Conversation 646-005

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It's a beautiful day at home.

You ought to be out playing your 27 holes of golf tonight.

That's enough to treat you.

See, now that you're in the weather, this is a magnificent weather.

No comparison, but they really are.

Thank you.

we'll be ready to see if we're going to have a aren't we having a full cabin meeting that afternoon

Oh, is he?

I didn't know that.

This is a secret, but I want you to know about it.

Or he's leaving Ukraine to pay for the finance.

He's going to do the finance.

He's going to have to leave early.

His damn law has just made it impossible.

He's got to collect his money now before the law goes into effect.

If the law is in effect, it probably will come into effect a few days or so.

But you should know that when is that going to be announced?

I thought it would be announced by now.

I don't know.

What is today?

Today is the 12th.

Well, he's a great, great worker.

But you go ahead.

I appreciate your time.

And I've got two or three things.

That's right.

Oh, have you heard that I am going out of Houston?

I did this morning, and I'm delighted.

I had to think that you'd work it out.

Now, what day are you going to speak?

I speak the next day.

I think you're scheduled on the 24th.

I'm going on the 24th.

And if possible, I'd like to be able to fly down when you fly down.

Whether you're here or abroad.

I'd fly down just in time to catch the plane and fly over there.

I'd rather do that than to go in separately.

You should come in with me.

So you drop down to Florida and fly right in.

Good.

I have to be in Florida because I'm trying.

I've started to do the boarding up to the China trip.

So I have to be in a place to read.

You've got questions.

No, I'm just going to be in combat with your tank.

I'm going to pack that after.

I have to talk the next day.

Yeah.

Well, I'm delighted.

John, would you be sure that whatever I'm saying there is coordinated with George's speech?

Right.

Well, it's all right for us to repeat some certain things.

I'm going to speak quite briefly, actually, for all the time I'm going to get and everything.

But it's very important that we are coordinated.

Okay.

Thank you.

That group should really give you all the support they can.

Well, coming here, because I remember when you had them in here.

Oh, yes.

They were really down-to-mouth, remember?

If it hadn't been for what you did the last two years, it would have been way to... Look, what I'm going to say is...

I'm going to say what you did.

You've been a bear cow.

Everybody knows it.

They know it.

That would be right at the...

We've got some problems in the housing field because we implemented things that hadn't been tested.

There are certain investigative committees now that are checking into some of the problems we're aware of.

We've got some audit reports, and I may release those in the next two or three weeks.

to indicate that we discovered and what we're doing to correct these problems so that we're not on the defenses before these congressional committees when they get into it.

Well, we've done a good deal, John, but we've still got a little distance to go.

I just got the latest, I just got the report reports in the last few days, the last of them on 236.

But I just want you to know that.

You don't want coffee, do you?

No, I don't want a thing.

Well, that's fine.

I know you're here.

You've got the best memory of anyone I know.

I want to say my God.

All right.

Well, let me get this new emitter for the... Hello.

If I may, let me hit this page at a time, because I've tried to put this in Kiplinger fashion here so I can do it quickly, and convey the picture here.

What this is is a new initiative for the National Growth Policy.

and possibly some reference in the State of the Union.

But the basic premise is that neither rural areas nor cities can be saved from Washington, which is your basic premise.

And the national growth policy considerations should face the fact that we're going to experience our greatest growth in the period ahead.

Without a basic change in our rural and urban approaches, our problems are going to be worse at the end of this growth rather than better, as far as I can see.

The new revolution is essential, but it's not enough.

Now, the current approaches have not succeeded.

Despite increasing federal efforts, the rural areas continue to decline, the central cities continue to rot, the suburbs continue to disorderly growth, the fundamental cause of fragmented federal programs, apathy of state governments, balkanized local governments, and unfocused private efforts.

Now, past federal initiatives have managed to grow.

Mr. President, in the past, the nation has periodically adopted initiatives to help shape national growth.

The Cumberland Road and the National Road Program is an example, the canal system, the Homestead Act, the Land Grant Colleges, and the Railroad Grant.

Now, some recent examples of this are the Federal Housing Administration, where homeownership is encouraged through the insurance program, the Interstate Highway System, and the most recent ones are Operation Breakthrough.

Now, let me explain that just briefly.

What we did was to solicit on a competitive basis proposals from state and local units of government for sites where we would locate industrialized housing.

And we told them, you've got to be willing to set aside building code restraints.

You've got to be willing to set aside zoning.

You've got to be willing to work with us to get the unions to set aside their trade restrictions to permit us to put these units on this site.

And you have to make that agreement before we'll even consider your site.

Now, we had 130 proposals from most states and well across the country where they waived those considerations as a means of being eligible.

Then we solicited proposals from companies for housing systems, and we had about 300 proposals submitted.

We only selected 22.

The 22 who lost, who are semifinalists, of those 22, all but two have built their factories.

In other words, even though they lost, they went into it.

And of the next 150 companies in order of rank, two-thirds of them have put up factories.

So we have hundreds of factories across this country today to use more modern methods in building housing.

So the fallout results...

And furthermore, at the time we started this program, Mr. President, there wasn't a single state where you could build a house and have that located in any community of the state.

Connecticut became the first state after we held the meetings with the governors in late 69.

Now there are 20 states.

Now they're entering into interstate arrangements as a result of which a house inspected in one state can be located in any other state without re-inspection.

So this beginning opened up a national housing market

The same way we've got a national automobile market.

And that's what...

Which is the thing you talked about.

That's right.

Now, also on the trade union field, there are over 100 union contracts now that the unions have with these factory producers that are based on factory wage rates, which are about half these exorbitant craft wage rates.

And the labor union has about half these contracts.

The plumbers, the carpenters, and the electricians have these contracts.

In other words, the unions are coming along now and accepting prefabricated stuff to an extent they didn't before.

I don't think they were completely home on that.

But we've made more progress in that respect than we expected.

And the fallout, and the fallout result here has really exceeded what we've done with a relatively small amount of money.

Because what we've done with Breakthrough, which was a catalyst,

It didn't create new things.

It just simply gelled things that people knew could be done if there was something to get it done.

And the fallout results have been greater than the direct results.

And we have refocused the housing industry and its future because instead of thinking of the old on-site methods, the old saw and hammer methods, they're now thinking of production methods, and that's where the research is.

So that refocuses the industry in important points.

Now this Columbia, you're familiar with Jim Rouse in Columbia and the fact he went out and built a new community because he couldn't get the people in Baltimore to try and deal with the things he thought had reshaped the greater Baltimore as a result of what he's done in that new community.

He's now up in Hartford at the request of the business people up there.

They put up $3 million.

And I think you're familiar with, to some extent, with this greater Hartford process.

He's got a problem with that connection.

But in any event, he is making progress in getting a consortium

consortium in Hartford of the private leadership and representative citizens, the local government, the state, in lifting their sights above this question of what's going to happen to the central city of Hartford in connection with suburbs and the race problems and the taxes.

He's got them looking at how can we make use of all of our resources, including the federal programs, to create a greater Hartford of the future, including the new communities.

Because what he demonstrated at Columbia, and the thing he emphasized as much as anything else is, that when you lift people up to a scale beyond these narrow issues that arise on a neighborhood basis, and get them looking at what can be done on an overall basis that will be beneficial to everybody, and will help everybody, then you can do things you can't possibly do when you try to deal with it at a lower level.

And as he has pointed out many times, he was able to do what he did in Columbia, the county where Wallace got his biggest vote, an integrated new community, biggest vote in Maryland, because of the scale to which he approached it.

So that's an important aspect of this, and this proposal is related now.

A second fundamental connection to this concept tackle is the power of example.

When Bannister broke the four-minute,

on the mile, more people began to do it.

It's commonplace now.

The Rockefeller Center in New York City began the renewal of Fifth Avenue.

That sparked the Golden Triangle in Pittsburgh.

