On September 14, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, Michael J. ("Mike") Mansfield, Hugh Scott, and Clark MacGregor met in the Oval Office of the White House from 3:37 pm to 4:40 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 572-012 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Well, how are you?
You remind me of that 75-year-old guy.
That's the guy.
He's with you.
He's present.
You're Paul.
Rest it up.
You're here.
Sit over here.
Yes, I am.
You, you sit here.
Clark, you're here.
All right, sir.
Keep calm, sir.
the first time in over a decade that both the party and the party were in the same foreign country at the same time.
Yeah.
You were both at the I.D.
meeting in Paris.
No, in America, parliamentary.
Parliamentary meeting, yes.
The Russians, almost the first time, we actually adopted some Russian amendments and they adopted some of those to resolution.
We never had that kind of protection at all.
So the writers apparently had to go easy on us.
How long were you there to stay down?
About ten days in Paris.
I was in Russia, Bulgaria, and Romania for...
I know you were in Romania for four weeks.
I was in Russia.
You were probably one of the attorneys I worked with at the Kissinger and Alvarado house.
In the case of the interviews with Sussloff and Jafescu that I don't see you, which I have here, I'm doing.
And I'm asleep.
One condition, Chichester will speak freely.
I want to be sure.
I'm talking with you, you know.
Sure, yes.
I'm sure I've got you.
Good.
Good.
I've got to come up with all the suits for him.
The suit is supposed to be...
Supposed to be the brightest one.
Brightest he probably is.
He's said to be an iceberg in illusion.
He is not.
Huh.
He's a 200-pounder that wears big, oversized suits.
Tall, looks like a soga viewing them, professor.
Rather ironic.
way dialectician, but he turned out to be quite affable.
At the end of these talks, you know, I said, I hope someday that we can try to mention space to the Cosmonauts and Astronauts.
He said, well, don't say we have troubles enough on Earth.
But he had his position, but he was certainly much further than I think.
Yeah.
I said, Mr. Chairman, he's the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Station.
He was the Chairman.
I think the Soviet Union and the United States have even an even greater obligation to the rest of the world than to themselves, because, frankly, the rest of the world scares the hell out of all of us.
No matter what the ideology of the country involves, that's their private opinion, and both the big powers need to agree.
That is the truth.
I absolutely agree, and it's up to all of us to do something to reduce the injury.
Mike, let me ask you, I didn't, I didn't know what progress had been made, because I just saw all of this.
First of all, in terms of your office, how are we coming on our Montana business, did you know?
I was talking about going to Anchorage.
It would be a very good time for me to come by.
Good thing.
And a good time here.
The weather's good.
That's right.
Good thing.
And I thought you would go out then, too.
You'd be free on Friday, and you'd be delighted.
Well, we'd go out Friday.
And, oh, Saturday.
And go Saturday.
So you'd have the whole thing here this week.
Well, they said they had several things to consider that you wanted, uh, Kalispell.
Is that right?
Yes.
That's the only place that you're paid to land up there.
Right, and I've never visited it.
Never?
I've never visited it.
And the reason that, uh, that you want to do this is because of the property, which...
And one had a break.
And then you go right around the station.
And then you go out to Libby, which is about 60 miles by airway, which is over three quarters from here.
And you've got a good amount of resources to do the work.
Which, I think, would take too much of your time, two or three hours.
Mr. President, just tell us about all this stuff.
Takeoff?
Yeah.
Whitefish?
Whitefish.
I agree, but the only question they have is how much the helicopter, where you see that guy.
They tell me.
Yes, and it's all right close by there.
Hungry Horse, of course, is done.
I'll be over at Hungry Horse.
I'll be over at Hungry Horse.
Place your part coming in.
And that will give you a chance to move to Libby, which is about 85 standard feet.
Where is the one where they have a bridge that is, they want to dedicate or something, or a bridge or a dam or something?
Do you know about that?
No, that's Libby Dam.
Well, that's part of it.
In other words, there is something that gets completed that they're ready to hold.
Is that a bridge or a... No, I don't know.
Mr. President, there was a talk just in the paper with you about a bridge in the out part of the D.C. that worked out.
I can check.
What other towns have you changed?
Oh, that's Rexford.
Rexford.
That's the upper end of the Libby Reservoir.
In other words, it's above the dam, so I have to get rid of it.
The other end of the dam, but the government is taking care of that.
And this is one of the very few dams which is being built as a result of a pre-canada.
Because what do you want to do?
Oh, I see.
I see that.
So they have to have a dislocation.
He said he cried.
He said, my God, my man, I'm going to be important.
Why come back?
He's angry to the middle of the night.
He said, it's about two days.
Yeah.
And I have to be back here Monday night.
He says, it's maybe Eisenhower or something or the birthday.
What is it?
75th.
75th.
The president's in.
So?
Get dinner.
Well, they're raising money for the Eisenhower College.
I had not agreed to come with my wife.
I took all the back to get there.
I don't mind, of course.
I'm tall.
