On April 20, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Charles W. Colson, White House operator, Caspar W. ("Cap") Weinberger, unknown person(s), and William P. Rogers met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 3:10 pm to 4:10 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 332-021 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
The Democratic caucus I see out there fund the day.
Yeah, we got outmaneuvered is what happened.
A lot of the Stratton Amendment would be attached to it.
The original ploy, which we were successful with yesterday, was to get the Stratton Amendment sent as a substitute for a meal, which would have meant they had to go against it to get to a meal, and then give us.
I picked right on the elbow.
Well, if it isn't, I mean, in a way, it could be added to them, you know, and I'll just go, well, as far as the vote is concerned, but I don't worry about it.
Well, the only part of it that doesn't trouble me at all, because the speaker going over now, I think, is going to give us a very kind of funny house in 30 minutes.
But I'm just convinced they're on the wrong side of it, Mr. President.
I think he's not going to find that out, especially when they get home.
Well, the Speaker's doing this because of the election, and he's being fortunate.
He's a weak man, basically.
That's interesting that he's still got 66%
I mean, it was a very low boat.
I mean, what I mean, there were about 70 absentees around, 130 to 66.
That would be the 70th, the 60th.
Yeah.
At least.
But anyway, what I meant is that they didn't try to interpret whether it was not any different from the boats they had before.
Yeah, in terms of the percentage.
They actually only gained 10 votes on the dub side and lost 10 on the key issue this morning.
Of course, in the subsequent votes, they picked up ground.
The cadence was added on the final vote, which is understandable.
But they really only got their total by 10 votes in a straight-up comparison with what they really won.
So it isn't true.
And in the election year, would you consider it?
The pressure is on them to .
But I think they're going to .
Yesterday, the first time since November of 1969, Vietnam, the male in Vietnam is running in favor of the organization.
And strongly so.
That's because of the .
That's right.
Stir it up, but they're getting a surge in the oil running heavily in favor of what you're doing.
That's the right to stir it up, some of that, and other people.
So it's not bad.
Stir it up, but it won't right unless they feel it.
Go over here in his groups that are likely to stir it.
Well, on this vote, I don't like to do it in terms of giving the enemy anything.
That's what they're really doing, really, is they've come to the enemy.
At this point, I mean, at this point, we're going to stop them.
But, you know, you can't stop them.
And then what is done to stop the invasion?
What are they going to do to stop it with the resolution?
Ron handled that very well.
And I'm talking to him, and I know what I did.
I tried to step it up.
Because this is one where I think it pays us to get through this.
But I do have a presence to help.
Oh, yeah.
That's right.
I'm trying to get Schultz to resign.
It's a little bit of leadership that I'm thinking of doing.
And I want to take your heart, and I know that we're out.
Yeah, you're the same as Nick.
Nick really was proud of his mind story.
I don't think much of it he said.
Well, but my point is that we got another employee there.
kill for a show, but the point is that's where we're going to get involved in a minor way.
There's subsidies of their salary.
If it's for the laser beam or something at MIT, it has to go forward.
If everyone wants to do it, but we subsidize too goddamn many of these folks around the country.
We subsidize them through the ROTC, and the ROTC
Mr. Wagner, please.
Good economic news tomorrow, Mr. President.
We've asked BLS to run again because we think it's a mistake, but they come out with zero.
There's no difference.
Because the food thing was probably won.
The food price was one tenth, or two tenths of a tenth.
I mean, the reason we can't, Marina Whitman, I just don't do, she doesn't think it can be run.
Well, it won't be.
What are they going to do, run it again?
No, they're going to check it again.
Hello?
Yeah, on that thing I'm going to do, you know we're going to do it now, two months from now.
But I hope you realize how strongly I feel about that.
And I hope you agree with it now.
The point that I want to make out here is that I think your figure for MIT has got to be low.
Let me explain.
We're putting over $500 million a year into that then National Science Foundation.
You know, isn't that true?
Yeah, yeah.
But that's all.