The Golden Triangle is still sparking the renewal of downtown business areas.

Bob Marion, at the last ACIR meeting, said that his firm had just been retained by Milwaukee, and they told him to do for Milwaukee what was done in Pittsburgh.

So that, and the New Haven made use of urban renewal and so on, the federal program's a big way, that's an example.

This New York State Urban Development Corporation is an example of some of the influences of states.

Now, what we need is, are some examples of what can be done on a community-wide basis, an area-wide basis in rural and urban areas

if we can get the state and the local communities and the private leadership going to get forward together to improve the living environments of both urban and rural areas and what a total approach can produce and how it can benefit everybody, the suburbanites, the ruralites, the poor, the rich, the people of different races and so on, and what can be achieved in serving present and future Americans through more effective use of available knowledge and resources.

Now, what we need is a catalyst.

something that will stimulate people to begin to approach things on this larger scale that they're doing up in Hartford, to create examples by a focusing of the interrelated federal resources that we have, by mobilizing public and private leadership, by marshaling public and private resources and expertise, and by assigning the public priorities necessary to get the job done.

And this should result not from the federal government telling citizens what they should do or how they should do it, but rather from local decisions and local initiatives.

Now, what we're proposing is operations tackle as a catalyst.

Tackle because it's a total approach.

It involves the same approach as the Hartford process, where you undertake to plan for the social requirements, the economic requirements, and the physical requirements, so the total area.

It's American because it's local initiative.

It requires cooperation, which we're skilled in, and it uses the stimulus of competition, as I'll point out.

It's community because it's the real city.

In other words, it doesn't stop, Mr. President, at the 8-mile in Detroit.

After all, the start of this century, the city of Detroit extended up to the 3-mile road.

by the 20s it was out to the Six Mile Road, by the late 20s it was out to the Eight Mile Road, now it's out to the 20, Detroit ends at the Eight Mile Road, but now it's out to the 23 Mile Road, but there are all these,

suburban communities around it, and there are 400 separate autonomous local units of government in that metropolitan area.

There are over a thousand in the metropolitan area of Chicago.

And they're so falconized at that level that they can't get at these interrelated problems they have on a community basis on the basis of the real city today instead of this fragmented structure that's built up.

Now, in the rural areas, you've got these little communities that have declined to the point where, with modern requirements, they can't afford them.

And if, with state help, they can get them to group together on an area basis around growth centers, which we've spent a lot of time discussing, they can do things they can't do separately.

And so the community approach means the real city instead of the balkanized city and the rural growth center is a means of lifting some of these rural areas.

And then a living environment because it involves all aspects of living.

The environment.

Now the catalyst, the catalytic instrument is this Operation Atlas.

What it would be is a national action research competition open to all rural and urban areas and

Any rural or urban area that would pull together a consortium of state and local leadership for the area and private leadership that had clear indication of the capacity to plan and develop that area would be entitled to matching money to come up with concepts and to determine which consortia can achieve it.

And the purpose of this competition would be to determine which of these consortia

could achieve the greatest improvement in living environment if enforced on a total basis using all available resources and without the hampering effect of artificial barriers created by automotive governmental structures or practices.

And there isn't any reason why this couldn't encourage these communities to get at the property tax and some of the other barriers as well as others.

Now, how would this competition work?

Well,

We would first convene, first I would have a presidential identification as a presidential supportive program.

With that, we would call meetings of governors, mayors, and private citizens.

We'd publicize what this is all about.

And we'd make a request for consortia proposals, for evidence that they can create a consortium in their particular area.

And any area that can would then get matching funds on a 50-50 basis to submit development concepts.

And from those who submitted development concepts, we'd select 40, 20 rural and 20 metropolitan.

And the selection of those semifinalists would be on the basis of the substance of what they proposed,

the effectiveness of the process they were proposing, and the degree of improvement that what they proposed promised to provide.

In other words, a community that may be behind other communities now, if its degree of improvement is greater, would come through.

And we'd get a representative community so that you could have examples that could be replicated.

Now, to take 19 months for that phase, and the judging and so on, phase two is a 23-month stretch.

the 40 selected would get matching funds to actually develop their concepts in more detail.

In that period, to undertake some pilot demonstrations, so you've got some evidence they can do what they say they're going to do, and then a submission of detailed action programs and a selection of 20 finalists.

Now, those 20 finalists

would then be funded over and beyond priority treatment under the existing programs.

If revenue sharing comes in in the meantime, and I think it will, you get an agreement from the states and the local units of government that if they have a winner, that they will take from general revenue sharing, special revenue sharing funds, enough to match what the federal government would put up to equal what the federal government has indicated it would commit.

Now, the amount of money involved here in this first 19-month period in the federal government, as nearly as we can estimate, is $15 million.

Now, the 23-month period, it's $80 million on a matching basis.

All right, yeah.

Now, in the six- to eight-year period, we're saying, let's give the winning 20 communities a billion dollars for each of six years.

Now, they're spread over a longer period.

The first year, which would be 1975, which you'd have any outlay, would be $81 million.

And one of the, the peak is around $1,113,000,000 in about the third year.

But one of the advantages of this approach is that this can be done, Mr. President, I'm absolutely convinced,

within the limits of what we will have appropriated for these programs anyway.

We don't have to get any congressional approval.

We don't have to go and get congressional action.

And this initiative could provide a positive approach to this dementia program.

Now, the following here is just this operation tackle.

It shows the different stages here on this chart.

Then the next chart shows the time sequence there.

And the third chart there, 32, shows the assumptions.

We've assumed a certain number of areas would qualify in the first phase, and then the second phase aspect, the 40 and the 20 for the last phase.

And on page 33,

you get a breakdown of the amount involved for the different segments.

Now, based on our experience, Mr. President, with urban renewal and some programs of that type that are catalytic, we get an expenditure of about $5 of private money for every dollar of government money.

So what we're estimating here, assuming here, is that we get at least that in this program and that you get a private expenditure of $40 billion against the

federal and state and local expenditure of $8 billion, six of which is federal.

Now, the next sheet there, Operation Tackle, shows the estimated obligations and budgetary outlays by fiscal years after you get beyond the planning stage, the $81 million I indicated.

And that brings me to the last page.

and just some of the basic concepts.

The concept here is scale, to get these people taking a look at their total community rather than this fragmented approach that raises all the problems.

And the concept of flanking here.

Instead of trying to get these things head on, just as we did with Breakthrough, Mr. President, what we did with Breakthrough, and what we did with Rainwood,

was to flame the things that we had to contend with.

It was the old Alexander technique.

After all, Alexander conquered the world by flanking forces greater than he had.

And breakthrough, you see, by this competition, we flanked this opposition of the unions.

We flanked the building quote situation, the zoning situation, to get this thing moving.

Now, I believe that this competition would result in

states and local communities and people in local communities tend to forget about this suburban central city controversy and this racial situation and get at this question of what can they do to make this total community a better community.

It's a flanking operation.

It doesn't require congressional action.

It's a purely voluntary participation.

We're not asking anybody.

We don't tell anybody that they have to participate.

They participate if they want to.

If they don't want to, they don't.

It's a local initiative.

It's a local program.

It's state-local private cooperation.

It's a catalytic program.

And in my opinion, the far-light results would be greater than the direct results in the 20 areas because if you can get these views, take a look at what can be done, my opinion is going to identify a lot of things that are going to do anything.

And I think that we need dramatic action that would shift the focus from all these fragmented promises to take a look at what could be done on a total basis.

Now, I don't think this is probably worth a ton without a presidential priority.

I don't think it'll work within the administration without the direction by a clearly identified leader.

I think for this to work, it would have to have a domestic council committee of the heads of the domestic departments.

It would involve most of the domestic departments.

That's right.

And I think you'd have to have essentially the John Connolly approach that you've had on the new economic program would make this work, where you identify somebody.