You know, I see that you did that on television the other night.
Oh, yeah.
I thought you were pretty good.
I just got in Saturday night.
I thought you'd be good.
That always helped me.
Well, there's only things that I can say.
There's a great deal of things I can say.
Oh, well.
One thing I thought that we could discuss while we were here, actually as far as the, on the domestic side, the so-called Patrick Poulsen-Dressen Senate,
We're going to have to wait for the House, practically, to come away with the rest.
And we are going to have a meeting, as I understand it, Friday afternoon.
It's going to be on page two.
And we will attend that meeting.
We invite you to that.
We are in a solid session with the Congress.
The chairman of the Republican Senate House of the Committee on Appropriations, Banking, Finance,
um, agriculture, commerce, labor, uh, as well as China economic today.
And... That's right.
And Israel, as well as the president, uh, unfortunately, there are a number of times we're going to have to overhaul the schedule with the rest of the, uh, the, uh,
No, it's the State Legislature.
The State Legislature is speaking today, sir.
That's his defense, though.
He wrote you a note which we just received an hour or so ago saying, please accept my apologies for being unable to be there and speaking to the Philadelphia General Assembly.
Now, Dick, Brett Patton must be in Berlin.
He is.
So we have a few that are present that are unable to speak.
Actually, well, we can get to a pretty good region.
Oh, a pretty good region.
Oh, I agree with you on that.
It would probably be better if we could meet them sometime soon.
Excellent.
Excellent job.
Yeah, Wilbur doesn't really have to say.
He just talks to the man.
You know.
As a matter of fact, Russell was some of them, actually.
Russell and John.
Russell talks to a lot of people, but you've got to talk to a lot of people.
That's right.
But at the same time, you're trying to fight them with all the others.
Yeah, I'm trying to fight them pretty quickly.
Oh, boy.
Well, we've got a lot of people.
We've got a lot of people.
We've got a lot of people.
We've got a lot of people.
We've got a lot of people.
We've got a lot of people.
And we do the business around this place.
This is, I know it's certainly important in the face of the parking adjustments.
It's got to be effective.
It will be.
And again, it has to, in order to work, it has to have an enormous portion of volunteer cooperation, which you can only get on some sort of five-parts basis.
That doesn't mean everybody's got to endorse everything, but it does mean that once we move, everybody's got to have a chance to give his pitch.
And we heard it, and we just don't know what to expect.
Senator, how long is it before we go?
It starts to be back at 10 or 8, I'm afraid.
That's in the afternoon.
Yes, sir, 2.30.
That's good, that's good.
Along that side, we've got that, and of course, they, I guess, my account is that the board did not, such an old, I don't know, just candidate who,
What more do you really think they could get through with this session?
You've got welfare reform, which of course is a controversy.
You've got revenue sharing, which is you've got to wait for the house.
You've got the health bill, where you personally want to hear it, I guess, or something.
But you've got, what am I supposed to read?
Those are the big ones.
We've got a portion of reorganization, which I recall, how it feels to make a lot of progress on two parts of that, which part of it is the one that is in development?
The one that is in development is apparently non-controversial.
It's largely natural resources.
It's not too bad if you've got the Army engineers satisfied.
Those are the two that we've been talking about.
Who built the Army engineering bureau?
Army.
Army.
Boy, we've got a hell of a fight between those two.
The other two are not really close.
But we can't let it go that way.
But Mr. President, Senators Kripochoff and Chuck Percy and others on the Senate Committee and Governor have given us great support.
And the considerable hearings have been held.
Senator McCollum is very helpful.
Yeah.
And, uh... Oh, and Chester.
Chester's been helpful.
Senator Davis is vitally interested in human resources.
So we need to anticipate that we'll make some quick committee progress.
Yeah, Chester.
We've got to get some help here.
and where they are, they're gonna start it.
And they said this morning, I said, next week we're gonna do it.
Well, we're gonna have a policy committee luncheon on Thursday, and one is to sit in front of them, and the other is to give consideration to your economic proposals.
And I'm gonna start it.
I guess I'm here to give you, or Tom, or Goldust, a list of what we think is mandatory.
We had planned on getting out about the 1st of November, but your child treatment has extended the period of death.
Is that true?
Yes, and it's still called for in that case, yes.
We might make it.
That would be a good idea.
We have a lot more vocation.
Isn't that right?
That's all I have waiting on the House of Lords.
On all these things, those that take welfare reform, revenue sharing, government reorganization, those three specifically.
It's hell that's further down the road.
That's a very complicated argument.
But those three, and I'm awful at making debates over what's been going on.
It finally gets down to records.
I don't know what the difference is between the top and the bottom.
And just, and God knows, you know, what'll happen to the Senate.
I mean, anything you can say, you can't tell when somebody's gonna decide, well, I'm gonna talk all the time.
That's part of our problem.
Well, anyway, just wish you well.
I would keep in touch with Boulder, who of course, I first see you as my, uh, my maintenance, and I'd like to, uh, continue our contact with you, Mike, you know, Mr. Newman, and I'll chat about these things.
