Conversation 440-065

TapeTape 440StartTuesday, May 29, 1973 at 2:00 PMEndTuesday, May 29, 1973 at 3:11 PMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Ziegler, Ronald L.;  Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob")Recording deviceOld Executive Office Building

President Nixon, H.R. Haldeman, and Ronald Ziegler met to coordinate their strategy regarding ongoing investigations into the Watergate scandal and press relations. The participants discussed the potential risks of grand jury appearances, the challenges posed by the Special Prosecutor, and the necessity of maintaining a firm, combative stance against public accusations. Additionally, they reviewed concerns regarding the security and eventual disposition of the White House taping system and legal defense strategies for key staff members.

Watergate scandalWhite House taping systemSpecial ProsecutorPress relationsLegal defense strategyGrand jury testimony

On May 29, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 2:00 pm to 3:11 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 440-065 of the White House Tapes.

Conversation No. 440-65

Date: May 29, 1973
Time: 2:00 pm - 3:11 pm
Location: Old Executive Office Building

The President met with Ronald L. Ziegler.

       President’s schedule
              -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman

       Press relations
               -Ziegler’s previous press briefing
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                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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                                                                Conversation No. 440-65 (cont’d)

                      -Length
              -Henry A. Kissinger’s press briefing
                      -John A. Scali
              -Special Prosecutor
                      -President’s responsibilities
              -President’s possible testimony before grand jury
                      -Violation of due process
                      -Separation of powers
              -Criticism of Ziegler by press
              - President’s property in San Clemente
                      -Robert H. Abplanalp
                              -Charles G. (“Bebe”) Rebozo
              -Pets
              -Helen Thomas
                      -Lyndon B. Johnson
                      -President’s financial statement
                              -Public record
                              -Toughness
              -Journalists from People’s Republic of China [PRC]
                      -Question-and-answer session
                      -President’s previous conversation with Stephen B. Bull
                              -General remarks by President
                              -Cabinet room
              -Favorable updates to press
                      -Scali
              -Special Prosecutor
                      -Richard G. Valeriani
                      -J. Fred Buzhardt, Jr.’s possible call to Elliot L. Richardson
              -Newspaper deadlines
                      -Response by President

H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman entered at 2:04 pm.

       Press relations

       President’s schedule
              -Meeting with PRC journalists
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                     NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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                                                           Conversation No. 440-65 (cont’d)

                       -Ziegler’s attendance

       Flowers [?]

       Unknown person’s health

       Ziegler’s mood

Ziegler left at 2:05 pm.

       White House tapes system
             -Haldeman’s conversation with Hobert D. (“Hobe”) Lewis [?]
                     -Leave of absence
             -Leaks about existence of system
                     -Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
                     -Bull
                     -Knowledge of President
                     -Henry A. Kissinger
                     -Lewis [?]
                     -Transfer to United States Secret Service [USSS]
                             -Request by President
                             -Richard E. Kaiser
                             -Knowledge of technicians
             -Possible removal of system
                     -National Security Agency [NSA]
             -Move of safe
                     -Destruction
                     -Control by Haldeman
                     -Bull’s knowledge
                             -Access
                     -President’s trust in Haldeman
                             -Robert H. Abplanalp
                                     -Charles G. (“Bebe”) Rebozo
                     -Volume of material
                     -Haldeman’s conversation with Lewis
                             -Earl Mazo
                     -Value
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            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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                                                        Conversation No. 440-65 (cont’d)

Refreshment

Watergate
      -President’s possible appearance before grand jury
             -Possible conflict between Harold H. Titus, Jr. and Archibald Cox
      -Prosecution’s case
      -Haldeman’s statement regarding cover-up
             -President’s role
             -Haldeman’s role
             -President’s and Haldeman’s knowledge
      -Prosecution’s case
             -Haldeman, John D. Ehrlichman and President
      -Central Intelligence Agency [CIA]
             -Haldeman’s role
             -Ehrlichman’s role
                      -Daniel Ellsberg break-in
                      -Robert E. Cushman’s testimony
                             -E. Howard Hunt, Jr.
             -Richard M. Helms’s testimony
                      -Contacts with President
                             -Haldeman’s role
                             -Kissinger’s role
             -John W. Dean, III’s role
             -James W. McCord’s testimony
             -Haldeman’s meeting with Ehrlichman, Helms and Lt. Gen. Vernon A.
             Walters
                      -Mexican money
                      -Further meetings
                      -President’s conversation with L[ouis] Patrick Gray, III, July 6,
      -Prosecution’s case
             -Earl Silbert
             -Theory
             -Senate investigation
             -Cox
             -Possible indictments
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                 NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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                                                          Conversation No. 440-65 (cont’d)