Because he's had the cooperation of all the departments.

And it's a great example of the willingness of these departments to cooperate.

Now, I don't expect that this meeting Friday afternoon to get the council members to say, oh, this is the thing to do.

They'll want to think about it.

They'll want to think about it, plus this thing.

We've had some discussion of this in the national group subcommittee, but only one or two of the, I think, three cabinet members attended.

Yeah, they did.

President, Secretary.

And you get a different subordinate every time.

Now, it's all this thing.

Now, I've had Jim Rouse, and I've had Tony Downs, and Bill Coleman, who's the staff head of advisory council on intergovernmental relations, and Holman of the Urban League.

I've had some experts of that type.

They're more enthusiastic about this.

There's been a leak about this.

I don't know how the leak occurred.

In the Wall Street Journal.

We had a call yesterday from Henry Feldman down in Oklahoma.

He's down in Oklahoma.

No, he says, look, the business group is here.

They've read that article in the Wall Street Journal.

Can't you put somebody on the phone and tell us how we can get in on this thing?

I had a...

The Chamber of Commerce people came over to see me.

They were excited about what they wanted to get in on it.

We had some very enthusiastic partners.

Well, Booth and Harbaugh... Well, I haven't talked to them directly about it, but... We tried to keep it within.

We did call in this... For the idea, yeah.

Well, this was my idea, if you want.

But in any event, we haven't...

But with the help of the others, we've developed it.

But now...

I have had this test of it.

Early last week, I came up against the fact that in undertaking the deal with the congressional mandate that we determine the causes of housing abandonment in these central cities.

Because what's happening, Mr. President, is that people are just walking away from homes they own in these central cities and letting them deteriorate.

And they're being vandalized on it.

And this is a very critical problem in a number of the major cities.

Because...

What's happening in these metropolitan areas, Mr. President, is this, and it's a very simple analogy.

When public housing was first adopted and these projects were put up, they were filled with families of a mixed character.

Some were stable, some were problem families.

As time passed, the ones that could get ahead moved out, and now we've got these public housing projects loaded with the problem families.

In the central cities, Mr. President, the same process is operating.

The confinement of the problem families, and this is white and black, but the problem families of the central city and the problems of the metropolitan area is converting those central cities into places where the crime and the social problems as well as the physical problems are so great that the sources of private funds have abandoned those central cities.

This is true in city after city, in St. Louis, in Detroit.

The federal government's the only one financing real estate transactions in there now.

Is that right?

Yes.

In Detroit, you've got a trickle of money, but there are many of these communities where the private money's really moved up.

Now, I'm confronted under the statute with determining the causes of these things, and as I've studied it, I've become convinced that you can't deal with this housing abandonment problem without dealing with reducing crime.

But the principal reason you're walking away is because life is security.

Scared.

And then drug addiction, all this.

So, the early part of last week,

I decided that instead of trying to deal with this problem that we're going to face as a result of the congressional investigating committees and so on, and on their terms, that I would try to focus the issue around the real problem, which is this fragmentation of local government.

How long do you work on this?

Oh, about two months.

Now, I called, so the first of last week, I called John Mitchell, I called Elliot Richardson, I called Banks because Volpe was away, and I called Jim Hodgson.

I told him of this housing problem I was up against.

I said, would you be willing

to designate someone to cooperate with our department in taking a look at what we could do to deal with this housing abandonment problem in five test cities on a metropolitan basis and hold meetings to which we would invite governors, local officials, private leadership, and let them decide whether or not they want to require us to continue to handle housing programs

just on a segregated central city basis or whether they want to approach it on a metropolitan basis i call this one the option process the uh give them the option because if they're going to do it just on a central city basement but i've got to decide whether we've got to stop putting money into some of these central cities because we're going to lose hundreds of millions of dollars if we keep it up but at any rate

I thought the significant thing was that they didn't hesitate, none of one of them.

They said, sure, we'd be glad to.

And they had designated the people.

Now, since then, I've talked to the governors of all five states.

We selected Boston, Detroit, Philadelphia, Wilmington, and St. Louis.

I've talked to all five governors.

All five governors welcomed the opportunity to work with us in structuring such meetings.

and indicated that, in their opinion, that problems cannot be resolved except on this area-wide basis.

And I think you'll find that the governors and others recognize this need for an area-wide approach in rural areas as well as urban areas.

I cite that as, well, that'll be my story.

I will, as everybody knows, let me say that tomorrow,

to present the case, let me get the views of the others.

I mean, we've got to give them a shot.

And I'd like to then have an opportunity to see where we go from here.

Good.

I mean, I am keenly aware, and also let me say that I know God.

I asked about how he did this, certainly.

You must have a lot of really dedicated people working with you.

Oh, I've got some good people.

I've got some able people.

I've got an able... Well, here's what...

Here's what we've put together on this.

And...

Yes, sir?

In the event you want to take a look at it, this gives you something right here.

And here's the three bottom of the floor.

And then back of that is right there.

But if you don't catch it, that's it.

Now the supporting material is off.

That's for you.

If you have a chance and want to look at it, why, that's it.

Let me just add one other thought, Mr. President, and that's this, and I started on this.

My experience is that in significant initiatives, you seldom get a majority to support the idea at the beginning.

Now, when I joined American Motors, for example, as assistant to the President,

The Ramber was already underdeveloped.

George Mason and Lee Moore, the chief engineer, really came up with the Ramber concept.

I didn't.

I sold it, but they had the concept.

When I joined the company, every officer of that company, except the president, came to me and said, can't just persuade Mason to kill the Ramber because it's going to kill the company, not save the company.

Now, when Jim Ross heard about the kind of cool reaction we had from that first meeting with some of the committee people, he said to me, well, don't give up.

Just remember, I talked to Dizzy once,

Disney told me that when he decided to develop a full-length cartoon, they all laughed at him.

They said, you're crazy.

And the animal pictures, they said, would be no good.

That Disneyland would be a flop.

Well, most of these things amount to everything.

After all, Mr. President, you didn't take a great big group up on the new economic policy decisions.

What I'd like to suggest is that if you think this has merit, that you identify a small group to work on it.

And if I may be bold enough to suggest that I think that Elliot Richardson...

and Volpe and the vice president really have convictions that are very much along this line.

A few of us like that, yeah, they'll be there.

But I think with a small group like that, we can perfect this, because after all, I'm not saying this is a finished product, but I think it's a good idea.

All right, we've got, I guess, the future in mind.

let me hit a couple of other things quick because i've i've already imposed on your time but uh when we develop it won't take you more than five months yeah

What I'm going to say is this.

I'll tell you a beautiful story, which fits in.

First of all, a digression about who he is.

When he was 87 years of age, I called him.

Elmer's father has made two great fortunes.

The first was Hoffman LaRoche, and then at 67 years of age, Warner Lambert was in trouble with a $20 million company.

They called him out of retirement.

He became chairman of the board of Warner Lambert.

and made the million dollar company.

We went out and called him, and he turned the key, and the next thing he said was, we all were still there.

Elmer also is quite a gallop, quite a guy, usually says, for having a little touch.

He can not drink any vodka.

He has a fantastic memory.

I was once asking Elmer when he was 75 or 60, I said, how thick do you remember things?

And, of course, he feels quite close to my family because he's had a very sad situation with his own family.

Two granddaughters, one married a heavy tennis player and another in this event.

He said, the way you get a teaching member, you've got to abuse it.

You must abuse it.

You must force yourself.

He said, when you make notes, when you do this or that or the other thing, he says, everybody does it.

It's all the young people.

They teach you in the school that you don't do this, that, don't do it.

But he said, I abuse my member.

I force myself.

This fellow, at 87 years of age, remembers everything else just by using that.

But he's also, not only in addition to taking a little touch, he's also, as a young wife...

but in a very discreet way.

