very unattractive on television, I must say, and, uh, and say that, which they would never say without McGovern's approval. Ever. I mean, what the hell, why

NixonOh, no, no, no, no, no.

ColsonNo way.

NixonNo.

ColsonSo, there's there's no, no doubt.

NixonSo you say she doesn't look very good, huh?

ColsonOh, oh, awful. I was astonished. Uh, I've never seen her speaking on television. I've seen pictures of her. She's got a masculine, straight haircut cut short, and and a very deep,

NixonYeah.

Colsonmanly voice. Uh, I don't think appeals to women very much. I know that doesn't appeal, sure doesn't appeal to me.

NixonMm-mm.

ColsonMm-mm. But, uh, and Patterson is a uh, w-well-spoken, reasonably well-spoken. Obviously, not very bright to listen to him. And, uh, they're they're not a very effective pair. We We may complain sometimes that our own people don't speak out, but, Jesus,

NixonYeah.

Colsontake any any 20 of our people over that pair.

NixonGood.

ColsonBut it's obvious what they're doing. And I think I I think I can talk to Scali. Scali, perhaps even more so than, uh, Clawson, in this instance, can, uh, because he can move with the

NixonThat's right.

Colsonwith the liberals.

NixonYeah, I-I think I'd lay off of Clawson on that and that because he'd be caught at it. But just Scali can just say, "Look, John, John, John, Don't, it's all on your own, but, uh, for God's sakes, what are they, what are they up to here?"

ColsonYeah, what a what an awful

NixonIt's cruelty.

ColsonYeah, the cruelty of it. And the weakness.

NixonCruelty and the weakness. Cowardly.

ColsonDoesn't have the courage to, to tell Eagleton himself. He says one thing to Eagleton and has his people say something else.

NixonMm-mm.

ColsonAnd, uh, brutal from a human standpoint. You should just do it and get it over with.

NixonMm-mm.

ColsonWell, I must say that's, uh, quite a day for the poor devil.

NixonWell, I almost called you when I saw Westwood and, and, uh, Patterson. And I figured, well, Well, I had talked, uh, to Bob Haldeman. I had him telephone, you know. He said, he was, he, he thought, "What the, what a hell of a thing for them to do."

ColsonYeah, really, uh,

NixonYeah. Yeah.

Colsonand it this Westwood did it with sort of a surgical coldness, you know. She's a very, uh,

NixonHuh.

ColsonYeah, no warmth. You know, I mean, just, "We have concluded, uh, that, uh, it is preventing us from getting on with the campaign." And,

Nixon[snort]

Colsonand, uh, the fun- which Well, changing that changing the guy is going to prevent them, too. That's, it prevents it for at least how ever long it takes to get that committee together.

NixonYeah. And she And then they And then, she said And they said, "Well, now supposing Eagleton decides to stay on after you've said all these things? Is there any way you could force him off?" And she said, "No."

NixonHuh.

ColsonAnd, uh, the question is, "Well, what will you do then?" And she said, "Well, I'll support him."

NixonAnd he said, "How can you support him after what you've just said?" And she said, "Well, he'll be our nominee."

ColsonAnd,

Nixon[laughter]

Colsonyou know, it's just, just so With, with such, uh, brutality, uh, the way they're doing it. God, they're just making themselves look incredibly bad. And this is the very point that these guys on the, on the Novasky show were going through last night. I mean,

NixonThey really did, you think, though, made McGovern look bad, though?

ColsonUh-huh.

NixonMm.

ColsonI thought that most of the panel said The only one who rose to his defense was Carl Rowan, naturally, and, uh,

NixonOh, yes.

Colsonthat son of a bitch was, was trying to help him. But the others, they, they really, and Lisagor, to a degree, was, uh,

NixonHow'd he try to help him?

ColsonWell, saying that, you know, "You can recover from mental illness, and this is not a"

NixonOh, help- Well, no, I don't mind helping No, but he wasn't I meant helping McGovern.

ColsonNo, he wasn't. He was the one that made the crack about the sloppiest staff work in

NixonWell.

Colsonhistory.

NixonSee, that's the thing. I, I don't care about they can Anybody helping Eagleton is fine. I mean, that's only the decent thing to do, but, for God's sake, McGovern's the guy that's, looks bad here.

ColsonYeah, he does. And I think he Uh, Eagleton will be forgotten, Mr. President, if they drop him, which, uh, well, I'm not I, I wouldn't bet today. Today, I would not lay any money on the line. I I, they're probably, they want to drop him, but I'm wondering if a guy who is in, in as desperate a corner as

NixonMm-mm.

ColsonEagleton is.

NixonMight fight.

ColsonMight just say, "Well, the hell with this. I'm not about to step down."

NixonUh-huh.

ColsonAnd, "I'm as good as George McGovern is."

NixonWell, Eagleton may turn out to be a stronger, tougher guy in the, in such a con- confrontation than McGovern. That may be it.

ColsonA mental condition may, uh, you know, really he could have a Who knows how paranoia feeds on people, but he could have a, uh,

NixonBreakdown.