                          -John N. Mitchell
                          -Haldeman’s lawyers’ view
                          -Cox
                          -Effect on nation
                          -Canon of legal ethics
                                  -Prosecutor’s duty
                          -Haldeman
            -Possible trials
                   -Haldeman’s lawyers’ opinion
            -Mitchell
                   -Conversation with Ehrlichman
            -Haldeman’s meetings with the President subsequent to April 30

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BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 6
[Statute]
[Duration: 15 s ]

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 6

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      Haldeman’s move
            -House rental
            -Family move
                   -California

     Press relations
             -Los Angeles
                     -Resistance
                     -Compared with Washington, DC
                            -Proximity to White House

     Watergate
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                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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                                                         Conversation No. 440-65 (cont’d)

             -Expressions of support for Haldeman
                    -Blacks
                    -Businessmen
                    -Women
                    -Bonnie Angelo

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[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

      Watergate
            -Effect on President

[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
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      Watergate
            -White House response
                   -Fight
                   -Alternative

     President’s schedule

     Visit to Iceland

     Kissinger
            -Press briefing, May 29
            -Conversations with Haig
                    -Watergate
                    -White House response
                    -National security
                            -White House operations
                                   -Kissinger’s role
                                   -Kissinger’s staff

      Watergate
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                 NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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                                                         Conversation No. 440-65 (cont’d)

            -President’s meeting with Dean and Haldeman, March 21
            -Haldeman’s deposition in Democratic National Committee [DNC] suit
                   -White House staff involvement
            -Haldeman’s possible testimony
                   -Aid to defendants’ families

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BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 7
[Statute]
[Duration: 1 m 4 s ]

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 7

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      Watergate
            -Haldeman’s possible testimony
                   -Threats
                           -Dorothy Hunt’s contacts with Mitchell
                            Charles W. Colson
                           -Haldeman
                   -President’s role in conversation
            -President’s reaction
            -Content
                   -Clemency
                   -Perjury
                   -Dean’s meeting with G. Gordon Liddy, June 19, 1972
                   -Clemency
                           -Ehrlichman
                   -Dean’s conversation with Ehrlichman, March 20
                   - President’s response
                   -Subsequent meeting between Dean and Mitchell
                   -President’s investigation
                           -Dean’s report
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    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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                                              Conversation No. 440-65 (cont’d)

-Dean at Camp David
       -Conversations with Haldeman
       -McCord’s letter
       -Special prosecutor
       -Conversation with Lawrence Higby
       -Conversation with Haldeman
               -Statements from Jeb Stuart Magruder, Mitchell and Liddy’s
                 lawyer
-President’s conversation with Dean and Haldeman, March 21
       -Funds for defendants
               -President’s response
       -President’s knowledge
               -Thomas Pappas’s activities
-President’s meeting with Pappas
       -Mitchell
       -President’s knowledge
-President’s conversation with Dean and Haldeman, March 21
       -President’s methodology
-Dean
       -Statement regarding Herbert W. Kalmbach’s funds for George C.
        Wallace
               -Howard H. Baker, Jr.
               -Wallace’s opponent, Albert P. Brewer
               -Source of funds
       -Possible immunity
       -Prosecutors’ offer
       -Tactics
       -Knowledge of White House activities
               -Robert L. Vesco
-Mitchell’s role
-Colson’s role
       -Concern about Hunt
-Mitchell’s concern
-Dean
       -Possible immunity
               -President’s conversation with Lowell P. Weicker, Jr.
       -Ervin Committee testimony
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    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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                                            Conversation No. 440-65 (cont’d)

               -Baker, Edward J. Gurney and Daniel K. Inouye
-Ervin Committee hearings
       -Gurney’s role
               -Ehrlichman, Haldeman and President
       -Baker
               -Performance
                       -Motive
                              -Presidential candidacy
               -Technique
                       -Robert C. Odle, Jr.
       -Fred Thompson
       -Samuel Dash
       -Sam J. Ervin, Jr.
       -Dean’s possible testimony
               -Mitchell
-Dean
       -Higby’s view
-Mitchell’s conversation with Haldeman
       -White House staff members’ feelings toward Ehrlichman
               -Mitchell, Dean and Colson
-Mitchell
       -Possible defense
               -Key Biscayne meeting
                       -Bugging the Democratic National Committee [DNC]
               -Access to bugging reports
                       -Magruder’s testimony
       -Cover-up
-Dean
       -Knowledge of Hunt and William O. Bittman
       -Conversation with President and Haldeman, March 21
       -Stance versus President’s and Haldeman’s
               -Press
-Ervin Committee hearings
       -Haldeman’s and Ehrlichman’s possible appearances
               -Effect on possible trials
-Ehrlichman’s and Haldeman’s strategy
       -Possible indictments
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    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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                                               Conversation No. 440-65 (cont’d)