I'm a girl.

I said, what about your age?

He said, how are you doing?

He said, I'm not going to change it.

He said, I like diversity.

I'm going to continue that.

But anyway, that made an interesting point about boards and directors.

All these guys, I'm the chairman of the board, built a billion dollar company on the 20 million dollar line.

And I got a time company, a real flop in the world, you know.

And a cosmetic, I mean, pharmaceutical company.

And he talked about boards and directors.

And he said, let me tell you what he was talking about.

He says, every decision I ever made was made

over the objections of every member of the Board of Directors.

Every good decision.

He said, the big ones had to be.

He said, because all of them are planning to stay.

All of them are trying.

He said, I listened to their advice, but I had to go over the big ones.

I had to make it.

It's an interesting point of view.

Every time the captain says something, the domestic counsel and the OSP tells me that, you know, well, you agree.

I do.

But I know, just as you do, that there are times when I've just got to say something.

I don't know that this will be one of those.

I mean, I'm not saying that you would want people looking at it.

That's right.

But I do want you to know that that's my approach.

I always remember what Wilmer said.

Don't just say, well, since these guys say this without the other, don't do it.

We've got to take a look, and it'll get that kind of a look.

I appreciate that very much, and I admire you for the way you make your decisions, because I think you're right.

Like, for example, we would never be trying to clarify if I said, I don't mean Bill.

No, no.

But it had to be done.

Sure.

Somebody had to break that impasse.

Well, I just wanted to be sure that you'd give this your personal attention, because I think it has that merit.

Now, just a couple of other things.

Number one, when we put together this equal opportunity on the housing message and we're considering it, John and John Mitchell and I discussed the possibility of bringing into being, as a means of easing the problems incident through this whole equal opportunity on the housing situation,

a national leadership committee of the type that was brought in to be in connection with the Equal Opportunity of Jobs.

The Plans for Progress was the first step, and that became the Alliance of Businessmen, which is still operating.

Now, as background here, Mr. President, Daley came to stop the marches over in Chicago by agreeing to bring together the leadership of Chicago.

to do something about discrimination in housing and they created the next the leadership council over there now headed by jack jacks who's uh chairman of inland steel pete peterson was a member of it until he came down here the leadership of that entire area has been working on the elimination of discrimination in housing ever since and the fact that the top leadership there is doing it has enabled them to do things that couldn't be done otherwise now

We discussed the possibility of the establishment of a national leadership council composed of representative leadership, basically business, but they'd have to include other groups in this instance because it's broader than just business.

And that their purpose would be not to create any publicity,

but to encourage leadership in local communities to establish local leadership councils and to give advice and counsel on national policy.

Now, I discussed this, and here's the outline I used, the desirability of such a council and the critical character of this problem, with Jim Roach.

just before Thanksgiving.

Well, and I wanted to get him before he... Yeah.

And I attended this meeting that the black leadership gave Roach down here about just before Thanksgiving.

He's thoroughly committed in this area.

He recognizes the seriousness of it.

I told him that I had not talked to you about this, but that

i would be interested in whether or not he might consider sharing such a group nationally with the understanding that the purpose is to get results not publicity but to bring together a leadership group who would be so respected that they could get the leadership in other communities to step up to doing something about this quietly and and he said he and he indicated to me he would not make a commitment to do other things without giving this consideration

Now, what I'd like to be able to do, now I've also brought into this picture, and I've had discussions with quite a number of business groups about this, and I won't go through that, but I've also brought into this picture Joe Cook, who until a few months ago was head of the Illinois Bell, who was the leader in the Establishment Council in Chicago for Daley and so on.

And he's giving us help in putting this together against the background of their experience.

And what I'd like to be able to do, just so we could nail Jim Roach down so he wouldn't make some other commitment before we can get a decision on his part, is to simply be able to call him and tell him that I've discussed this with you,

and that you would like to have him work with cook to put put the proposal into specific form with recommendations as to composition and membership and so on so that you can look at it whether you're deciding whether or not this is something you think ought to be done and before before you decide whether we should ask him to chair it but that and this law just will give him a chance to decide whether it's going to be structured in a way so he would want to chair it

But I don't want to lose him if this idea has merit.

His leadership council on a local basis ties into this business of getting other cities and counties surrounding a central city to accept their share of minority housing on a voluntary basis.

Is that right?

Well, on a voluntary basis, that's right.

Now, in Chicago, John, what they focused on up to this point

is overcoming some of the legal barriers to discrimination and establishing in the courts

the ability of individuals to get the damages and so on, and to make legal practice in this area a meaningful and rewarding thing so that private practice, private lawyers go into the field.

They focused in that area.

They would never get the federal judge.

Now they're beginning to reach out and to encourage the sort of thing that's happened here in the Washington, D.C. area, which is pattern on the Miami Valley situation, where Mr. President, this week,

The council of government here, composed of the counties in Washington, D.C., have agreed on the proportion of low- and moderate-income housing that each of the government units around here should take against the background of the employment and other considerations in their area.

Now, they would work quietly with leadership to undertake to get this sort of thing done.

Of course, it's a, as you know, sensitive question.

Absolutely.

On the other hand, if Roach could be approached in terms of putting his

find a clear mind to work on it.

I mean, don't sell it.

You know what I mean?

To see whether he thinks what you think, John, or do you think that's a weird thought?

He's a good head.

He's a cool guy.

He's a fine citizen.

He's in a prime of life.

I'll tell you one concern I had about this that didn't occur to me when you and I had talked was that we are coming into a question here.

That's right.

And we couldn't afford to have a runaway council.

That's right.

Oh!

No question about that.

I think we wanted to sit down with Roach, I don't know Cook, but really in all candor, saying this thing has got to be controlled.

No question about that.

As a matter of fact, as a matter of fact,

I think the probability is that it may take the time between now and after the election to get this thing structured properly.

That's a good time.

Let me suggest this, that I do believe that dividing in election year, well, our Democratic friends

are going to take whatever side of the issue is going to help, and that's the way it's done in politics.

And if they see this as a hot issue, you'll see some of the liberal Democrats.

Wow.

They have already.

Well, we know that in the world that the Indian Fund and the others have been laying back and serving us or waiting for this year.

And we're going to see all kinds of civil rights activity to embarrass us.

And they're going to come here.

There's no question about it.

Yeah, I think that's right.

Now, it may be a rosary.

a very constructive kind of a buffer.

If you could ask, Roger, could I ask this, rather than formalize it like that, and I say, talk candidly to him and say, look, not in terms of supporting him otherwise, but just say, for this amount of election year, we just simply should have hit the fan.

But you, as a private, on a private basis, take a hard-running situation to see whether you can make it to fly and then to come back to you in terms of that.

How does that sound, John?

John, you can say that you and I chatted about it, and I said it, and I was very frank in saying it.

This is a terribly sensitive, volatile, trial issue.

That's right.

And we just can't get into it.

We don't want to formalize it.

We don't want any stories on it.

We'd like for him to take a hard, cold look and talk to us before he goes further.

Okay.

That's fine.

I'll keep in touch.

All right.

Do you remember some of the problems you had up there?

Look, I think I've been through it about as much as anyone.

That's right.

Just two other quick comments.

At a recent cabinet meeting, you told us to work with the Public Interest Association on executive reorientation.

I did want to report to you that all six of these groups have indicated that they have no opposition to any aspect of the Department of Community Development.

They're in full support of it, and they'll get governors, mayors, and others to testify.

I just saw Holifield and Horton this afternoon.

They were upset about the butts announcement and so on, and the preservation of agriculture.

I think they were planning to use that as a trade-off to help get the... You know why we had to do that?

Oh, I know why we had to do that.

We had about as much chance to get it back.

That was the one price we had to pay.