All of that money goes to basic research.
In other words, none of that's for laser beams or writing.
Well, what I want to do is to take that and cut that to $100 million.
I know it isn't, but I understand MIT gets a hell of a chunk of that.
Why can't we cut that?
Well, but all we got, he said there was only 31 million that could be cut.
And my point is that if they get 40 million from the National Science Foundation, we'll just cut it out.
You see my point?
Because that's Paul's subsidy of teacher salaries, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
We'll just get that.
We can't cut it totally off.
But, you know, I'm thinking of a 50%, 60% cut, you know.
After all, we've got to have an austerity budget next year.
And this is an opportunity because higher education is way, way oversubsidized.
They've gotten fat.
And, frankly, I just think we ought to bust them hard.
Yeah.
Well, it's not a lot, but it's something, and it's an area.
Well, education generally is an area that you've got to dig into.
And so I just want you to look over, and I don't know what you do.
I want to look.
There's $14 billion in subsidy for education.
How much of that is for higher education?
I don't know.
You can see what I mean.
You can't knock down the University of California
land for whatever the hell they go out and this and that.
But what I mean is that when we're in the piddly-wing stuff, like, oh, you know, some of this transportation and environment stuff, but, you know, I want a ruthless examination of it, and we would just tighten them all up and not renew the contracts.
Fair enough.
Oh, no, cancellations cost us money, and also they'd say, what the hell are we cancelling for?
Now, the point is, though, that the renewal of Congress makes a lot of sense because by that time we'll have our mid-year budget review.
We'll have a lot of stories out that we have to cut the budget.
Yeah, that's right.
And we would just go right after these people and knock their brains out.
Now, I've been trying to do this for years, you know, and I've been fought by the ATW and, frankly, some of our people that are close to universities and our own staff.
But I'm not going to tolerate it anymore.
I figured that I know we've got a couple other things.
We're going to flush the course.
And we don't have to.
The Senate is going to do it for us.
H.R.
1 is dead.
And there is probably a very good sharing, I hope, of the other things.
So in this kind of a field, let's just play our game and play it right.
And you will do the most much you'll have to do.
All right.
Good luck.
Well, anyway, on this vote, I hope that our people, it'll be hard.
They've got bad thoughts.
Networks, the press, the House have the biggest vote against war.
That's the way they'll cover it.
So what the hell?
They still can't carry it, though.
If we get 60 Democrats,
60 Democrats.
We will also find more solidity among Republicans.
You see, the Republicans, you're not going to have 40 or 50 defections this time.
As a matter of fact, you're not going to have 60 Democrats.
You're going to have more than 60 Democrats.
You'll get more than 60 because some things are going to happen.
And Albert said that he only voted for it because it could never be enough.
As did a number of other members who came out of that caucus.
And I just predict that 30 days, 45 days down the road, they were saying no.
Well, I think you ought to start right out of the way.
I think you ought to find the VFW commander.
Write every member of the House of Boarders.
You have to say, I'm going to fight you.
I mean, I personally, I was distressed, shocked at your vote.
Get some people, get some lousy mail in there if you can.
Can we do that?
Let's stir up some tough mail about the Doves.
He won't defend our fighting men and the rest.
And the heat came to these guys.
They're going to be very susceptible to that shot.
So they're going to hear from them.
They're going to hear from the FWPs.
And some of this thing is playing beautifully in the works.
Yeah.
And, you know, that's a signal to the hard-hands and the teams to do the same thing.
Same thing this weekend.
These fellas will win.
And he's done well, and I'm proud of him.
And so that way, would you be sure that notice prepared the result?
I guess that I, or whatever, you know, he, I mean, now what is his first name?
Frank.
Dear Frank, you know, I have dear Frank at this time on our end, and I just want you to know that I am most grateful for the statement that you made.
Thank you.
Now I'm going to call him to his meeting, and I hope he's found some money for it.
Good, that's it.
I think he was considering it.
It's a little tough for me, but it's pretty open.