I realize you also have a special problem in the Senate, don't you?
I'm keeping aware of the fact that the number of the presidential candidates is damn hard for those folks to, I mean, they gotta have their own shots.
And that lightens it up, I understand.
I'm not going to make any legislation for any of these candidates.
We told them in the beginning that we wouldn't do it.
If they're there flying, if they're in Saigon, I can cover this.
That's their business, but it's hard to make the statements, which everyone is trying to get through.
The problem with getting off first base is to get past the drag field.
That's right.
Yeah, I wanted to talk a little about, uh, the, uh, I got in, I got in an hour today just to have a little talk.
As I understand, he's got some things.
Uh, the, uh,
The problem there is, and you aren't here, you, so I understand it.
Were you here?
Yes, sir.
Were you here?
Yes, sir.
The problem, as I understand it, is this.
I can't believe it.
First, let's begin with some propositions.
One, there are some people who want to draft it off.
Two, there are some people like Calvin who want it, but they want it to be significant to change the case against us.
And three, there are others who may be able to take it around.
We've got to have a, like Mike said, we've got to have a closer to the Senate version than the House version.
Now, as I understand it, we've got a proposition.
It's long been split three ways.
That's going to be quite a problem.
The problem that we have currently in the House, as I understand it, is a very
talent position on the part of Abe Erickson, according to Erickson.
That's correct.
Having sat in the conference for five weeks, and having, they say, conceded on more than they would normally concede, that Abe is starting to want to go back and have another conference.
Is that right?
Abe Erickson told him that he has one of the best indicators that he will not go back to conference, that it's not possible, it's not crazy to not include Abe Erickson.
And of course we can.
can't function in the Congress as far as the House of Edges is concerned, but here we have a chapter of the committee that's leading the House of Auditions in the Congress.
So there it stands.
Well, what does it mean?
Does it mean that we're just starting to monitor that?
Well, I think it would be a motion made by somebody to take the authority
If the motion carries, it will go back to Congress, probably with instructions, having to do with the military claims.
If it doesn't, then we're faced with a filibuster.
And as far as I'm concerned, while I'm not in favor of the draft bill I never have been, I have stated that I will not engage in filibuster.
The question is how many people are willing to participate.
And that's going to come to closure.
Not enough participate.
You learn to break it down, but it's fiercely the wrong you drag this out, the more foolish that those who do us forget they do.
We'll look, and the press that's in the way of achieving our attack deficit will be noticeable, and kind of they'll be making them like the hoes.
So what I'm planning on doing, I talked this over with you in the tentative agreement.
I mentioned it to the Senate, and it was forced to.
What we'll do is to go on a two-track schedule, as I talked to you about, sir, a two-term.
Yes, with the comp report, half the day, a military procurement, which is going to take some time.
Uh, the other had because you would have the minister trying to cut down on the mission systems and cut taxes across the board, knock out taxes, shy ass, and whatnot.
That's all we got on the account of it.
The figure of motion, uh, fails now.
Uh, I don't know.
The White House is speaking for itself in the final year, so I'm glad we are, uh, put in the budget.
Oh, you can't delay it.
Not delay it until you're done with it.
I would hope that you could, at some point, see a way to go to Venezuela.
Well, I said I'd keep you in order, Mike.
I know that.
I have said that I will.
Let me, let me just say that, to both of you on this, I am confused, personally, with you all.
Everybody else is confused.
I pulled out and I said, look, I couldn't agree more with you on this whole thing.
I mean, I hate that.
I mean, I hate the lower ranks who've got the rank they should have gotten.
The usual way when the military always takes care of the higher ranks, and more than they could, that's the problem is that you've got it.
It's either that or nothing.
On the draft, it's the same.
We were living in a situation where I would say that I think whoever that
the view of our present situation, with particular regard to the Soviet East-West relations, things that are coming up and coming up soon, that they
the need to resolve this and to, to, to get it wrapped because he heard it.
Now, uh, I, uh, I'm not trying to tell you anything.
I'm not trying to say, but there are a lot of big secrets and so forth and so on that are not going to join an announcement.
Um, they, uh, you know, I mean, so, so forth.
But, there has been,
significant development, which is already leading with regard to in the arms talks against the war.
I will confirm that all this is going to be done.
I spent a day with Jared Smith.
in the high class group there.
Good job.
Good job.
Good job.
Good job.
Good job.
Good job.
Good job.
The folks that do that, because they .
The Air Force is, the Air Force is our guest.
The Air Force tends not to have a country for disabled animals at times, in my opinion.
But that's .
Well, I'm glad you're not thinking about your county, because there's too much that's going around.
Well, the only thing out there is Army police.
But they don't call you a retired police officer.
They don't call you a police.
with the Soviet, and one of the reasons we have to tackle the Chinese thing so closely with that, even more so, uh, secrecy is a mania, it's a passion.
They, they keep a secret.
And when we don't, they think that we print it.
In other words, they think, well, how often, they didn't know, why did they open it to keep it?