Now, with respect to revenue sharing, we're in discussions with them, we're in discussions with the congressional leadership, and John, the thing I need to be clear on here is that we have flexibility in trying to work out something on urban community special revenue sharing that we might be tied down as narrowly as OMB is trying to tie us down.

We'll keep in touch.

I think that's .

The main thing is, I would say this, George, you know how the press .

Don't have the press write a story that the effect of A to D has gone off against the OMB.

I don't want to .

This is here.

No.

No, the reason I raise this is on the basis of a memorandum I have, and I think I sent you a copy when I just sent to them, we'd be tied down to the point where we'd have no hope.

I understand.

What I really think is that we can get the congressional leadership to settle for less than this public interest group.

Well, it is what we're not willing to do.

We're going to have to move together.

And I think that would be a surprise that the department is going to sell the store and they're going to be letting them take it and so on.

I think we can bring everybody along together.

And if you see the opening for a deal,

Let's set up a meeting, everybody in one room, let's talk about it and get an agreement like we're doing now.

Do you know about HR1?

We do not.

We call a group together here almost on a daily basis on conversation sessions.

We don't have a job.

Okay.

All right.

We'll do that.

In that connection, for example, we had a, we had a, these arms problems.

So in every kind of field, like the and others.

And the main thing is that, well, take in dealing with Wilbur Mills.

We had a situation where too many people were talking to .

George Shultz was talking with him, and said, Wilbur was playing his own games, and as a result, the whole thing got screwed up.

Now Wilbur's going to have a deal, but it's not good with those guys out there.

They'll take anything from any department to play their particular game, and if we can just start a present, say, look, I'll bring it up all I can.

I admire your dedication, your skill.

The first meaningful discussion we ever had was up in New York, right after the steel settlement, and we had some discussion about the economic situation.

My only basic desire is to do what I can for my country and for you in this very critical period in the nation's history.

And I've been giving this some thought to how I can contribute most to the country and to you in the next year as well as the next several years.

And at some time when you've got, whether in the cabinet or out of the cabinet,

and uh at some time uh the next six or eight weeks if you have as much time as we've had here this afternoon i'd like to sit down and discuss with you the alternatives that i i i face in my thinking yeah sure because um no no well it might be it might it might be in the next three or four months and that's why i wanted to uh would like to talk with you because

Really what I'm taking a hard look at is how I can make whatever contribution I'm in a position to make to my country and to you.

And I've formed some pretty, I've formed some convictions with respect to

deficiencies we have in our political system in this country that may be areas where a contribution could be made even beyond what I can make in the Cabinet.

I don't know.

I've been honored, and I'm not saying this because of frustration or anything else, but I'm saying it because

I'm concerned about the country.

I think you've got problems to deal with where getting at some of them involves public attitudes.

That's right.

That's what I mean.

You know, everybody's sitting on one of those.

We've got two years, which is good.

And the impression was, well, that I was kind of inviting you, that I was not indicating that I would like for you to stay.

Let us begin with the proposition that I didn't have any hand for your job.

I think you've done a hell of a job.

We all feel that.

And you handle some of these terribly sensitive things with great courage.

And I know with your bureaucracy, you must have taken help.

Now, let's start with that proposition.

The second proposition is that if,

consideration, you feel that there is something else that you can do or should do, we should talk about it.

I would say that there shouldn't be anything done that hates

Well, look, we've got a couple of months to get by.

I think it would be bad to have the impression that everybody would be leaving the cabin at this point.

Now, for your information, as you know, there's been a lot of speculation about Mitchell.

Mitchell will leave within a reasonable time.

He has to.

Sure, I know that.

I know that.

So there's Mitchell in the stands.

That's right.

Now...

In the case of Romney, the Harden thing, I should explain.

The Harden thing, despite the public suggestions that he was leaving as a goat because farm prices were down, I realize no Secretary of Agriculture can do anything about the farm problem, and you don't think anyone can do anything about it.

Harden's a wonderful man.

Harden had to leave for very personal reasons.

And if he's going to have, if he's going to have an opportunity, as I put it, I put it, we talked it over, we talked to Bill Rogers, who's very close to him for reasons you know, and I, we're talking to the family here, and I said, Cliff, I said, well, looking at your family situation, I'd have to agree that if you go through the election, and should we not win, you'd be gun-damaged goods.

and you wouldn't be able to do as well.

If you do well, at the present time, your bargaining position is a lot better.

And he had this clarity, what he thought was a good offer, and I hope that Rogers boosted up, because all these companies, they never pay a guy like that enough.

They're going to be in debt over the rest of their lives.

Your case is different.

They're totally different.

Fortunately, you are not a man.

You're a man, thank God, who has to make a man on that kind of basis.

But I just want it clearly understood that as far as my attitude is concerned,

We want you, I want you.

If, on the other hand, your judgment politically and otherwise indicates that another turn would be that, then I think we should talk about it.

But let's do it on that basis.

I appreciate that.

Yes, sir.

As far as I'm concerned, if what I have in mind makes sense, you're in a position to help me decide that better than anyone I know.

And I won't do anything without your permission.

and maybe I might decide that maybe you can't do it.

I'm going to do what you want me to do, but I would like to discuss this other... Let me suggest that we set it up that you come in after I return from China.

Good.

Right.

if you come in, just the two of us.

I'd like to do it very much on that basis.

Just the two of us, nobody else present.

Thank you.

I have talked on the cabinet, people now phoning two others about their plans.

I don't mean over the past couple of years.

and it will be done on a totally confidential basis.

Let's begin with the proposition of my confidence in you, Mr. President.

Thank you very much.

My confidence in you is unshaken, Mr. President.

And I expect to devote the rest of my life to public service.

I have no other... My confidence in Lenore is unshaken.

I would ask you on the phone, Chris, to hear what you said.

Well, I'll pass it on then.

Well, I think that was the courteous end of that election.

Yeah.

But I'll tell you, if what I have in mind won't help you, then I'm not going to do it.

What would you say?

Shall we just ask you some of these questions?

In order to try this tough, which is 17 to 15, no restrictions.

That's fine.

March, maybe, about the 10th of March.

That's fine.

That's where you set it up.

John?

It is the housing thing, as I understand it.

This is something that sort of says, yeah, it's sort of our initial growth and so forth.

So don't tell the guys to turn it down too quickly.

I

I mean, particularly on the amount of money that you spend the first three years.

We can screw around.

We won't get a little pregnant.

We can have an abortion.

Well, I don't think that's a dual right service.

No, sir.

They say, listen, once that I don't taste gets in the mouth of those senators.

I know.

It's quite easy to stop congressional.

Well, be that as it may, be that as it may, don't be too sure.

I like it.

Okay.

The goddamn thing is an adjective, you know.

I'm glad you could try and sell me a car.

Yeah.

I don't need a car.

I know.

But you know, I... Well, I hate to be a naysayer.

I don't need a naysayer.

He's got, he's just got a lot of problems.

Is there any way that you could do, do it in a less way, in a way that maybe I can start today to pull the weight off?

Let's do one set.

I don't want to hear the other side.

elephant that will grow into a $90 billion elephant, I'm afraid, before it gets all done.

See, Model City started this way.

We may need another different elephant.

The damn Model City started exactly this way.

It's a different thing.

But Model City's design set up so that there are 20 winners and 180 losers.

Well, that I don't want.

That's what that is.

And the competition will not work.

But what I'm doing is to say,

on a totally piloted basis.

Try one.

We're doing that.

We're doing it in Hartford, Connecticut right now.

We're doing it just crazy.

Well, Hartford's all right.

Don't forget that.

If you want to boss in

Hartford can't work anymore, and the company in Hartford has to sit on the property in Hartford to mortgage me.

I can't go out.

That's absolutely right.

You've got to go out.

Rylan?

Rylan yet?

No, not today.

I've been otherwise engaged.

No, thank you.

Why, did you wait or something?

No, no, no.

Just the usual work.