       -Trials
-Ehrlichman
       -Role in Daniel Ellsberg case
               -California
                       -Witness
       -Lawyer, Gil Wald [?]
-Conversation with unnamed judge
-National security
       -Egil (“Bud”) Krogh, Jr.
-White House response
       -Bittman’s threat
       -Dean’s conversation with President and Haldeman, March 21
-Prosecutors’ actions
       -Dean
               -Fears regarding Liddy’s testimony
       -Magruder
       -Haldeman and Ehrlichman
               -Hunt’s testimony
-White House response
-President’s culpability
-White House response
-President’s future
-Dean
       -Conversations with the President
               -Content
               -March 21
                       -President’s reaction
-Possible future revelations
-$350,000
       -President’s knowledge
-President’s conversation with Henry E. Petersen
       -Gray
-Gray
       -Conversations with the President regarding contents of Hunt’s safe
-Anthony T. Ulasewicz
       -Senate testimony
               -Activities for Ehrlichman
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                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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                                                             Conversation No. 440-65 (cont’d)

                                   -Chappaquiddick
                                   -Private investigations
              -Ziegler
              -White House response
                     -Senate Select Committee and Justice Department
              -President’s future
                     -Haldeman’s Christian Science beliefs
              -White House staff members’ activities
                     -President’s future

The President and Haldeman left at 3:11 pm.