Well, I know, but let's face it.
Does the Democratic Party want to go down as the defeatist party?
There's some talk that's got to be made about the Democratic Party now.
Always say, thank God for John Stennis and George Mahon, but the Democratic Party now has come down solidly on the side of defeat, on the side of surrender, on the side of the enemy.
I've had...
I've had Noel Cook just living up on the hill with us.
Yeah.
He's done a very professional job.
Yeah, yeah.
He got to produce that camp.
He said certain elements of the Democratic Party show more concern for our enemies than our allies, and more with the condemnation of the President for the enemy.
Because- Right.
Or for the lives of our party.
Whiskey went in and
I think what you've got to do is that our guys have got to have the feeling that they may be on the right side of the issue to do.
You know, because they'll sit here and read the Washington Post and the networks and all the rest, no wonder, and we're going
You gotta look down the road, we've got a few cards to play.
You know, don't you think they're smart enough to know that?
Yes, sir.
They figured that we're not just sitting here in a bond joint.
Yes, sir.
Why the hell would they think we'd hit these people unless we had something on?
Well, I think they'd also be part of the two weeks that we've had very good news coming out.
The news that played well for us, I think,
Yes, that's of course a lot of people.
We've had a lot of hawks.
We've had a lot of hawkish people.
And, you know, our folks are in better shape.
Tell them to fight.
And I'll tell you what to do.
Tell them to break it.
Tell them not to be afraid of the U.S. You say, President, I mean, this is not a damn thing.
But the day that these businesses have confidence and pride in you, you're afraid of the U.S.
I'll tell them anything's going to happen, because we can't, you know, we're still not going to be able to do this or not.
What's the latest now on ITT?
Will they vote today or vote next week?
Well, we didn't want to vote today, because we haven't got to vote today.
Well, no, we have to vote, but by the terms of the burden, it just happens by itself, in other words.
Absent any action, it takes effect.
The third amendment was not in his experience to terminate on the 20th and the reports to be filed on the 27th.
So if there were no action taken, they would be- Well, planning is up today.
How's it going?
He's been doing well, except he's refused to answer a lot of questions that were outside the scope of the agreement, first testament request.
Well, hell, I didn't answer the question.
Then I told him, remember I told you, Chuck, be very free about it and say, well, he's just not very smart, is he?
No, but I mean, when I mean smart, smart is by exactly, he said, no, I'm not smart.
It's so easy, you know, to say.
Well, of course, no one else saw it.
And perhaps I shouldn't answer that question because it's beyond the agreement that I'm happy to, Senator.
But instead of appearing for a company, he appeared a little reserved in what happened.
The Democrats demanded executive session right after lunch, which is where they are now.
He testified this morning for an hour and a half.
And he refused a lot of questions as a result when he came back from lunch.
The Democrats said let's leave the executive session.
We've been led down primarily as fed.
We know we're going to get flammable overhitting and denials who are questionable.
Of course, I and Kennedy overplayed that and put it, you know, they probably built it for the maximum.
In executive session, we were winning in those 9-5, which is pretty good.
But what the hell?
Can't you get a hold of Pete and say, Christ saves Odd Banner?
That'd be more important.
What did he say?
Does he understand it?
Yes, yes.
You see what I mean?
It's a public relations game.
I don't give a shit about executive privilege.
You're public relations.
Well, it's a public relations lawyer.
It's a good lawyer who knows when to act and when not to act.
Well, anyway, does he have anybody sitting with him?
McGregor's right behind him.
Well, God damn it, McGregor should tell him to answer.
We'd probably do.
Yeah.
He'll be more than coming, I guess.
Because we haven't got anything to hide.
The only time he should plead executive privilege is when he has something to hide.
Then he'll have to do it.
Then he's got a perfect case.
But if he doesn't have anything to hide, I'd give it to him.
Yeah, because the more you give them, the more you do hide it.
You can say, well, look, I've got a nice little patch on it.
If you're outside, just go put on this one.