There's something remarkable that I, I delivered on a remark you made to me, and I'm sorry I should bring this such distress here, but
great concern for the maintenance of confidentiality, and he did.
And he said, oh, well, the Russians always preserve confidentiality as long as the other side is true.
On this, we will announce it, and it will be, I'll announce DERCY, which was our, it's not like the agreement, which should have been our agreement, the agreement that we had with the Soviet Union maybe two weeks ago, that this would be the date I'll announce it here in office.
And there'll be, and we're going to have that, Rovigo, Mike Ellis, when he comes over, have a signing ceremony.
which isn't good, not bad, because this is not, it is a pretty big thing, but it is not insignificant.
It is not insignificant because this business of accidental war, you know, with tests and everything that take place, and with some jackass smaller countries developing nuclear capability,
the possibility of somebody, you know, pushing the button because of something is enormous.
So, actually, it's a combination of two things, you probably know.
It's the actual work in hand.
It's an accelerated timeline.
But this is going forward.
Now, the other thing I should tell you, and I want you to know this is,
This is just to just forget you heard it, because it would be a, and I will not be specific, but in the next 30 days, there will be further progress.
What area I can't say, you should know, I mean, I'm not going to say it, but I'll tell you for the very reasons.
It is until they give us the go-aheads that we can't do it alone.
But my point is that,
The draft thing, and not in a direct way, but very important, indirectly, is very important.
It gets down to the fact that I know the views about how much of the defense is establishing, whether or not we really need the draft, whether or not we, of course, need to maintain our courses of work.
So if you know my position, I ought to reduce our
are forces to, on a mutual basis, but I am convinced from my experience with the smallest events, particularly with the Russians, that we cannot do so, that they will react only to the extent that we react, reciprocal react.
In other words, I'll put it another way, I do not, it has not been mine.
from my experience with them.
It was not my evaluation of their enemies prior to this time that we had to unilaterally, that they had to unilaterally.
Not in that field.
Not in the field of basically what is their major and our major force for defense.
In that field, it's cold turkey.
You do something, we do something.
But now, with the draft, it really relates to arms control, it relates to European security conference, it relates to all the rest.
To me, being perfectly candid, both of you, what I really strongly need, I feel very strongly, I need this for purposes
of maintaining a negotiating position.
If, for example, the draft bogged down or sunk, a negotiating position at NIU would be seriously jeopardized.
I don't say that as, well, I'm usually paid to be an old coal lawyer, sure.
I'll answer that, sir.
I'll take all other responses, but Mike, I'm sure you will agree that we've been pretty candid about this, you know, and I think our, yours and my goals are the same, and Hugh's are the same.
We have different ways of getting at the thing.
But I am convinced that this has played a part in our relations with the Russians.
And it's not like they actually greatly, not probably,
greatly than they can.
This is something I would say denied publicly, but greatly helped and probably, or at least given by the relations with the Chinese, the relations with the Russians, are now in a position where more movement is taking place than has taken place for a long time.
If you were exactly right on that, I think on the church and so forth, there's still an awful lot to be negotiated.
That's a tough plot line, because what we're negotiating there is about what looks good.
I mean, it's our vital way of even, often, saying, we've got some missiles, and Peter's going to give the others a significant advantage.
But the draft fits into this.
It fits into it, because if we're going to talk about the future, about force reductions, we're going to talk about
And also, in our continuing talks on arms control, it is important that there be a certain leverage that we have, a negotiating chip that we have.
On the other side of the coin is that, at least for the balance of a year and a quarter, I am the one that has to do it.
In fact, if you don't get it through, the position that I have in talking with the Russians, and there will be talks, further talks, is very weak.
That's really what it gets down to.
And if he and I say, take everything we do and all that, I understand when defense budgets are changed, modified, cut, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
on the track of that.
We have now made the thing such a clear issue that I just feel so strongly that we've got to get it, get it through.
Well, I have a question.
I mean, I might not be able to do anything about it, but you want us to succeed in the negotiation.
That's it.
We've got to succeed in the negotiation.
And I would like to see us get rid of the draft.
At some point, we just had to get on with something else.
We even had two track systems on the cable shed a long time, and that's the... You know, if you face the drag behind this... Peter, I'm gonna bust for a tape emulsion, and I think the best thing to do is to have somebody... somebody going to offer a tape emulsion on Thursday, and then... slide it off the mirror, and then call it back to conference, and that's it.
I agree.
Before the 10th of October, that's a very critical date.
Can you bear that in mind?
The President's given us a date, yes.
Well, I mean, he's not just looking on, it's right in his curve.
Whether it turns out to be always
But there are, there is movement.
There are things going on.
And the, and then we, and we want to keep the movement going.
That's really what I, what I, the reason I want to talk to you is to, you know, just frankly authorize your candidate, you know, not for the purpose of embarrassing.
I mean, absolutely.
I just think you ought to know that right now, we, we consider it very essential.
There's a lot of them.
They may be rough.