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Or the special prosecutor thing.
I repeated what I said.
Sure.
very detailed put out in response
They asked you about the bench around the house?
Those are insignificant things.
I don't remember that.
It went on me.
The right conscious person.
I'm just going to have a copy of the stamp, I'm going to have a photograph taken, and then get the press out of there and read it.
That makes it general?
It makes it general remarks to them, yeah.
That's it?
Yeah.
But basically, they'll say, well, excuse me for all the press, and all that crap.
No, no, no.
I don't know if this is the kind of a day we want in terms of being more up-to-date in terms of Australia and other cities.
Sure.
At least we have tomorrow on Friday.
Who's the prosecutor?
Oh, no.
No.
Just nobody on here.
I mean, if there's a question, I'd be happy to answer.
It's not the question's point, but they asked the question.
The prosecutor did not suggest this to me.
No.
Well, we'll borrow a couple of them out today.
I was wondering if the point that the president asked was to call Richard's opponents.
I said no, he didn't.
or if somebody was telling us what was going to appear in the paper, then we have to provide a response to that.
I want you to find out how, physically, you get to that stuff.
Just take it out.
I don't know who knows.
I told you.
I just said, look, there's somebody .
I said, no.
We've got to go through.
There are only five or six guys in the Secret Service.
But at some point, we may only get it out of there.
And then we can get it completely out of here and into a, say, well, it's in a safe.
It's in a place where we're going to destroy it, necessarily.
Yeah.
And then you want to do it right now.
But anyway, it can happen.
I'll make sure that it is under total control.
Steve is the only one here.
Well, when you talk to .
As I said, I can't even believe it.
As I said, the problem you have is that getting started on anything, there's just so much material, and some of it
He said, when we were talking about it, he said, oh, would you be able to do some research?
Would you actually have time to be able to do some?
carrying Mesa all those years for no return at all and they got nothing and no potential
and his crew, and or something like that.
But at least part of the rest of them, they know damn well that they can't do that.
Well, they even said that in the story, but I probably even said it, but I understand too that they didn't have any evidence.
But it makes you clear out more shit.
What are they going to start to do, call the president every now and then?
There's a great administration box
bottom of the barrel every day, they can figure out how to straighten it.
I think also it doesn't indicate that they have a whole problem with their case.
That's what I think.
I don't think their case is all that good.
I don't see how it can be.
We've been going over that this morning, and the thing is they get ready for this.
It's not going to go on forever.
where they've got a makeable case, except on a very thin circumstantial strength.
Because we've gone over all the witnesses and what they've got.
A very thin circumstantial thing, for example, in your case and Bob and John's case.
And they keep willing.
But tomorrow, when I go to this.
And I'm sure without the president's knowledge.
Because something was done.
So you've got to acknowledge the fact that something was done.
And we've got to make the point that it's not done with the knowledge here.
And they're impugning back so much that it doesn't go back, except by assumption.
There's no line of proof.
There's no line of fact that brings it back either to the mediocrity.
I think you've got a good case there.
I do, too.
John's got a sensational case.
I don't know much because the only contact I had with the CIA through the whole thing was at one meeting for everybody in John's office.
And I can cover that for you in a little bit.
I can cover it.
I just want to hear it.
who were the ones that were doing it.
Well, that's pure, unvalorated bullshit.
In the four years I was here, Helms got to you through me once, which is that they brought him into firing.
He never went through me to see you.
Never.
No.
Helms wanted to see you.
He went through him.
And he thought the CIA was being abused.
He could have gone through Henry to tell you something.
He didn't think the CIA was being abused because it wasn't.
No.
And he knows it.
And it wasn't.
was running on a lot of different strings and that was just one of them.
They obviously were playing the CIA game, somebody was.
But we didn't hear it.
We heard it in the book and it's been coming around through as well.
And the court says in January that they were pushing me, was hearing that they were playing the CIA game even then.
So somebody was.
They checked that out and found they had no problem with the Mexican money problem, with any of those people.
And we never raised the CIA again, as far as I know.
I never did, and Dean didn't even, apparently.
After that little series that ended on July 6th, or whenever it was, when you talked to Pat Gray, because they say after your phone conversation with Pat Gray, the subject which never raised again,
Prosecutors have a tough position, especially the silver team.
They've got to prove something.
A, they've got to prove something.
B, they've laid out a theory of the case that they're stuck with that doesn't work.
And I think it's obvious to them now that theory of the case doesn't work.
And they already look bad.
They're under investigation by the Senate for having covered up the first time.
Now they've got off on a thing that doesn't work the second time.
Now the question is, and then they've got cops stuck in on top of them, which makes it look like they were going
So they've got a problem.
And they can't move ahead, I assume, without Cox's concurrence now.
I would think that Cox
without indicting those of us who are not really indictable.
They're not convictable.
Obviously, we're indictable.
And in this case, as our lawyers keep going, we've got to face the fact that it's exactly the opposite of the position that a prosecutor
That's so.
Cocks can go a different way.
Cocks can rise above that if he wants to.
Cocks can go on the basis of reasons which have been enough.
Guessing and leaping and leaping here and now is the time to get down to some solid legal action.
you may want to make one case at a time, which is what he ought to do.
Make the Watergate case, then make the conspiracy, and then make the many other related things.
Put them together one step at a time and bring it back because it's going to hurt this country.
section on the duty of a public prosecutor, which is that because he carries the weight of the state behind him, he must exercise very, very great caution in how he moves, and that he has an equal responsibility to the defender for the protection of the innocent.