Now, you see, the main thing is, Chuck, that Pete never advised me
That's right.
So for Christ's sakes, he can answer the questions.
You know, he isn't, he doesn't come in like Kissinger.
Kissinger would have to say, I'm sorry, that's executive privilege.
That's right.
But Pete doesn't do that.
Pete is running around with other people.
We've carried the whole executive privilege thing so far.
He's lost it.
We don't have a good argument on what's going to happen.
Well, what's going to happen?
Look it up.
I think my betting is unless our votes weaken, it shouldn't be.
that we have a vote since the day after the last day of the year.
We got through the police and just, we went with it.
For once, I must say, his strategy failed.
Incidentally, how could he answer that question?
How about that?
He didn't purchase that.
Jesus Christ.
Let's see how he could get out of it in case one of those people squeamish.
Or was it basically from Janine?
No, it was Janine, Jeremy, and a number of people gave him money.
They gave him a bag of cash.
Yeah.
Well, so what is his answer in case of rape?
He forgot.
He hasn't looked at his records.
We know his records in the safe.
The account is okay.
He corrected himself.
Of course, he's out of the payroll.
He's a nice person.
He probably was...
That was the one question that we knew we couldn't sustain.
I know.
I know.
Well, anyway, it was the one question that scared me.
Well, in other words, what could they do about it?
He said that.
They have a problem with that, too.
Well, because who's going to, unless somebody gets terribly mad at the idea of even offering to donate, or I've heard all that, they don't want, knowing to donate, Mr. President, I would say the odds are bad that we're coming back very soon.
Because it's a pretty tough approach.
I think it's often that, at this time, it won't help you.
I mean, we've been hurt, wouldn't we?
A little bit, I think.
I don't know what's happened to that company.
It's been really ruined.
Well, not ruined, but it's been years.
We've never been hurt.
I mean, our, the impact on us, I think, has been a survey on the Hill.
He was about to say he is, he comes up to this room.
Occasionally, one or two of them say this.
Apparently, most of them say absolutely no to that.
They get no questions.
Well, I can say that the last election started with presidential races.
So that is the key thing that sort of makes Republicans look bad.
It's a little bit of an issue here.
It could be something else, anyway.
I have not been concerned about it.
I just figured it was part of some of these black people's elections.
I don't, and our people are hitting on it.
I've asked my employer a hundred times if he wanted to name one person in this administration.
I've never been charged with, never approved, personally.
Has that been headed to you?
Oh, yes.
That's come through very well.
In fact, most of the editorials that have turned on our paper have used that argument.
First of all, it's nothing to show in this case that you're going to cast some
Any doubts on the integrity findings for the officials in the Justice Department?
And this administration is completely free from any of the scandal that has been going on with this game person.
Most of them have said it's an unfair rap with a few exceptions.
That's the way to be expected.
We're getting, I like to say, we're getting excellent editorial support.
And I'm surprised that we didn't see a star these times.
You know, it's an attempt to do an element piece.
But around the country, it's been as much as they said most people would love to see us repeat.
And it's funny, this one.
What I meant is, let's face it, if South Vietnam is cold, and they will, there are going to be some rough fights going on all over the world.
They're all on the enemy, and the enemy's going to make big losses and will make some gains, but they will not win.
And if they don't win, they've lost the war.
See, that's the thing.
They put all the chips in.
That's why we put the chips in.
So that's the thing.
Now, when they've lost the war, then they've got to negotiate.
Now, whether they negotiate for the election or not, they may.
In any event, we're going to have the damn thing so cool this summer.
You know what I mean?
I don't think that is what they negotiate for.
I think if they fail to win, they don't have to be defeated.
Just fail to win.
And South Vietnam told, well, when we continue our withdrawal in our cases, then we, but then you see we have the POW.
So that's at a well and proper time where they just offered the POWs for withdrawal.
And what the hell else can you say?
And you can certainly argue that the organization has been successful.
The Vietnamese are fighting.