The West Coast, we always pick up between 6 and 7 or 8.

How's your State of the Union going on?

Well, you know, John, as you are aware, speechwriting, of course, is hard work.

I've read a memorandum of all of them.

We have just wonderful people on the research side, but there isn't any one of them who's organized, buttoned down,

speech record and sensitive and just put it in front of me at a quality that I know is what I need.

I think it's worth my effort for this.

I also have a Tuesday night.

and I'll let you in on that.

That's good.

The crew announcement is gonna be made tomorrow.

I'm gonna do it in a minute.

Laird's gonna take the questions.

It's 70,000 for the next three months, which brings it down to 69,000 by May 3rd.

This looks pretty good, doesn't it?

Yeah, very good.

On Tuesday night, I'm going to put on the table, publicly, the offer that we made on that and reveal that.

He's headed for Congress, I believe.

How does that sound to you?

I think it sounds great.

Does Rogers know about this yet?

No.

No, he's not.

I'll have to tell him.

And I will tell him within the next few days.

As I am on your streets in conclusion myself, and that should be done.

We've got to get off that.

I know about your long conversation with Rogers.

It's...

Something that I think can be papered over.

I've been talking to Henry.

Rose, I did wonder, did you get a copy for Ryland?

He went, good.

Good.

Tell Ryan, I will be, it'll be 6-10 to 6-15, so not before 6-10, probably 6-15, so he must take somebody else's time.

I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said,

They're both involved.

Yes.

Henry, perhaps more.

I agree.

He's the aggravator.

Henry, frankly, I was thinking if he had been dealing with a colony sitting in this chair, he would have been thrown out of the office in the first 30 minutes he was here because of his arrogance and his bad manners.

A lot of other people, too.

Yeah.

I think it would happen.

But I think, I don't think he would have survived with Rockefeller.

I don't think he would have survived.

He might have survived, but Rockefeller doesn't know as much.

I had John, too.

I mean, nobody will ever know, but I had spent, in all the very crises and the small issues,

with powers in this office, I'm holding his hand.

And frankly, there's just a, it's only because my mentor was recently here that I can do it.

But it's just unbelievable.

When people come in here, it'll be mine.

He comes in here and does the rest.

The Rockets have a hell of a lot of faults.

We all have a lot of faults.

If I manage that, you might know.

But he generally doesn't come in.

And he does, I must say, on the truth recalls and the other things, like on the Manchus series and the rest, to direct the last, he fought like a tiger against them and so forth.

And after I made the decision, I started to raise hell about it at a time that Henry was firm.

And of course, it hadn't been his decision, it was mine.

And he thought Henry had spent mine.

But generally speaking, you don't find rockers running in here.

And frankly, you don't find other traffic officers running in here for the purpose of having their egos in here.

Almost every day.

I've been talking to Nelson Rockwell about this.

As a matter of fact, Rockwell has called me constantly.

Yeah.

And he's going to resign.

Well, not only that, but the reason I mentioned it was Nelson told me that he had a complete break with Kissinger at one time.

It was a long time before he spoke to him.

Before they got back together again over the similar situation.

So you think Kennedy made it over again, of course?

I think it has to be.

I guess you believe it must be.

And, of course, Henry is flexing his muscles now more than he ever has before, but he's doing it over the telephone.

Henry does more over the telephone than he does face-to-face.

So I believe, Mr. President, in order to keep Bill in track, that he has got to

be told a little bit more about this.

He was complaining yesterday about the China trip.

Sure.

But then we sent Haig over there, and I told Henry to tell him, you know, send him around and the rest.

And Henry does, but maybe he doesn't tell him enough.

Well, apparently...

He thinks he says no enough.

No, not only that, but apparently Haig had agreed to see Rogers and so forth, and Henry just canceled it out, and off Haig went or something.

Well, before this, of course...

Henry, of course, shouldn't have done that.

Well, he's hardly heard about John B. Sullivan's State Department.

Now, Bill is wrong in one respect.

There's a damn need to do about this.

The other point, though, Bill is wrong in constantly defending his bureaucracy for their smacking at us.

His bureaucracy is disloyal, not to the country, but to the administration.

They are cutting all the time.

And Bill can't do a hell of a lot about it.

Bill ought to.

Bill has caused a lot to say, look, I know that.

Check this.

Who the hell else?

They sniped at Dulles.

He couldn't do anything about it.

They sniped at Russ.

They sniped at Edgerton.

But I'm loyal to the president.

That's what Bill ought to say, rather than say, all the guys over here admire the president.

Bullshit.

You know that?

Well, they don't.

Of course they don't.

Bill knows it, too.

He's apologizing, of course.

Well, where do we go?

I called and filled me in on your conversation, and I said, well, Christ, you're going to not talk to Henry tomorrow, are you?

Why don't you get back Friday?

Don't let Henry run roughshod.

He must not feel that he can order Bill and act in a way that he does.

And also, Henry's got to realize, John,

He has almost broken his pick in terms of coming into this office.

I wouldn't put it in terms of he's, but he's got the field.

i think now is now is the time to tell him because henry has turned around as i think we got across in the last conversation henry doesn't want to be pampered anymore and this was what

why he resented the York Hall, the Rockefeller, the Rockefeller Talk Show, et cetera, et cetera.

So now is the time to put it on the hard basis that, Henry, you're grown up, you're a big man.

This is what has to be done until after...

all this is over and past the election, and you've got to be big enough to live with it.

You know, his idea, for example, John, which I was sort of amazed to hear, during all this attack on the presidential system, the president never defended him.

In the name of Christ, what's he talking about?

Does he really think it would serve his interest level, or mine, for me to walk out to the press and say, Henry Kissinger didn't lie?

I had plenty of them.

My God, Henry didn't mention that to me because I know what I would have told him.

Now there's one problem about the .

I know that you are much closer to Henry's views than Bill is.

Frankly, if anything.

I may need more derogatory comments, but nevertheless, whatever the case might be, you are pro-Israeli for purely pragmatic political reasons.

That is correct.

Henry is pro-Israeli despite all of his protests to the contrary because he's a Jew.

He really is.

And it constantly crops up.

He says it's because of the foreign policy.

He says he's going to squeeze them later, and so forth.

But if he ever gets the crunch, he's going to squeeze them after the Senate elections, so he can't move now, and so forth and so on.

But basically, Henry is the reactioner.

The Jew I know who doesn't react that way.

Now, for that reason, Henry's judgment on this is not the best.

I know exactly what we want to do.

We want to screw the Russians.

That's why I'm for the Israelis, because the Russians, as their clients, in this case the weaker party, we have a stronger party.

So we want to keep the Israelis as a threat to them.

That's my reason.

Henry says it's his.

The only reason he says it's his is because I feed it to him all the time.

What we have to do here, from a political standpoint, is something else.

And here is the only way you can handle Rogers.

And I think you've got to do that without Caldwell being arrested.

I think you've got to say to him, now look here, Bill.

You don't want to get on the foreign policy part.

You're not going to look at the whether or not Israelis are the Arabs and the future of the Arab nations and so forth and so on and so on.

But from a pragmatic political standpoint, are keeping the Israelis

from going over the bracket this time could make a difference in winning or losing the election?

Why not?

Not because of their votes.

Because Bill will be using their own vote for a second.

Let's concede that.

Not because.

They are essential to finance the Democratic campaign, and they are essential in certain areas of the media.

and that we cannot afford it.

Now, Bill, what are we gonna do here about this?

And that, the thing to do, Francisco was right.

I mean, he carried out Henry Pace's business with the trade.

He did give them the goddamn planes, you know.

He does say that they've gotta negotiate.

Now, what would you have taught them with your trades?

They're smart enough, and they're deleterious enough.

They ought to go into these silly goddamn negotiations and just drag them out.

knowing that we are going to handle it in the name of the Soviet government.