In other words, he isn't just to go all out and hang anybody on the ground.
Well, you're going that right, Mr. Chairman.
But I think we've got to realistically face the problems over here tonight.
And we'll be on the job.
Which is going to be a real mess.
And it's going to start to go all over again.
I think we can beat them.
What do you think ?
I think so.
Remember, he said he had no problem in his mind or in his heart.
He would not move from that position or something.
So they're going to be taking it to the center.
I have a team that I'm probably buying.
They weren't ready to buy yet.
So I can get the family before we've got to go and win.
We've got to wait for those players to be around.
Pressurized soldiers because it's the only story in the conference that they've carried on.
They're just unbelievable.
They arrive late at night.
People would get to come down in your back row and give them a statement.
It's like a city.
It's locked across the park.
I mean, the middle of Washington.
I brought his office over to Gary.
Nine or ten people would stop him.
Every one of them.
The recognition.
Yeah.
And every one of them said, good luck.
And so we did.
It was very personally, warm, personal.
And a couple of black people, great people.
Businessmen, ladies.
Bonnie, Angela, and I.
But you said it.
You said it.
You said it.
You said it.
You said it.
You said it.
You said it.
You said it.
And so, but the fight is that I just decided we had no choice but to fight.
You put it pretty well because the guy that's in trouble is a believer that we don't fight the bad guys.
That's exactly it.
That's exactly it.
That's right.
There's no alternative.
It's doable.
It's doable.
It's doable.
It's doable.
Are you lucky you have good eyes?
Yeah, I was going to tell it to Mike.
How's Henry?
He's surviving his terminal ulcer, right?
Well, you know, I haven't seen the presence of him.
He's been breathing today.
He's all right.
He's all right.
He's all right.
R.L.T.
is also one of his students.
He's there.
He keeps speaking over the head and saying, you've got to find him.
You've got to find him.
There's no question on that because he was an integral part of it.
This wasn't something that was done by a real partner.
He had the idea that, well, he didn't know what he was doing.
He was a bit realer.
I was asking for it.
You remember?
It was all Henry.
Henry was the one who was in there raising hell up.
There was anyone paranoid about his staff and what was happening and all that stuff.
It was Henry.
Not us at that point.
And some of us got paranoid later.
Let me ask you about one thing.
You would ask about that when you say it on the ground.
I was given a request to my recollection report on it, which was .
Did they ask you about it?
Yeah.
Just that .
Well, they asked me to go day by day and ask me to recount everything that happened in .
March 21 is significant because of the
There, legally, I was restricted to testimony regarding events taking place, related to events taking place before June 17th, because their suit is only for damages as a result of the breaking.
Therefore, the cover-up is not relevant.
So on the ground of relevancy, they threw out all questions relating to post-June 17th.
So I could not get into anything that we discussed at that meeting regarding
took place after June 17.
So I only talked about actions.
The discussion of actions took place before.
And what I said was that all he could report to you, even at that time, was that to the best of his knowledge, and all of his investigations still confirm that no one in the White House at that time had been involved at all in the Watergate climbing or breaking.
He did say that.
We tell you this.
That was his solid position.
I think it still is.
Oh, great.
I'm covered.
I'm covered.
So I didn't get into the stuff of the post.
No.
What I would is that if I didn't get into that, it's simply, I'm doing the best of my recollection.
I don't have any records on it.
So my recollection in all of this has to be that he did spell out some areas of concern to you regarding the post-June 17th activities.
And they related to the...
substated by the committee in providing funds to the families and so forth, that there was a question as to how that will count.
I've got to work out a case here, which I want to do for Washington or something.
I'll have to do this at the Senate.
And if they're going to court, I'll try and get their case brought in so that they can get the June 17th Senate to do that too.
Which I kind of like to do.
But this was an ongoing thing.
I can't pinpoint what happened at one meeting versus what happened at another.
But at various of these meetings, as this stuff unfolded, there came out various deemed theories of the case and various deemed things about what happened and what didn't.
How would you handle a conversation that they ask you about?
The point of the present was that in the process of revealing to you the various things that had been covered, there had been, he had several examples, as I recall, of what appeared to be threats, which he revealed to you at that time, which had been over a period of time.
There had been a threat earlier of somebody
a threat from Mrs. , saying that there had to be something before she had died.
And then we go to John Mitchell or something that had gone there.
And then there had been a call to Colson at one point on a sort of what appeared to be a semi-threat, which Colson was advised by Dean not to file a lawful indictment, according to what he had said.
And then there had been this threat.
I've got two meetings, which have been made by, by him, and that he, in the course of one show, has recorded this to you.
And I, I recall that part of it, and then I was only in part of the meeting, so it's not in the camera.
I'm glad that you could get in the fact that, uh, sort of, it doesn't count, but it's been, and we've got, we don't know what he's going to do yet, but we can't tell what the head of the group is going to do.
You see, remembering
conversation, I don't want to remember too long.
So we were at that point so goddamn tired, I said, I don't know what I'm going to do.
But the last 10 minutes that we read, it was all right in the sense that at that point, I knew, I recall, I was afraid.
I didn't see that work.
Even if you pay for it, you can't do it.
So after that, I said, well, could you consider
We didn't know that.
But he didn't tell me.
He didn't tell me that he was .
He didn't tell me that .
He didn't tell me that he had .
He himself .
He claimed .
But at the end of our conversation, part of it, you can't ever let even get away with saying,
All right, go out and raise $142,000 and give it to the Senate.
You never said that.