Quite well, very well in most places.
Quite well in other places.
There are no rocks or anything like that.
They don't really get along.
And they're just not going to understand.
And our Air Force is just pounding the shit out of them.
We've tripled it up for the power report in that place.
That's what's pinched it.
That's what's surprising about it.
That's the North Vietnamese calculation.
It's probably the Soviet calculation.
They probably will really want this right now.
before the referendum.
They wanted it some time or another.
But the main point, the main miscalculation they brought out of it was Johnson took it out and said, well, let this all be in the Senate, which is what we have been counting on to do.
But you see that awesome power we've drawn up that made the aircraft carriers, that everything has been all without any suggestions, whatever.
I said, how was it?
Of course you're going to go.
And that is what he said in their backs.
And he said, is he free from the staff?
No, sir.
I told him, I want you to put down the staff.
No, I'll tell you what, Judy just gave me a message.
I'm just talking to Mr. Colson.
Mr. Colson will be talking to me later, but I would like for him to work it out so that we can get a staff briefing on his trip and on this little seminar tomorrow.
Okay.
Okay.
And there'll be a couple other reasons.
I'm going to suggest that Mr. Colson have a go for it.
And that's it.
See, you might call Bill.
Go right ahead.
Roger, please.
Uh... You know, that little lieutenant colonel, that little fucking big man, the little bull rat, the little lieutenant colonel, and some press bastards, I feel they've become a combination.
That's all right.
And the press raises the question about it.
I didn't mean that they're bad news, but I'm commending them.
What do you think?
Unbelievable.
I would go there and tell an 18-year-old boy you're being...
I would say, no, Bill.
I had a thoughtful idea that I'm going to, I had Hague, I got his briefing last night, I'm just going to give you a little of it, but if he has a 30-minute period, you know, he doesn't have very low key weight on all fronts, and he talks about the other news morale and our own fellows and what they're doing and how they're going to do so forth.
I just set it up, I thought I set it up, and they had him do a briefing of the White House.
If you think well of the idea, you might want to have him over to brief your top people so that they will know, you know, that everybody's got to have a little confidence in his policy, and particularly on the immunization thing.
And Al, of course, is going to do it.
He knows he's going to have to do battles and so forth.
He has fought over most of this territory himself, and he's enormously impressed with it.
Well, when I say enormously, very impressed, assuming that we can continue to give him our support.
So I just want to tell you that I pass it to Hague to be available in case you want it.
Don't lose it unless you want it.
Yeah.
Yes, he did.
Oh, no, no, no.
Come on, come on.
He's in the barbershop now.
Yeah, but he'd do it in the morning, and it wasn't any time he was safe at all.
Fine.
I know you had a State Department moment.
Right.
That was the one.
Right, I had him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, the thing is, it then has the cooperation and all that.
And I would just say that if you and I had heard his report, we felt that they ought to hear what's really going on out there.
You see, he talked to the commander-in-chief, and he'll say that men, the commander-in-chief, when they purchase a disaster,
But he says others were very good.
He says our own people were particularly picked up by my mom.
But anyway, I just thought, he'll be available if you want.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
She called you after your testimony.
Yeah.
Oh.
Isn't that great?
Yeah.
Of course, she was
The vote in the House should not be surprising, considering the election here.
It's about, we still have a vote to do well.
Because the Republicans also are becoming more partisan now.
And so if it comes up in the House, it'll get closer all the time.
You say on the one hand we condemn the bombing, on the other hand we condemn aggression.
How the hell are you going to stop the bombing with a resolution?
Well, that's the point that I saw a comment this morning.
Apparently, you already picked it up.
You picked it up earlier.
I was going to ask you a question.
Christy would you like to ask?
Yeah, well, they're on a bad wicket.
If things should happen to work out, which they might, they're on a hell of a bad wicket.
They'll have been on the side of the enemy.
Now, we don't know whether it's going to work out or not, but they also have got to realize if they don't work out.
A terrible responsibility falls on them for giving comfort to the enemy.