Now, for the bill, I just feel that he's got to say, don't pressure the Jews so much, really so much, that you send them right into the arms of Moscow, and they don't like or trust you at this point.

I see a cold turkey.

Have you ever talked to him like that?

Yes, I've talked to him many numbers lately.

I was just going to say, Mr. President, I think this may have now been accomplished.

One of the discussions we had with Bob and Bill yesterday was in connection with you had to know what he was doing with the Israelis because it was involved in the Moscow trip and so forth.

Well, Bill called me up today and gave me a long dissertation upon

what they are doing with the Israelis.

And what he is saying, other than the fact they're giving them fans, he says, all we're trying to do is to get the Israelis to open up a small negotiation on the canal.

And then we're not going to talk to the Arabs until after we get the Israelis' consent.

Well, so this is just about, if you could tell him, please don't squeeze these words, don't give him any reason to leave us, and that it is a subject that we may well want to do in Moscow.

See?

It is, but that we, but that my view is, because God, I, look, you feel the same way, I'm sure, as I do about the Jews.

God, I. I know how I feel about them.

I know how I feel about them, but I want to tell them.

I don't pretend to, but I want to tell you that with Goldie Mayer telling these people to get aboard... Do you think she is?

Or is she telling them to both sides?

I don't know.

I think that the proof will come.

One of her big backers over here is Sam Rothberg.

I don't know if you know him or not.

He was...

Humphrey's financial chair.

He has a fundraiser that he set up for Humphrey at the end of this month in Florida.

And after that, he's going to announce that he is supporting Richard Nixon and is going to raise funds for him.

But I wanted to raise money for Humphrey in Florida.

That serves our interests.

Yeah, there's no problem with that.

That's what he's going ahead with.

Now, the main thing you've got to be sure of

And in fact, we're certainly friends at every opportunity.

It's a goddamn nightmare in every corner.

And one of the things that I have in mind in Moscow is to squeeze the Russians on the Arabs.

And we can do it.

You realize this.

You know what I would presume you might do?

Well, I hate to put you in the middle,

Well, Henry is an indispensable property.

Bill is a valuable property at this point.

And under the circumstances, we've got to have both.

That's right.

And Bill needs a little hand-holding now.

of just doing China.

And China.

And as it goes along, let him know a little bit about when you're going to Moscow or who you're going to see or something.

He's just got to feel that he's still the Secretary of State.

Sure.

Well, God damn it.

In fairness, you know, I've done everything I can from a social standpoint.

I did a delivery, you know, and Henry, you know, he affected that.

I had Bill and Edgar over for dinner tonight, and he raised holy hell with all of them.

I had Bill with John Conley for lunch, and he raised all about that.

And I wrote back to the plane with them.

Here's all that, but God, I've got to give Bill some prestige.

Well, he's the Secretary of State, and Henry's pure paranoia about it.

That's the problem, sir.

But I'm going to continue to do this.

Well, you're going to have to, because otherwise it'll get worse over there.

Yeah, gotcha.

Now, with regard to Moscow, of course not.

There's nothing on Moscow telling me.

We're just waiting there.

I don't think there's anything to talk about.

But on China, I think Haig is doing the men pretty good.

Did he meet with them today?

I just wanted, I'm just sitting here, I hope you have a good forthcoming conversation with Rogers and Billy Vinton on the Chinaman.

Yeah, we can give it to him, yeah.

Well, I think at a proper time, and that could be very soon, that he has to see it in the sense that, particularly on the basis that, as we've laid this framework already, that he knows that I have no trust, whatever, in Marshall Green.

But Rogers, we have known, has never leaked.

At an auditing like this, you may have to do the communique thing.

We've got to find a way to do it.

But as a matter of fact, the draft communique is not here at the present time.

There are sections that have been suggested, but it doesn't prove until I get there, right?

Well, then, if you went into that,

So what you told Rogers about both of those things.

What more does he want to know?

What does he feel?

He doesn't feel you're withholding something.

And we're not ready with the communication because I haven't approved any communication yet.

Yeah.

Well, do your best to be sure that he's building so that, you know, so that that can bridge the gap between Henry and Henry, so that Henry and he don't get in that hammering, and Henry will give him certain dire things, saying, well, he and the president have worked something out.

You know what I mean?

There's no reason to have that at all.

This car, the drivers trust you, and I hear the guy going to be the bridge, if you will.

Okay.

How are you feeling?

You guys just coming back in good shape?

Fine, fine.

Nothing else of importance today, I hope, except for the troubles in Laos and other places.

Pretty shaky.

Right, right.

Henry seemed to be in pretty good shape.

He said he was working on both the book and the other things.

Did you make your latest report?

What's he talking about now?

What's he cracking about?

Is that what wrestling is about, too?

Isn't that it?

I mean, you've just got to assume that's the question you're going to write and not get disturbed about it.

Yeah, that's my point.

And the same is true of the Times and the editorial papers and not on the news pages.

Yeah.

Hmm.

All right, well, they had a credibility thing again.

What's, how are we supposed to be?

Did he?

No, but did we?

Oh, get out!

Oh, okay, well.

See, he's not worried about it, he just can't do it.

Okay.

At 8 o'clock, he ascends.

Henry reads a call by Justin, by Catlin, the star of his credibility, and so forth and so on.

I heard all about it from Henry today.

Well, what did you tell him, John?

Probably 6.

Is he going to pee?

He is probably...

It doesn't bother me.

No, I mean, really, it bothers me.

Oh, it doesn't bother me.

No, I thought, well, Henry was claiming that it was another State Department leak.

And I said, for Christ's sake, Henry, go back and read it.

It doesn't say that it came from anybody.

It's just sources, and Scotty Reston has made this up to express an opinion, which they do all the time.

And he says Spade was feeding it all out.

Everything he says, Spade was feeding it out.

You know, the interesting thing is, Henry, I think, is really deep down disappointed that it turned out the leak of the Anderson Papers is from the Security Council.

I believe so.

He hasn't said a word about it.

Because he felt it did well.

somewhere is... Well, you know what happened?

I found out yesterday for the first time.

Rogers said that Henry called him up and gave him hell for a week at

Did he?

No, but did we?

I heard all about it from Henry today.

Well, what did you tell him, John?

Probably six.

Is he going to... Me?

He is probably... No.

Nothing about his name.

No, I mean, really, about Henry.

Oh, about Henry.

No, I thought, well, Henry was claiming that it was another State Department leak.

And I said, for Christ's sake, Henry, go back and read it.

It doesn't say that it came from anybody.

It's just sources, and Scotty Reston has made this up to express an opinion, which they do all the time.

The man says they were speeding it all up.

Oh, yeah.

Everything he says, they were speeding it up.

You know, the interesting thing is...

Henry, I think, is really deep down disappointed that it turned out that the leak of the Anderson papers is from the Security Council.

I believe so.

He hasn't said a word about it.

Because he felt that, well, somewhere is... Well, you know what happened.

I found out yesterday for the first time.

Roger said that Henry called him up and gave him help for a leak of the Anderson papers.

This was apparently before Henry knew where they actually came from.

And Bill doesn't know yet where they came from.

Henry's useless, of course, as well.

But his credibility.

One thing, of course, is you don't see him reviewing these discussions in Paris.

You heard credibility.

Well, it should help.

It should help Henry's credibility.

It shows that we're going out a lot of things.

We must fly.

This will build Henry up, because Henry is the one that's been involved instead of somebody from the State Department or under Rogers' aegis.

This should restore his egotism.

But if he starts using this to foster his nest vis-a-vis Rogers and the State Department, it'll break it all open again.

If you could have a pretty strong talk about it,

He wants to stay on and go down in the history books.

He can, so he's got to keep his mind on the big play.

India-Pakistan is a science show.

Don't you agree?

No question.

It's a side show.

These goddamn bastards, John, want to have something to pick at or something.

So it's that.