ColsonWell, he could either have a breakdown, or he could just say a death wish, you know. If he If he did have suicidal tendencies,

NixonMm-mm.

Colsonwhich, we don't know that he did, but that's one of the major reasons for shock treatment. But if he did, he's a guy that may say,

NixonWell.

Colson"To hell with you. I'm going to stay on here. If we all go down, well, if we go down, we're all going down together."

NixonMm-mm.

ColsonHe was, uh, Of course, they had Anderson on, uh, as one of the

NixonOh, yeah, that son of a bitch. I heard what he did, you know.

ColsonThat's right.

NixonI mean, he said, "In the first place, I apologize. In the second place, I'm, I don't take it back."

Colson"I'll never retract it." Yeah.

NixonOh, boy, that's, that stinker.

ColsonWell, he really, yeah. Actually, what I'm really afraid is that is that it probably is true.

ColsonThat it is true?

NixonYeah.

ColsonI would suspect it is, Mr. President.

Colsontraffic violations. Girl, the the fellow uh uh he was Attorney General and Lieutenant Governor. He had It's perfectly obvious he can control a state police record.

NixonSure.

NixonSo I Well, that doesn't matter. I mean, we've all had those. I mean uh some worse than others, but uh my guess is, Chuck, that he does have some he does do th- th- he's got to have done some boozing. He's got to have done.

ColsonNo question about that. No question about that.

NixonNow, the other thing that was sort of a giveaway on that Well, maybe not. Well, he was the Attorney General. So, he says, "I've never blown into a bag. I've never." No, no, he would have known that apparently, even whether he'd done it or not. But, you know, he sure knew what the heck tests were, didn't he?

ColsonYeah, right away. Right.

ColsonImmediately knew what the tests were. I had the same When I read that, I had exactly the same reaction. This fellow is he is saying that he's been caught drunk, but they never forced him to uh

NixonHe's talking too much.

Colsontake one of the tests. Yeah. He is talking too much. Much too much.

NixonAnd so is McGovern. McGovern is uh Yeah. They're they say he's uh not answering, but the point is that he's got one of these stupid-ass staffs. I mean, it's uh I mean, like I mean, I used to be forced a little more than I wanted, but now I'm I'm ruthless with them. I just don't talk unless I want to, but I mean, people say, "Gee, it'd be good to have a press conference. It'd be good to go out and talk and go back and say hello to them." But Ziegler, thank god, is cold as ice on that. Uh-huh. But, really, this fellow I mean, look, table-hopping at the table is the worst possible way to do it. Yeah.

NixonAnd then, of course And then going out and uh seeing the press and talk and letting them catch him and walk with him to the plane, that Secret Service should just kept them away. Say, "I'm sorry, the senator hasn't got anything to say." Yeah.

NixonI mean, don't The worst kind of press things you can have is when they catch you on the run, you know, and you're talking out of the side of your mouth. Uh-huh. And he It's bad. And he looked He looked very bad, there. Thing to do is never let them catch you that way. So just I never do, you know, Ziegler just don't let them come up to me. No, that's good. He looked uh He looked beleaguered and uh sort of his tail between his uh legs. He was uh You You could tell that the man was uh was just uh really down, and uh

NixonIs it possible that that that what you have going here is the fact that these people are so arrogant that they don't think this is going to hurt them? Oh, no. You know that is, Mr. President. I mean, that's Connolly thought. He thought that maybe they are just so damn arrogant that they thought they could get away with anything. After all, they're uh pious, arrogant, self-righteous, and well, God's going to see them through. No, I think they're correctly assessing the political impact of this. I think that what they're saying is that

Colsonthat this is going to leave a residue in which uh confidence of the vice presidency is the issue in the campaign, and that takes away from the one thing which they have to run on, which is the discontent of people or the haves, the have-nots, the special I mean, they can't it it puts them in a very defensive posture, and it raises

Colsonthat that kind of that unspoken question that you never know the answer to until people go into the polls and vote. And can be utterly devastating if there's a question about the mental stability of the man who is five feet away. I don't care what anybody says.

ColsonHarris made this point last night. He said those that Gallup poll is utterly meaningless. He said Oh, he said that? Yeah, he said the questions are stupid. He said, "I'm in the field now with some in-depth questions."

ColsonAnd he said, "You will never get" He said, "It's just like, would you vote for a Catholic or not?" He said, "You'll never get an answer to that question." He said, "But you have to start probing and asking questions about do you know the implications of shock treatment?" And uh he said, "That's one of my questions." He he said, "I ask about shock treatments, and what people know about them, and what they think of them, and what they think the consequence is in a person."

ColsonAnd he said, "You have to come at it in depth." And Lou's, unfortunately, won't have his results until next weekend. He also absolutely will not do it over a telephone. He said Gallup is very foolish to do that over a phone because, he said, "People over a telephone, when you get into a sensitive question, they don't know who's calling them, and it may be" Uh-huh. They're not sure that their anonymity will be preserved. Mmm.