Do you understand?
And we're going to have to say it.
I hope we don't have to, because I prefer to have it work out than if it may.
Okay.
All right.
Now, I will have Colson get a hold of Haig.
I can't get any of these at the barbecue room.
I'll have Colson get a hold of Haig.
Haig will call you and set the time that he'll see you in the White House.
He'll get the White House back early in the morning and be ready for you.
Bye.
Oh, God, there might be a thousand of them.
Well, I'll tell you, could I, if I could suggest, just looking at the Chicago group, Chicago sometimes, those are incredibly important.
Uh, the, uh, anything in Ohio, the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the, the, the, the President Wilson, I don't know if he'd be there in Cincinnati.
Anything in Pennsylvania, and that's the Newhouse crowd, uh, that would be good.
Uh, the, the, always the Los Angeles group, of course, and then California, and the Texas group, and, uh, that's about it.
I don't know, I don't know whether he's here or not, because he is, he's not an editor, publisher.
Yeah, but if you could stay with the, well, understand there are other, there are some that, if Mark Hayden's there today, especially him, because he was terribly hurt that we didn't come to the Creek Iron, but he's been a great friend, and, you know, he's supported us all the way before, and I'll see you a little time, and it might be useful.
Oh, hold on, the wives are coming tonight.
Oh, yes, oh, yes, this is why, wives are probably today.
Oh, yes, my goodness, yes.
Oh, if she could come, you see, what we want is to have the cabinet sort of sprinkle around.
And it's another, we're going to use, we're going to let them do the upstairs, too.
We're going to kind of move out of the upstairs so they can see both.
Great.
All right.
Well, if she could come, you could.
All right.
Okay.
He's still up.
Oh, yes.
I talked to him yesterday.
He just was
Well, Larry's done well.
He did, you know, we played this one a little differently than our Democratic friends expected.
We came out with some big guns.
And they're frankly saving me for next week, which is about rioting.
The pure pro-liberalists, the aspirants.
See, if I had been out jarring about how it's going and so forth, next week I'll have to say how it's going.
I'll have to give an address.
And although I won't even do it then, it's bad news.
I mean, no, I'm going to ride it through, ride it through tough, cold, you know, I think it's commonly thought, he said, he had said a very interesting thing this morning, he said, he thinks we're going to, you know, don't underestimate the kind of people, some way they sense a man in the presidency has courage.
He said at this instance, he says, I think they're sensitive.
I don't know.
You hear it from a sophisticate, but I don't know whether that average guy out there feels it.
Because, you see, we don't.
Nobody says it on television.
Nobody says it in the newspapers.
Do they?
They never use the word.
You have to give, well, it's been a little bit of an exciting development for a book like this.
You have to say, Mr. President, that somehow the American people understand that we don't give enough credit.
I think Doug Kelly is absolutely right.
And he and I, it's uncanny that I find, I get a political feeling that he has exactly the same political feeling.
Right now, the American people, I think, understand it very clearly.
Well, you see, the other line, old Chuck, the other line is that we have to understand that people are sick of the war.
We've got the war back.
And, you see, the argument of the evidence of no background that much would be to the attack.
Well, the president, in a moment of rashness and anger, proceeded to bomb Haiphong and destroy the peace initiative.
Now, if they get that, that's bad news.
Now, actually, however, a sophisticated person would say, my God, here he goes.
He had it all done.
All he had to do was to flush Vietnam.
Nobody would have cared.
He'd gone to Moscow, hat in hand, and said, let's take any of you who can offer it.
But you see, the point is, I think it's, if there's one thing I trust you to get across to different people, it's the liability of the office of politics to be there.
That could be used by people.
I don't know whether they are or not.
Is that getting true?
Yes, sir, I do.
And also, I said it also to the leaders of the United States, what I'm going to do.
We have to do it.
We cannot have the next president, whoever he is, sit there with no viable foreign policy.