History is always almost a great thing, but they are certainly, they are certainly that great in its history.
But more than that, the movement is revolutionary.
So the way the Russians were cooperating, the way they were sending admissions everywhere in the world, all these guys, you know, we were able to see.
And then, you know, Trudeau called up down here, and the guy, you know, like, I don't know what they're, you know, they're like, oh, he says, can't we announce that you're going to come to Canada?
And I said, I've got to have the Russians, you know.
So I said, okay.
So he had to announce us first, but he wouldn't be.
for announcing the second directions.
I hope that we don't have any other companies that do that.
If you haven't matched us with the, uh, the traveling group, uh, we've only got four or five of their time came over.
Yes.
All the directions did.
If you get a lot of true-to-life calls, you can pull people.
But if you don't have as many technical applications, you can't divide them.
That's always a very, uh, you know, interesting thing there.
Well, to an extent, the Secretary of State, and on, and to an extent, of course, the Vice President, in terms of this situation.
In our country, in our system, particularly when you're dealing with totalitarians, I know they'll only get it from the President.
It's just strange.
That's why we might be able to send Kissinger to the D.C.
You see, because it had to be the White House.
It had to be Nixon and Joe and Lohan, most of the time.
And it's definitely the same through, well, the same.
So there's different Russians in this respect.
We do have to have a romantic relationship with the Russians.
We have sex on panels.
But if you take your brain, you're going to actually go to the same times.
But there are times when it is concentrated.
I've seen it.
It's his kitchen.
But this is because it's history.
It's because he's talking to the president.
Right.
I get that.
So we're supposed to.
And I, of course, Rogers is totally included.
He understands.
Patrick, I was in conversation this morning.
I had to have that a little late, but I was still trying to push a wall, push off a confrontation on this fucking plan.
In that result, what Cabot, Jarvis, and myself suggested would be, Bill Fulbright had a talk with Mel Ladd, and I think Mel would go up and see him, and that would help solve that problem.
I don't see Bill, I don't see Bill Fulbright, but I suggested that to him.
But the way it was met this morning, I talked to Clark and Cabot, and we agreed to probably cut a stall on any action.
That was done.
But, uh, I think if Bell is so as he does, or Bill is as he does, would you think it would be a good idea if he went after Tiff Hilton's body of man?
Now, it says he isn't one.
It says there is, but they're kind of together.
Well, Mel is a very shrewd, legislative, and part of the issue now, and he's very...
I think they'll be able to make a vision of why we are planned.
Well, that's not how it would be yesterday, and so that's why we are on this whole business of fighting and talking.
Oh, I can talk to this person.
You don't.
You know, really.
It's all that he uses, I think.
Yeah.
You know, let's go.
Somewhere in Bell's statements is a remarkable idea.
And Bill got his teeth into it.
It takes Bell around with it, I think, in person.
Sure.
Well, it's like everything else.
It's like me.
There are more groups in government studying about this, thinking about this, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
And then you hear about it, and you say, gee whiz, these characters are up to something.
Now, part of the time, we are.
But most of the time, we are.
You know, it's just the case.
Really, when you look at the Pentagon Papers, and the characters, the Johnson, all that thing.
And I should be a rebel to the last.
I'm trying to get to the last level, and I don't have to.
But in fairness, from what I have heard,
that a lot of this stuff they talked about was, you know, this study that was made in the Defense Department presented one point of view.
It didn't present, of course, the opposite side, John and Eddie's side, too, but it's the way it works.
There'll be some more.
It's part of the problem for the job.
Well, Mr. President, on this trip, I only spent two days at the ICU.
I've been looking to see if any of the countries in all of Portland, France, Italy, and Morocco, to find out about the
about the reaction to your new economic policy.
I sent a copy to a speaker last night through Andrew or Tom and also sent one down to Roger last night, one or two or three, and gave the speech today.
I found the reaction quite good.
Only one question.
They wondered how long is temporary.
and I repeated to them what you said in the White House meeting with the leadership of the committee chairman and the ranking members, that you did not intend to build a wall around the United States, and that you repeated that two days later in your speech in Springfield.
I said, I can't tell you how long this could have lasted, at least 90 days, but I said it's going to depend, to a wide extent, about the quotation basis for all the guarantees concerned in relation to the dollar and the dollar in relation to them.
I talked to Volker in Rome.
I had to see him.
He said, I'm going to have our women.
He didn't even know what he was going to stop.
But that's the big word.
They were afraid the word permanent may be too long for possibly permanent.
It might be too long for possibly permanent.
And I tried to persuade him to the best of my ability and said that as far as the
Opposition party was concerned, well, you might have differences in details in the economic position, as you referred to, that we were behind you on this, that something had to be done, and that it was overdue, as a matter of fact, and that they had something to do with your attack on the dollar beginning last April, and they held it against us.
So there's understanding that in all countries, including France, there's a bloody fear of how long that temporary peace
Your statements were extremely helpful.
You said, well, you called that statement here, and you said that the Germans were countering, as I said, when I tell you about what you were talking about.