My reflection was that I said at the end of the conversation, well, you'll lose the vote.
You've got to get, eventually, you've got to get this story out or lose the vote.
That's what you really tell your people.
I think you kind of looked at it.
You didn't really know what to do.
You sort of drank off the story and tried to find out what was being said.
That is what happened.
But as you know, it was an inspection that was done on them, just to try to quit the interchange.
We don't even know what that was.
But the point is, it was mine.
Because my investigation was supposed to have started as soon as you did it.
I basically realized when you were coming down, and they didn't.
They were not going to reveal it, because there was no way to win on that track.
He said, we've got to get this story out.
That was an actual event.
Dean was sent to campus.
It was the next day after that event.
Yeah.
We wanted to go for it.
Talked the whole night.
Talked the whole night.
So we could make COVID.
Now, you talked to him when he was out there.
You did many things.
Two or three times a day.
You reported to me.
What did you say?
He was evolving theories of the case.
You get to the defense.
He also got bought in on new development stuff.
Because that was the time the court read his letter to the judge.
And so he was analyzing all that.
What was the court up to?
And we were getting into the whole question of, should we get a special prosecutor in?
What should we do about this and that?
He was still working on it.
A lot of questions.
But then, as his time up there got to the later point, he became clear that he was evolving his own defense for future argument.
In effect, Foley, for instance, he made the point to me that he had a statement from the Reuter and a statement from Mitchell, and was sure he'd get a statement from Liddy's lawyer that would exculpate him from any involvement in the pre-mining.
He was very concerned about that, which didn't have anything to do with what he was supposed to be doing.
The main question, I guess, was the first one.
He wanted to do an understatement of what he can say.
We've got to come down on a ton of bricks if he ever starts to say that you said go out and raise the money for veterans.
But he did not do that.
And he did not raise it.
As a matter of fact, it moved in another direction, as I recall.
So I don't know what happened.
I've honestly done it.
You didn't do it.
But I don't know what happened.
I think it's probably already done.
But you did raise it in the competition.
Yeah.
I don't understand that exactly, but he asked whether there was always something in the conversation which indicated that he had some knowledge about something.
Well, I don't know.
I didn't know.
Some people made reference to it.
Yeah.
But my recollection was that he said, well, I know something like that.
I wasn't really indicated.
I didn't know a brand new member of the
I don't know what the hell it was about.
I don't know at that point.
At some point, you knew that there was an effort to legal ones and that sort of thing for these people.
You had no reason to listen to what they were saying at all.
But in any case, that was when you were in an investigation stage.
It was passed from the 21st on.
That's the whole point of it.
That was the purpose.
As you pointed out, it was my whole cross-examination, and I took you down the road.
And I'm actually going to talk to you about your event.
Assuming you could get to me about it, which we were doing, we got it.
Over 40 years, you still have a problem with Clemson.
You can't get it right.
That's what it is.
He moved down the road a long ways and you were discovering things you didn't know.
I don't know what to say.
I can't figure out what he's logged in this thing now, the money to Governor Wallace at the moment.
Yeah.
But that, today, Comstock had shoveled $400,000 for Governor Wallace at the time.
That's what I didn't understand.
What difference does it make?
But why didn't you put that in?
He kind of tried it out.
He's told somebody that.
He's told the papers, you know, I don't know why.
He has always, he doesn't know if he would lose anything else.
Or if that would make a big thing out of the money that was given to him.
The Brewer, the guy that ran against Waller.
Kevin Brewer?
Yeah.
We had some violations.
I think it was the same money that was at the 1970 campaign.
I don't see why.
The way to handle this even thing is not to give them immunity, let them take the pill and sit it out.
The worst, the deal he's trying to get, the deal is, the deal they say they've offered, the prosecutors say they've offered.
letter, which is that they'll let him take one count of obstruction of justice and not prosecute any other counts.
That's, in a way, for him, better than immunity, because that's total immunity, other than just immunity against his own testimony.
Because obstruction of justice is a felony.
Why would he take that?
I don't think he would.
Unless he figures that that's better than
The other way is for him to just hang tight, which he may be deciding to do.
And Dean, I'm sure, is gambling on that.
That's how he's playing.
He's got a very public campaign.
He gives interviews of all the crime guys in the design magazine.
I'm sure there's only purpose there.
There's only purpose there.
There's just so much I know about this.
I think the law is going to be significant.
The law is going to be significant.
He was there.
He was trusted.
He did it.
We know it.
He was there.
He was trusted.
He was involved.
He did it.
We know it.
He was involved in the vestibule thing.
In the vestibule thing.
My period of the case now is this.
Mitchell.
My curious case now is that Mitchell was the one who was lobbying me on this.
You think he did it on his own?
No.
And that's the first part of the question.
You think he did it on his own?
No.
Couldn't be.
Couldn't.
That's the first part of the question.
Could it also be both?
Mitchell was from his interest, which was a part of Gary's work, but he was concerned about himself.
It doesn't really have to be.
work up
I'll tell you.
I was a baker.
I was a baker and a gardener.
Both.
For that matter, the whole life.
Okay.
Unless they get to know that.
Those three.
The sentence could be a good one.
In order to save you, he constantly draws the line.
Now, Bernie's not a good target, but Bernie's obviously looking to get you busy together.
He's doing it in what I consider the wrong place.
Bernie had to hang early, and probably to hang me, in order to save you.
He constantly draws the line.
There.
There.
He says, you didn't know about it, but I'll be zeroing in.
He says, you didn't know about it, but I'll be zeroing in.
He's not telling you.
But that isn't going to be sustainable.
That isn't going to be sustainable.
It's not sustainable.
It's not sustainable.
It's not sustainable.
It's not sustainable.