Tomorrow will be Laos.

That's a side show.

Henry should understand this, too.

If he ever gets any perspective.

Well, stop playing with the tuna boats, as you were saying.

John, with regard to your feeling about your own date, do you feel it should be sooner rather than later?

It's going to have to be, Mr. President, to get a hold of it.

Let me ask this.

What would you say to me and say if I were in first?

In other words, I think it should be a couple of weeks after you say it.

Well, it's way a little longer than that because Bob and I were talking...

And Bob and I were talking about it might be well to get it lost in the China thing.

In other words, have it done while I'm in China?

No, have it done while you're going to China.

Just before I leave?

Yeah.

How about the 15th of February?

That's a pretty good idea.

I spent two and a half hours with Maury today sorting him out and getting him straight.

He's in great shape now.

He'll go any time after he gets the Russians out of town, and they're getting out of town here next Monday, I think it is.

So you're going to have the dinner, and I guess that's the time when the announcement will come out.

I know the announcement.

Well, if that's desirable, he's got it prepared.

So that...

I think that's a good date because it will get lost in the peeping trip.

And as I was gonna say, hell, everybody's been talking about my going for a year anyway, so.

Now, with regard to your situation, though, you're convinced we ought to go with the Klein piece, then?

Yes, everybody of all spectrums on the Hill tell me, you know, this has been quite a newspaper piece, and...

In order not to express doubts from his sources.

Not doubts, well, he says problems.

Well, if that's the case, I think we ought to check them out to make sure.

But everybody that's... Well, I don't think you'll have to wait for Mr. Kleindienst, because they'll be holding hearings up there in the Erwin Committee.

When he comes back on this new CBS guy, whatever his name is, they'll be holding hearings on the Anderson Papers and they'll be holding hearings on wiretapping.

They'll be doing all of this.

So findings would be a very small part of it if they could get into the repression aspect of it.

We've got to look to those things.

Kennedy is going to try to hold hearings on Kent State and

And I've got Eastland turning him off, and we'll see a lot of declinings with just a small sideshow.

He's dangerous.

I mean, I believe they're going to look at it and consider it to be a pure political crap.

We should attack them to sell them to people.

Yes, very much so.

I thought when Jerry Leonard last year went after

those characters that were holding the hearings on the LEAA and really put it on the line that he got more press than they did when he just said it was a pure political harangue.

As far as Kleenex is concerned, Mr. President, he's got a good rapport with that department.

He knows what's going on over there.

You're talking about now 10 months or whatever it is.

It would be impossible for anybody else to get a hold of it.

Yeah, I wouldn't say Jim Eastman will take pretty good care of it up there.

He's very close to 20.

He likes it.

By the way, I got word today that Jim Eastman wants to see me, and he wants to come over on our side and support us actively, which is fascinating.

All right, fine.

It's clientage.

It's done.

Well, I don't see any other alternative.

All right, fine.

But we'll take it.

As you know, we've taken Peterson from the other job.

And Dick will check all of those major policy questions with me.

With regard to Hoover, it's where it was.

I think we've got a single truth.

Now we do.

I don't have any doubt.

Hoover isn't about to be down no hand.

Frankly, I know that Stephen Humphrey didn't take him on, or Muskie Humphrey, I guess it was.

They're going to have a hell of a time taking office, law and order, despite the fact that these are damaged goods.

Don't you think so?

They just won't do it, in my opinion, except if I'm a governor on the campuses or something like that.

And of course, he's an idiot anyway.

In that subject matter, we've been holding Pat Gray in reserve for that spot.

He could make a good deputy attorney general if you

if you look at it that way.

Otherwise, there's a spot in the Second Circuit Court of Appeals up there that the governor and Lowell Weicker want to appoint.

I think Pat would be a great influence in that job of moderation.

He's a pretty good administrator, you know.

What is really distorting the energy now is the fact that he's personally so concerned about the attacks on the enemy.

He's lashing out at everybody else.

That's correct.

And he's lashing out at his old enemy, Rogers, in the State Department.

Well, he's using... Now, as a matter of fact, yeah.

He's using a justification for his problem.

What the State Department is doing, it's a regular Jewish persecution complex.

That's right.

As a matter of fact, and they couldn't have more backing than I do.

And Christ takes backing.

He knows it.

He's Mr. Big.

And damn it, I feel sorry for Bill.

Bill, let me say it.

I feel sorry for him, but let's face it.

Bill basically doesn't have the profundity to deal with these problems as he would like to.

Do you agree?

I quite agree.

No question about it.

He has, he has, he's, he's damned, but he's personally going off his basic problems as sort of a superficial glibness, cleverness, and sometimes unintelligence.

And egotism.

Vanity beyond belief.

Actually, yeah.

Henry got thrust into this limelight too much.

Exactly.

We allowed him to get out at one point.

We should have.

Of course, John, every time he's been out, you can't imagine how many times we keep him down.

Christ, he wants to go to the day show.

He wants to go on Mark McCall's show.

He wants to go on the Northern Chronicle show.

I said, Henry, go.

I've been saying it for months.

I said, wait until after China.

I don't know whether, then maybe we might let him go on once.

But basically, keep hands after recognition.

Hands after it.

Do you agree?

No question about it.

And I'm sure he recognizes that's why all these starlets in Hollywood go out with him, because of his status in the record store.

And there won't be any starlets, and he'll lose half his friends in Georgetown.

Sure.

They won't want to be his sanction to have him to the parties after he's gained a win and so forth.

The other thing, too, is he's got to realize is that

is really, as far as the anti-Pakistan thing, it was inevitable.

First of all, it was a loser.

Not our fault.

We probably did all we could to make the least bad out of what had been a very bad situation.

But having done that,

If you were in Munich, if I were in the opposition, I'd take hell out of it, too.

And they found Henry there, out in the open, so they kicked his balls off.

Well, he wouldn't have got it if he hadn't opened his mouth on the plane coming back from... You mean, because of the Russians out there?

Actually, they stirred up a lot of... Sure.

And the opposition saw what he was saying.

That's true.

Uh...

You're Indian in Pakistan.

I don't know whether you have time to do it or not, but if you put this white paper concept into that state of the world or whatever you call that message, it might be a very good idea.

You tell it to me.

I talked to him on the phone.

I said, I want Indian practice land to be covered in the shade of the world.

And we believe it.

If you tell us that we're trying to get over this, he's told me that he has it.

He said, oh, we're going to have to follow a chapter.

We got a pretty good record on it.

Look, we did everything to prevent the war.

Once it started, we did everything we could to stop it.

It was a ten to one vote, in our favor, against India and Russia.

And people have forgotten that.

It's better than a world opinion.

And finally, now that the war is over, we're doing everything we can to find out the wills.

We're not anti-India, we're anti-war.

And it's a hell of a good case.

And as a result of this, we kept one nation with the support of a superpower from swallowing up one of its neighbors, which would have been a devastating situation.

But for Christ's sake, why do we worry so much about what this goddamn restaurant writes?

Well, get blind.

Jesus Christ.

Well, that's...

It's that stark character, you know, or quality that's diminished.

I don't worry about it.

All right, we're all set.

Yes, sir.

I might say that talking to Ken Rush, he's just delighted that they got along so well with Laird.

They're hitting it off well.

They got along well with Laird.

And let me tell you, Chris, I'd like to show you Henry's quote of the story.

I, after I saw Ken, I got the NSC guy out, and he was saying that I liked him, he was saying the name like that.

But I, they always said they didn't, they didn't even know how to talk to the law, so I thought, they're kind of partisan now about the level.

I said, well, I really want you here, I want you in Boston.

And I said, you know, Harry, Harry's got creative abilities.

He also needs a little balance with it and so forth and so on and so on.

And also, you've got to remember that, Blair, you've got to be totally loyal to him.

But there are circumstances when your first loyalty is going to be here.