The only question they had to raise was how long was that period.
That's right.
Let me talk to that subject, because I think you should.
You should know, you're both entitled to know how I feel about it.
Well, I feel what I think about temporary.
We will be tempted, my view, to be tempted because of foreign pressures and criticism, which will amount to move too quickly to a return to some
Jack laid, uh, change in the old system.
In which, uh, or, uh, papering it over, or, or, or enacting modifications to the old system.
Which will see us through another, uh, two months, twelve months maybe or so.
And then come to the same crisis again.
My view is that our public posture should be, this is temporary.
How long is temporary?
Well, however long is necessary to get the changes that really need to be made.
We do not want, this is a temporary program, but we do not want a temporary solution.
We want a permanent solution.
Now, in order to get a permanent solution, the temporary has to be longer than if you were looking for a temporary solution.
Now, take the Japanese.
And may I say, with all the talk about Japan, some of the Europeans are worse, if anything.
Believe me.
But the Japanese are just as tough as they can be.
And they could be.
I mean, that's the way they are.
You know, they're the toughest negotiators in the world.
But look at the Japanese.
At first they weren't doing a thing about the M9.
Then they moved to 5% and now they're talking about 10.
Well, the final analysis we may get, but we don't understand.
But, we also have some other fish that drive on them.
And some fish that drive with regard to some of their barriers to non-terrain barriers, but particularly barriers to regard to American investment.
There we allow enormous Japanese investment here.
And as you know, they're awful tough on us.
Now, this is the time when we've got these ships on our side to hold their feet to the fire until we get the right kind of heat.
Now that's what we're doing there.
In Europe, we have a different situation there.
It breaks down into different components because the Germans take a different view from the French.
And the British, of course, if you were sort of looking on both sides, they have a very different way to go.
that you've gotten actually having people have to dodge solicitors and so forth playing their games.
Having mentioned any of them, I have to say they've all got a look at their self-interest.
What could happen is that they could all get together and then we'd have a tough bargaining position.
But our attitude is that
that we want to go back and do, we want to attend these temporary venues only when we get the, are able to drive the best possible bargain that we can for the interest of the United States.
Now, let me say on the European side, I think all of us have got to realize, once they get written into the common market,
And once they start, and then they have an economic unit of 300 billion of the most productive people on the face of the earth, they're going to be a very, they're going to be held accountable.
Now, the United States,
can't play the role that it must play, being, shall we say, men who are backer to be generous to nations that aren't as strong and rich as the world as we are.
We have got to play a role, not of building a wall around ourselves.
I'm totally opposed to that.
Not of being belligerent and completely intractable in our meetings.
But we certainly have to do what is necessary in our own interest and in the interest of a more stable world order of making the best possible bargain we can with the Europeans and Japanese.
Now there are two other areas of mine that's particularly interesting in this, and you I know, you probably are too, which is why you get, once you get the Europeans and the Japanese, now here's your major trading countries and major problems.
But you've got Latin America, for example.
You've got Mexico.
You've got Africa, of course, which is almost totally out of the game except for that.
And of course, you've got those billions down in South Asia and the other Asian countries other than the Japanese.
And while they are...
I'm sorry.
I was going to say, it's been a long time since Bretton Woods spoke.
Twenty-five years.
That's right.
So what you've come down, but only when we have a plan.
But now, for example, we get each other bought.
Give us a dollar.
Two dollars.
whether or not we want to have, say, maybe a different treatment for Latin America.
We did.
I made one slight change.
You know, it was to be, I was sent to Latin America from a foreign agent, and I think we should have made $15 million.
They're all so damn sensitive anyway now.
$15 million for Alliance for Progress and so forth isn't going to make the greatest.
But in the other areas of the world, we've got to...
take a hard look at what, what do we want to do with the associations.
So, so to answer your question, I was raised this morning, I didn't have a chance to respond to it, but sitting here in New York and in Washington, we inevitably
are enormously affected, put it quite bluntly, by the international traders, by the international bankers, and by European, British opinion, and British opinion, and by, to a certain extent, Japanese opinion.
We've got to take a little heat for a while.
We've been for too long now, the United States has, I think,
not recognize the fact that the world, the economic world, leaving out the military, the economic world has significantly changed.
And that now, we've got to make a, we've got to cut a new deal.
That's really, so you see, that's why, that's why I want you to know that I, that I'm here, I meant exactly what we said.
We're not going to build a wall.
It is temporary.
But temporary is going to be longer due to the fact that we don't want another, we don't want a temporary solution.
Well, it wouldn't be green light.
Yeah, it sure isn't.
I think it's going to be one for a minute.
See, right afterwards, for example, Volker and Arden Burns both talked to me, and they said, Chief, we've got to get in our horses.
We'll oversee if we can't patch this up.
And Connor and I said, well, it's too soon.
Too soon.
They're not ready.
Can't we try to patch it up?
They didn't patch it mighty fast.
And we said, all right, no, we don't care.
We're the nice boys again.