We won't have a viable foreign policy if the United States is run out of Vietnam, particularly after we have gone the extra mile and attempted to
offer a peaceful settlement and a withdrawal, and that we're not trying to defeat the enemy, we're not trying to humiliate them, but by and by we're saying they're not going to humiliate the US.
So he had the phone as we had it on, and also that was picked up by him.
It's hard for that kind of thing to get across.
You see, you recall that at the time of the
through the missile crisis, which, incidentally, first, should not have been a crisis.
It should never have come out of it.
Second, it was handled miserably, even though we all said it was good, due to the fact that we didn't get a goddamn thing out of the Russians, which we should have done.
In other words, we were looking down their throat and then letting them get away with our Turkish faces.
And that day, it was not enough, too.
But nevertheless, the press went into orgasms about Kennedy's great courage and shenanigans.
You know what I mean?
When you've got a 10-to-1 advantage over an enemy and missiles, you can take any courage to blockade Cuba.
The Russians had no choice but to back down.
It couldn't have been easier.
Now, at this point, we've got a lot of things.
We've got the Chinese initiative.
750 million are the biggest army in the world standing up there in North Pole, they might say.
We've got the Russians with a summit coming up.
They might decide, well, they're going to get some tough here.
We may blockade Berlin.
These are the things that we had to take into account.
And we took them all into account because we knew there was no choice that would not otherwise lead us to a defeat.
A defeat which would totally destroy the presidency.
That's what drew me involved here.
For whoever it is.
Now, it would not totally destroy it.
We had a very strong man as president.
But I thought it was always a chance that I could die.
There's certainly no one of us that will succeed me that will be as tough as I am.
The other one, and that's not to say that it's just the way I am.
I'm just a very tough man and willing to risk all.
But the other point is, the other point, that if they have a threat, he's got to have all the strength in the world because those sons of bitches are weak.
I mean, Humphrey, Ken, Peter, they came in a minute.
And can you imagine if we had them over the United States?
They just lost the war in Vietnam.
what they do in the field of foreign policy.
Well, suppose that after the U.S. war in Vietnam, you had one of those guys in the wild, and the Russians began to arm the UAR, not with irons, but with Soviet personnel on those sands.
That changed the balance of power.
What would happen?
The United States would be driven out of the U.S. right that day.
And these guys don't allow it because they'd be scared to death, petrified.
I can't imagine any of them would have done this.
You can't imagine any of them would have done this.
No, I don't.
The only man, frankly, let me say, in our administration, well, he might have, I mean, he would have had the right instincts, but he might not have chosen to fight men around him.
That would be the problem.
And he would have had to understand, basically, everything.
But the only one real at all in the box you wrote is Connelly.
And Connelly would have not been one of the questions without a damn good question.
That's right.
Rogers was the one.
And needless to say, nobody else in the cabin was strong enough to do it.
None of the people.
Why should they be given an elsewhere standard?
But nevertheless, the idea of
I could win the presidency and have America lose the war.
I'm not going to do it.
It's too great a cost.
So we're going to win a war, if necessary, and lose the presidency.
Now, by winning a war, I don't mean militarily in the traditional sense.
What I mean, we're going to abuse the energy in South Vietnam.
In South Vietnam, not our people.
These are very enormously potent arguments that are made by people in the U.S. You see, the China trip sprang from the image of a dignified, decent man trying to see
It's still there among lots of people.
This has the same outcome of the November 3rd in the Cambodia operation, you know, where, despite what everybody says, Cambodia didn't hurt us one damn bit, you know?
Didn't hurt us.
Do you remember Al Cap?
Al Cap said that.
He said also Al Cap was the only one that saw the December campaign.
The only thing that hurt us was the aftermath.
Yes, sir.
200,000 building tradesmen in New York marched down those streets.
That's the same group that gave Buckley over 50% of their support.
That's the kind of person that you carry in New York State.
That's why Nelson Raimondo has become a conservative.
Everybody's kind of made him a conservative.
According to Henry Nelson, of course, he was basically liberal because he's grown up in that environment.