Colsonreluctant to speak candidly over a phone. He said, "We always find a difference when we're asking a personal kind of question like that Mmm. with telephones and field." So, he is in the field. But I am delighted that Gallup came out with this. If he's going to drop him, I'd rather have Gallup uh

ColsonOh, oh, positively. Every every one of the events that has occurred is is just as if we wrote the damn script. It's It's It's all the the balls have just bounced our in the direction we would want on each one of these things. I'm I'm delighted over that, also, because if he'd had an overwhelming protection in the polls,

Colsonand then then the decision would be very clear, and Eagleton would be forgotten in October. But the way this is working out, and Patterson said on Meet the Press he said they'll meet tomorrow night, and they may make a decision, and they may not make a decision, and they may announce it, and they may not announce it. And uh all we need is about four or five more days of indecision and front-page speculation,

Colsonand that ticket is is I mean, McGovern is down to the point where I just don't see how in God's name he can recoup. In 100 days, he can't. He'll never erase from the public's mind the fact that he handled this thing. One dominant impression will come out. I don't know what it is yet, either that he was indecisive or that he was ruthless, or that he didn't know what he was doing,

Colsonuh or that he vacillated, uh or that he tried to get him off and couldn't get him off. That that may be the worst of all consequences, if Eagleton thumbs his nose at him. Uh but there but there will be a dominant impression out of this that will be very hard to erase, and already the credibility, I mean the candor issue is

Colsonis already surfacing. And the fact that he didn't tell McGovern, uh Yep.

ColsonThat that came through, obviously, in that Gallup poll. That came through Yeah. very strongly on that program last night. That That's That's got to leave a residual, Gee. you know, feeling with people that's damaging to McGovern. I don't think it's It's not just that we're so close to it that we sense every every shift of breeze, but it's

NixonThe one thing about it, they're giving a new story every day. Oh. Mankiewicz, God, going on Meet the Press and saying this, and all their Of course, that's the thing. They're they're uh we've got to realize they're dominating the news, though, where where Yeah, but we could dominate the news, too, with with disasters. I mean, that's uh See, that's not the way to dominate the news. I wouldn't think so. No, sir. Yeah. No, no. Being in The general rule that you want to be in the news all the time is fine as long as you're in the news with

Colsonthings that have some political benefit. But if you're in the news with a with a goddamn debacle going on, Yeah. you're not enhancing your public posture. In fact, you've got to he's he's got to work awfully hard after this to to get back in the news with his issues. Yeah. Because Well, sure, sure. We With the help of uh I mean, you you I think one thing we have to realize, if we thought they were desperate before, Chuck, Uh-huh.

Nixonthey're going to be wild now. I mean, they are going to come at us with wild. And uh the and we're going to see their uh their media like the Post and uh CBS, NBC, particularly, and the others just just kick the hell out of us because We're We're going to see some of the most vicious They're going They're going to flail out, strike out, slash out, don't you think? Yeah, absolutely. And they have absolutely nothing to lose, and this guy is a demagogue. Like on the first night on the Reasoner program, when

Colsonwhen McGovern said, "Well, there are other people. I know of a couple in high government

Colsonpositions who have had psychiatric care." Mmm. Now, if any one of us had ever said that, that's what McCarthy said, "I know of 50 communists in the State Department." Yeah. Jesus, the media would just say that's the worst kind of innuendo, smear, name them, you know, if you know who they are, name them. Instead, it just leaves that vague impression. He got away with that.

NixonHe better not He better not charge it in my case, or somebody, but I suppose he was inferring that, do you think? I think that's precisely what he's doing. Well, why doesn't somebody take him on? Well, we did. We had a couple of fellows uh uh demand that he uh disclose it, but it didn't make much uh Well. The media are going to let him get away with with rash,

Colsonintemperate statements like that. That's the that's And he will be vicious. He will get more vicious because he's He's obviously read that Gallup poll this morning just as carefully as we have, and he's he is going to get extremely desperate. And you're right. We thought We thought they were desperate when they came out of that convention. My God.

ColsonThe number of setbacks they've had, they're going to Yep. They're going to really be That Well, we'll be ready for them.

ColsonOh, I think that the the key to it, Mr. President, is to keep our own momentum very strong, and I don't think Right. I think we can do that, and I think that as we show This is once when I think the uh the traditional uh concept of holding back for a while it it just doesn't hold water. I think you have to at this point keep our momentum just as strong as we can possibly keep it. Every Democrat we can get. Absolutely.

NixonPlay the hell out of it. Send speakers on the road. Do more things like telephone calls with Golda Meir, let them I mean not that. Don't do that again, but things like that. And uh just make them uh Keep them on the defensive. We If If As long as they stay on the defensive, they're they're down. They can't They can't get up off the mat.

NixonRight. That really has to be our task right now.

ColsonJust hard pressure.

NixonOkay.

ColsonWell, we'll we'll watch it with interest.

NixonRight, Chuck.

Nixon phone call with Colson on Thomas Eagleton and George McGovern

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Also recorded on July 30, 1972

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Nixon phone call with Colson on Thomas Eagleton and George McGovern

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Also recorded on July 30, 1972

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