We wouldn't have that.
That's right.
So, our interests are very important.
You know, you start thinking of being able to trade at the present time.
It's, sure, many say, well, what the hell is trade in a trillion dollar economy?
You've got 15 billion dollars, only 15 billion to trade.
Well, maybe not too much.
Let's look at it another way.
Trade.
also means an enormous American market.
The American market is the biggest in the world.
All these people want in.
I'm fine, let them in.
But we gotta get into their markets.
Take your agricultural products.
I told a bunch of farmers this morning, I said that they were concerned.
They said, look, we have to work with CenterWalk's search engine because we're afraid that they are going to
have some regulatory action on their part.
I said, yes, they may.
I said, but in the long run, you and agriculture are sitting in the camp for a seat here.
Because of all the major enterprises in the United States, agriculture is by far the most productive and the most competitive.
We can compete with anybody in the world in agriculture.
Now, therefore, when the deal is finally made, agriculture
We really had to assess if they got old enough for agriculture products to let more of it into the economy like theirs did.
But the old ideas, Mike, you and I supported it.
You supported it before I was here.
But anyway, starting with the Marshall Plan, which I was here.
The Marshall Plan, reciprocal trade.
You remember?
Yes.
All these things.
Now look, I was for all those things.
The world changed.
The European competition is illustrated by Austria.
Then we had two phases.
We supplied Austria with Russian language games, which I've always seen, but that's the main difference.
When those machines wore out, they didn't buy the machines from us.
They bought them from Switzerland and Belgium.
So we set them up all over the world in Washington, D.C.
When they were ready to go no further with bad machinery, they bought it somewhere else.
And we can't tell you in what way.
Now, the United States and India and Philadelphia can only buy certain precision instruments from Switzerland.
But you know, I don't really complain about that, except I just want to put some hearts.
Yeah, but question me.
You ought to be a chancellor.
Maybe we ought to start paying back the United States some of the things, some of the money they gave us.
In fact, I've got a Christmas tree for the hell of August.
The only invoice is $50,000.
Very odd thought that he's rich, if you know what I'm saying.
I don't know.
Well, he didn't offer it.
No, no, no, no.
He suggested that for him.
Well, this is our thing.
It's a, let me say, our real problem here is that both of you, as I am, are basically internecine-minded and not isolation-minded.
One of our major problems is that an awful lot of isolation is done in this building in this county.
We take the labor union.
Boy, they had turned around almost totally.
I talked to them and they said, hell, they don't, they said, please, that's our charge.
We don't want that.
We can't compete with these people.
And, you know, there's people over in Japan and all the rest.
You know, they were, you know, 25 years ago when America did not compete with anybody in the world, they were the free traders.
The labor unions later are now the pretentious.
I had a very interesting reaction incidentally when I found out about this group of farmers in here.
I thought one of them, I think he was
No, no, this was from the Association of Farmers.
Don't give a new labor contract that some California farmers have been forced into, in which there was a provision that for three years, for three years, on that big farm out there, they could
Put it in a new automatic equipment.
Now, look at that.
That is retrogressive.
No new parts.
Yes, at a time when you're trying to pick tomorrow, that's automatic equipment, for example.
I see.
Are they?
Yes.
I didn't know they had any of that.
We have a problem.
Just put it in.
Isn't that something?
You could pick something that's... We have a collective association, too.
How is it they do that with operating skin and all that?
I don't know.
He's got, of course, he's got an operating arm on his groin.
Yeah.
He was a fresh-headed guy.
You'd think he'd take a little boy back through the years.
He lied with me in the coffee town and all the things.
American agriculture is a wonder to see.
I wonder if you see those farmers.
They're hard to deal with, but, boy, they're great.
I tell you, you would have to have been curious.
You certainly did.
You certainly did.
The point you made about Mr. Weaver, my director of California, that's caught my attention by three fellow 49ers, unless it was Chuck T. Burt, who I've met a lot of times, heavy.
areas in Santa Barbara, and much of the interest, Mr. President, in legislation in the field of transportation-related strikes involving the national interest as it impacts on agriculture comes from the agriculture area in the country.
I know it's a change, Mike, in the attitudes towards the President's proposal for a settlement
Strikes are a paramount interest in all the transportation in the industry.
That's got to be done.
Agricultural people are becoming more and more interested in this because of the equipment.
Well, that's the other problem here.
For my effect, that dock strike is just killing Hawaii.
I mean, you talk to your Hawaii senators, they're all good.
They're just dying out there.
And it's just not going to hang out with the California people.
And all the time, you've got dock strikes, you've got railroad strikes, you've got truckers.
But transportation simply has got to be put in some kind of a new form, in my opinion.
Because before too long, we don't.
You're going to have a situation where the carcass is going to be in every one of them.
And I'd like to see you again shortly when you have that discussion.
Well, I think we can't decide it all today, but I appreciate you coming on.
Yeah.
I saw a team this morning.
And he said, let's just ask the mayor.
He'd like to come, but I guess he had trouble there.