It's not sustainable.
It's not sustainable.
Because our faith is doing a very good job.
It really is.
Now, I don't know what his, I can't point and figure what his motive is.
I can't, I think his motive really is.
Now, I don't know what his, I can't point and figure what his motive is.
I can't, I think his motive is purely personal.
I mean, he's trying to sell it.
I mean, he's trying to do it himself into a presidential candidate.
Into a presidential candidate.
Why do you pay attention to each other?
Because it's pushing the sky off of each other.
Because it's pushing the sky off of each other.
And content is good.
The sky off of each other.
And content is objectively good.
It's where he's getting it.
object, not sure.
But, uh, the basis of where he's getting, I'm getting not sure, but to stay with what the kind of stuff we want to get uncovered.
He does a very good job of, uh, of, uh, he tends to stay with what, you know, the kind of stuff, you know, good witness, the chance to shoot down the newspaper stories, because he holds them.
He doesn't want to get, uh, thrown in cover.
He does a very good job of the stories we're going to talk about today.
She's right from the beginning starts to change in the Bravo.
She's right from the beginning starts in the Bravo.
That's pretty good.
That's pretty good.
That's pretty good.
That's pretty good.
That's pretty good.
That's pretty good.
That's pretty good.
narrative himself that you know he said miles and so these things that he was ecstatic with himself for making some shitty remind the kind of dreams and smiles and so ecstatic with himself for making that he just kind of okay he gets up there
They're not going to win and get away with it.
They're going to pull away.
And they're going to pull away.
And they're going to pull away.
Because they aren't.
Because they aren't.
Because they aren't.
Because they aren't.
Because they aren't limited by.
rules of evidence limited by rules of evidence or procedure.
They really are.
They really are.
They modernize everything.
They hit off their mark on everything.
They hit off their mark on credibility.
And I think they will on jobs.
Credibility.
I think they will.
And I think they will, John.
I think they'll be.
They may come through a very good way.
But from what he said to me in the early days, when Mitchell came to get him to tell us, they may come through a very good way.
But from what he said to me in the early days, I can't lie.
That's true.
He can't lie.
Mitchell was trying to get him to tell one story.
You know, he was probably like, I can't lie.
That's true.
He can't lie.
You know, where did he tell it?
You know, where did he tell it?
And I get the, I get the, being watching on TV, being watching on TV, now that the guy has hit the gun.
Now that the guy has hit the gun.
Is that right?
Well, there's a different kind of guy.
He's just psyched up over himself.
Well, whether he's literally having a gun or whether he's just psyched to the left, I don't know.
But whether he's literally having a gun, he's brainwashed to himself.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Remember one point, Miss, when we were in the investigation, there was a hoarding.
I didn't know what.
I didn't know that until down the road here.
Remember one point, Miss, when we were in the investigation, there was a hoarding.
What?
Mitchell said, Mitchell said, you've got to, got to.
He said his view, what he is, is believable.
Believable.
That's what I heard.
Yeah.
Believable.
That's what I heard.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They were meeting.
The one thing he may be able to say that I still think he was probably saying that it's possible, probably, probably, probably, probably true.
bugging the Democrats, they include bugging the Democrats.
Then how does he handle it?
Then how does he handle it?
He grew up when they saw the bugging reports and said they weren't accurate.
He grew up when they saw the bugging reports and said they weren't accurate.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What would Rachel do about the cover so that he didn't do any mistakes?
A straight line credibility question.
He probably would face a position where he could possibly turn it off and do that.
What would Rachel do about the cover so that he didn't do any mistakes?
He probably would face a position where he could possibly
Okay.
Okay.
...visualized...
That was ridiculous.
That was when he was playing with a lot of sort of non-sequitur type games.
Which is visualized as turning it all around.
So they're turning it all around.
So they want to use it in a special way.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
It's his word against my word, and his word against your word.
It's his word against my word.
It's his word against my word.
It's his word against my word.
It's his word against my word.
You've got to find a way to do that.
You've got to do that, son.
You've got to do that, son.
You don't know how.
You don't know how.
You don't know how.
What is the situation?
What is the situation?
John.
John.
John.
John.
John.
... ... ... ...
What are your lawyers' stories?
What are your lawyers' stories?
What are your lawyers' stories?
What are your lawyers' stories?
What are your lawyers' stories?
We're going out of our state.
We're going out of our state.
That's the best.
Obviously.
First of all, that's the best for you.
That's the best for the country.
That's the best.
That's for the country.
There's not far any way that's
That's the best way to measure the person, the most desirable.
And if there's any way that we're invited, if there's any way that we're invited, then we've got to fight every, that's the most desirable objective.
If we're invited, then we've got to fight every,
Very technicality as well as the .
Tell me about John's case in California.
About John, he's going out there to case in California.
He's going out there.
Well, how the hell did I get him on that?
Well, how the hell did I get him on that?
Well, how the hell did I get him on that?
Well, how the hell did I get him on that?
Well, how the hell did I get him on that?
He's got a different volume from there.
He's got a different volume from there.
Very good trial lawyer.
He's got that good.
I heard that.
Very good trial lawyer.
He's got that good.
He was one of his judge friends.
I heard that.
Very good post-person.
He said balls.
Very good.
He was one of his judge friends too.
Very good post-person.
Just the ideal guy.
Just the ideal guy.
He's coming.
Stimulated circumstance.
Mitigation.
Oh, sure.
He's probably going to say the same thing.
Stimulated circumstance.
Mitigation.
Mitigation.
Mitigation.
This piece is, this is a crappy thing.
This piece is, this is a crappy thing.
Even in December and January, we were trying to get the story out.
We were trying to get the story out.