And he's advised him to do that.
And Nelson was terribly disillusioned.
I was the only one.
I was the only one.
I had no other governor, but I told him, I said, look, you're doing all right.
And I said, it's a terrible thing.
But anyway, what happened was, here was the press.
You go through this branch, and everybody fought along.
And those sons of bitches lied, distorted.
And Reagan, of course, was at heart of the journey.
Everybody's worried about Friday, the kids, all of the kids, bringing a little under some of the emphasis.
I couldn't be happier.
I'll see those kids.
Well, I see these kids in Columbia.
I know that there's a big drug, and we're going to, what, they're going to burn something today?
Oh, they pissed on the wall, or one guy put glasses, and somebody, there was a protest, and a couple other kids.
You know, another thing, we'll run something in Columbia.
With a guy like Frank.
I'm sure he'll do well.
Yes, yes, yes.
Oh!
But the interesting thing is, I'm neither.
I mean, I have a, I really am not, you know, I am.
Here, I probably was good if I had more shoes than I ever had when I saw this.
Or the blacks.
I know what I mean.
We're in a situation now where we just tell the boys to keep the guns blazing.
We're not going to hit them.
We're not going to hit them.
We're not going to hit them.
We're not going to hit them.
We're not going to hit them.
We're not going to hit them.
We're not going to hit them.
And tell our people not to be concerned.
Also, on the ups and downs of the battles over there, you know, we're going to lose a town.
We're going to gain one sometimes.
But the main point is, I use the term, you know, that Abram just said, softly at the mean line, we bend but they will not break.
It's a good football term anyway.
What this is about is not winning or losing territory.
This is winners losing the war.
The North Vietnamese cannot win this war.
The South Vietnamese hold it for this long.
They've already held it two and a half weeks.
They hold it.
The 1st of May, they're already getting a little soggy in a couple places.
It's going to get soggier, too.
At the end of May, I pretty much had it in all those areas.
I've had no trouble, Mr. President, with the Capitol or the Hill.
I can't be seen.
It was a very good deal.
You've got to ask people who would be a different kind of issue.
I think the public senses that you're handling a coup.
They may feel it.
I hope the way they may feel this time is that I was pursuing a path of peace I've been working for and traveled halfway around the damn world and spent all that miserable time in the UK and withdrew all these forces and these people attacked.
I, in a sense, struck back.
Now that's it.
The United States is for peace, but we're not for surrender.
Well, the other one, as we've mentioned earlier, was self-defense.
We reacted in self-defense.
We saw the defense in Isabel, the defense of those 70,000 Americans, because you want to remember, people say, well, let's just defend them.
Look, if the South Vietnamese Army, they say, why help the South Vietnamese?
All right.
Do you want the Americans out there in those damn places, in those foxholes, or do you want the South Vietnamese there?
Who's taking the casualties?
Ours were 12 again this week.
You know what the South Vietnamese casualties were killed in action?
Six hundred.
They're losing 600 a week.
God damn, that's a hell of a lot of people.
It's not like World War I, where you used to lose $100,000 a day.
That was a different time.
People didn't work.
I find the self-defense to be something that I demonstrate in myself.
It's everybody's right to defend themselves.
I see you got a report.
You said you had one of the members of the CPI?
No, I don't know.
Are they going to really put out such a figure?
All the components show a two-tenths increase.
But the total shows zero.
Well, that will be a blockbuster.
It has to be.
You know, I read this morning, I read this morning, I read the Times, the Post, and I told all of them.
I said, I don't know whether I was reading about the same, Jan, that Post story.
I thought,
And I remember what I had read in my file, what Christ is this.
And I read Dale's story, and I realized the figure was okay.
It wasn't that post-coverage, absolutely disgraceful, horrible, horrible.
And what they did, they ran into the story, really, before Peterson brought it.
Well, I'll go over and see, I'll go over.
Sir, the CPI was supposed to be 1.5.
Whatever it is.
Minimum press.