How should I attend to his wife, sir?
And he told me to extend his best and first of all wishes and high regards to you.
And he expressed a hope that it would be possible for him to come here to stay for some time this fall to meet with you.
Pass that around to him, because we, it's been on and off again there, and I know why.
He's got deep problems.
Who got into the Middle East?
No, no, no further.
Did he talk about Israel?
Look, he asked me about the Middle East.
The Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, the President of the Chamber.
And I said that we agreed with the Nixon-Rogers policies in the Middle East that we did not intend to become involved.
that we were going to walk a line down the bay with everything we could to get the Arabs and the Israelis together.
I said, now, since this revolt was moderated over a year ago, there has been very, very, very little way of fighting.
I said, it's my impression that the President intends to continue on that policy as far as the Democrats are concerned.
We intend to support it.
I can't speak for all Democrats.
I didn't say that.
I'm sure this is an answer from the General.
And colleagues felt the same way.
And they said, no, no, they don't.
We've discussed this before.
There's another problem here at home, Mr. Rice.
For example, the Saudis are sending somebody home to see me.
And they're concerned because we don't make records.
That would be part of treachery, I think.
He's a very unreasonable man.
I don't pay him any remand.
He's always watching you at risk.
You don't know what the trouble is.
The trouble is, we cannot get the Israelis to budge.
I think that, and of course, I think people were very frank with you, because, you know, you've got another great sports, and you have to be, should be, from your state.
But by God, at the present time, with these release, they don't budge an inch.
They figured that they had us over a barrel because of the American political situation.
They figured that they could come here and get more claims and so forth and tell the Arabs to go too.
That's what they did.
I think that their strength in this country is decreasing.
They're not getting any contributions.
As I say, I'm interested to know, economically, I think they're in a hole in their budget, just beneath their expenditures.
And they're having difficulties with the so-called Black Panthers there, who are Asiatic Jews, who are shutting down the bottom, whereas the other immigrants are getting all the better.
I'll be darned.
The one thing is, I think you've got to keep the pressure on them.
I think their position is indefensible.
They're not willing to withdraw, at least to some degree.
I'd be astonished if they could get my very proper opinion to support the younger Jews, the President.
are falling away from, the United States are falling away from their fathers in terms of going to UGA meetings.
In fact, a close friend of mine, who's a rabbi in the old district that I used to represent, tells me that the sons of the people who were his age, and he's the second one, and he cannot, the father's cannot get them to go to UGA meetings.
They won't go to bond with people who started bond meetings.
Well, Bill Rogers says that there's a split, an age split in Israel at some point.
He says the younger Jews, I mean, the younger's race.
One of you, one of you, you've been there.
I've been there.
Have you?
I was there just a year, I was there just a year ago.
Everybody wants to see it.
They're fantastic people.
I've been on there a ton.
But the oldest one, and probably the smartest one, Ben Gurion, wants to almost go back to the year 1967.
Well, let me tell you this.
If Matt Curry were here, we'd have to think something.
Sure.
And that's what I'm trying to tell you.
I think that the general over here, Guy, he's a reasonable fellow.
But he has this good house that says the massage happens.
Oh yeah, they have a guy defending every injury.
And there's a fireman in the back.
He leads an action.
It's a woman, a white woman right here.
And she demonstrates the fire away from the fireman.
She's a great agent, but I understand it lies to her to get his name.
I ain't.
It's not reasonable.
I think it's very important that the Israel Congress
I'm getting pregnant that they can just be as unreasonable as hell and expect the United States to bail them out.
Now, if you had, Mike, another Jordanian crisis, you know, we'd suck that one.
You never know.
I don't know.
I don't know what's going to happen.
Well, of course, it was not unexpected.
that every one of these Moroccan officials asked about the Middle East.
Sure, I invested money back because Morocco's in a very tough position.
You know, there's three ways at once.
In the East, because it's Arab, and in the West, because it's West, we are leaning into this country somehow, huh?
You know, I love that North Africa.
You know, it's just always, I like to go there.
I've never been there.
Morocco's a land of contrasts, you've got these cosmopolitan cities, and you've got the mountains, you've got the desert beyond, a new civilization, you've got the best climate in the world, clear skies, you've got the mountain, and, uh, all kinds of problems.
You can't believe that, it's just, it's worse than the church walls, it's worse than the paratroopers, it's worse than the hotel, it's worse than the big city country of Montana, it's the state of Morocco, it's got the greatest God, it's not just the city of Morocco.
They'll make a man.
They'll make a man, just like the Spanish did.
Man, it's just, Maine's a wonderful country to visit.
It was.
It's probably just full of tourists.
Well, this friend of mine, I'll say nothing about the... No, no, we have to be sure we get a hero in Oregon.
But at any time I go, I hope you will give us some thoughtful consideration of the draft.
It's just terribly important.
It's a bigger game.
Much bigger game.
And, uh, we, uh, we can, we can come around to different solutions later.
We need it now.
We need it now for reasons that are terribly important.