How we didn't do what I just did.
How we didn't do what I just did.
No, I don't know what the hell happened.
No, I don't know what the hell happened.
I just, we never knew what the story was.
You know, we just, we never knew what the story was.
You know, we still don't know what the story was.
We still don't know what the story was.
Instead of, what can you do?
What can you do?
How do you say that?
How do you say that?
Being different.
Finally.
Being different.
Finally.
Come in and say what?
Come in and say what?
Because he knew, he might have.
Because he really triggered us.
He knew, he might have.
But really triggered us.
He also cited the other problems with the other people.
He also cited the other question of where I was led from and what, you know, what problems with the other people and the question of where I was led and what, you know, what, at some point in there, too, he came up with a thing that I got a lot of from the Grand Jury at some point.
At some point in there, too, he came up with the thing that I'm going to log into the grand jury at some point, or I'll move it to the Senate and see if the prosecutors did the fifth.
He was early in the fifth.
He was early in early April before he went in to see the prosecutors.
Before in early April before he went in to see the prosecutors.
But Lydia told the whole story, and that's what flipped.
But Lydia had told the whole story.
And that's what they wanted.
Lydia never let them go forward.
That's right, yeah.
They wanted them.
Lydia never let them go forward.
But they got, they tend to beat them for fighting forward.
That's right, yeah.
But they got, they tend to beat them for by convincing him that Lydia told them everything.
Convincing him.
He clearly got in the league and told them everything.
But that's what knocked him open.
That's what turned things.
He was already.
That's what knocked him open.
They liked it.
It wasn't true.
The same thing about the group.
They're not going to do it over.
The same thing about the same group.
They're not going to do it over the same way.
They're not going to do it over the same way.
They're not going to do it over the same way.
They're not going to do it over the same way.
They're not going to do it over the same way.
They're not going to do it over the same way.
They're not going to do it over the same way.
I guess so.
I guess so.
That's my problem.
That's my problem.
That's my problem.
That's my problem.
Back.
Back.
So we'll get it for you.
Why?
Forget what happened.
Forget what happened.
For what god and reason?
What is that?
What is that?
What is that?
What is that?
you actually think
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
I don't recall, because you know, you have to be, you have to be in that period, because he was all like, oh, oh, he just reported it on the first meeting of the 22nd.
So, from the 21st to the 28th, then you need to be in the consent of that period, more time,
.
.
.
.
.
I'm sorry.
Last bomb.
Last bomb.
you take that time
There's so much bad out now.
It's discounted already.
There's so much bad out now.
If there's more bad, it's going to make that much difference.
If the original is bad, there's more bad.
It's going to make that much difference.
In terms of say, the president knew about the original.
In terms of say, that's going to be all good.
So we got into that.
So we got into that.
So we got into that.
So we got into that.
So we got into that.
Oh, I agree with my students that I didn't last in March.
I didn't know what day it was.
My point is that I stayed in my state when I was in middle school.
I don't remember when the first came in, essentially.
Oh, I know.
I was careful with my students that I didn't last in March.
Maybe he didn't.
But at that point, his line was that it was a certain stage of crime.
That there was the fact of the three
I didn't know about that.
You remember I said all that already.
Can't.
Sir.
We didn't have it.
And I told John, John called back.
And by the end of it, he came in and told me it was the best he had ever been told.
Well, great.
You see, I started selling it for a reason.
It's still nice.
Well, great.
The first time, it was, well, it's all nice.
We'll do it then.
We'll do it then.
I don't have a problem with it.
And then I told John, and John called it back.
And finally, he came in and told me that he had been distracted.
Yeah, he's a guy.
He was the secret agent for the other time.
He was the secret agent for the other time.
He was the secret agent for the other time.
on homosexual activities of candidates' brother, and I thought that would be a good thing.
But I didn't.
I didn't.
No, I didn't.
And the last thing that came up, I'm pretty lucky.
No, I didn't.
I didn't.
I didn't.
I didn't.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
All right.
Our tactics are unchanged.
I was honest with you.
because i think you've got all of the questions and i think it's a it's a long slow process to get it
get it done, but I think it's good to get it done.
It is getting done, and it is getting done.
You guys are going to change, dude.
We might have a way to kill you, kill us for a little while before we get the money good from you.
But when it's all over, they've overplayed their plan, as they always do, you know.
They've overstated their case.
And also,
There were some things done wrong.
Every president's done something wrong.
And there's no question that .
This is a result of some mistakes.
Sure.
But they were on the ground.
Mistakes made in the interest of the country, not mistakes that were made to try and avenge.
Any personal thoughts about any individual?
Because I think you've got all of the right is on your side.
And I think it's a long, slow process to get it out
But I think it's good to get out.
It is getting out.
And it is getting out.
We've got to go through more bad before we get the no good from it.
But when it's all over, they've overplayed their hand, as they always do.
And they've overstated their case.
There were some things done wrong.
Every president's done something wrong.
And there's no question that this is a result of some mistakes.
But they were honest mistakes made in the interest of the country, not mistakes that were made to try and advance any personal cause, benefit any individual.
And they, I'm not so sure that they were all mistakes.
I don't know.
I've often said that some of these, I don't know, that some of these things were wrong and wrong.
But I'm not sure that.
They write about what terrible people all these people were.
You know, all this shit they write about what terrible people all these people were.
The Syracuse just isn't true.
I mean, you have Syracuse to help.
You have a bunch of people.
You have a bunch of people.
You think we're the survivors, right?
You think we're the survivors.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.