Conversation 793-012

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Hi, Professor Jackson.

Well, how are you, Mr. Hillary?

Welcome.

Very glad to have you here.

I'm Mr. O'Hagan, Mr. President.

Well, I'll give it to you, sir.

Thank you.

All right, anyone?

I'm in this country because, to be honest with you, your wife has told me about marriage.

Well, the last time I ever seen her, I've heard about the places I've been to.

She showed me that little metal program, and she said it was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.

And I said, why shouldn't the Irish do it?

She said, I can't.

I can't.

I know, I know, I know.

Yes, yes.

All the ovations you received.

I'd love to have been there myself, but I'm over it.

Oh, we were, we were, we were.

We always like to, if you don't mind, they'd like to get a picture of this meeting.

Is that all right?

We put those guests in that chair.

Ambassadors, I see.

Ambassador Morris is here.

All right, come on.

Sit over here on this side.

Thank you.

Oh, I didn't catch it.

I'll leave it.

I'll tell you what, I know we've got a little problem with some problems with those airlines.

Next time we come to Arlington, we'll have the press line.

No.

Mr. Alton had a breakfast with us about a few years before you.

Oh, yeah.

The president said they were with Aaron.

Oh, yeah.

We were together for a while, he said.

The president.

Ain't the president in the U.S.A.?

Yes.

I got him.

Of course he's in the U.S.A.

Giant man.

I mean, the president can tell the witnesses that.

Yes, it's Marv, it's Marv, the head of the state, and not the head of government.

The head of the state, head of government, commander-in-chief of the head of the state.

We need somebody to do all three on the floor.

Well, we have, of course,

important problems we can talk about.

I know the stickiest one is the airline thing.

I haven't really, and I can tell you what we have done lately, but I guess we did avoid some sort of a confrontation on it recently.

I guess we postponed it.

Oh, actually, yes.

And now, I guess we have conversations.

I can't agree.

I think it's important that you indicate, if you're welcome to do this, that we discuss the matter, because if we do come here and not discuss it, your people will not appreciate that.

As far as what I can say, I cannot indicate what course the discussion will take, except that I

that I think you should know that I have studied the matter in case it's been presented to you.

There are many things that were said in my honor, including our ambassador, as well as your own.

I know there's a question as to what happens, whether or not the concession is made one way, whether or not the Irish go out and send them to the wild Chicago River.

And some of our people say, well, that can't happen.

What I would like to do is to examine the situation again.

I know we didn't pass this election.

See what kind of renunciation can be reached.

I know the case is often put in terms of the fact, well, this is a small country, but this means an enormous amount to our lives.

The question, the problem we have, if you can imagine, is that so many nations don't have their flight carriers that we move in one direction for a while.

And I say, now, why did it for this particular bus?

I suppose the precedent matter involved.

Now, on the other hand, I can only say that,

that you can be sure this is getting my personal attention, that my personal attention is the result of my asking for a report from our team of all the negotiations, and I just don't get it at least, because I'm not an expert.

Second, that I can't make any promises as far as I can, except that we are traveling, that we consider a fair, a fair deal for both sides.

That's about all we can say.

It's sort of a politician's generality that that's...

But at least the fact I'm looking into it is more than we do for the most part.

I think I was the president.

They all remember...

who now are retired from our government, who were in the first negotiation field of the big concession made by us to the American government and that this was appreciated in the government circles here at the time.

This was in 1944, when we wanted to get into Europe.

There were people in Europe who perhaps didn't want us to give it.

And I know that there were many men in the CAVs.

Some had access to Dublin.

He had done the negotiations and he came back and said, forget about it.

They hadn't had the real compensation from us to the American government.

On the other hand, they didn't forget it.

Tell me this.

How much does it mean to you?

What does it mean?

I mean, let's leave out the question.

How much does it mean to you?

The Shannon part of it is money.

In the Shannon part, it's government policy to develop the West of Ireland.

It's very badly on the part of the country.

You mean it's the development?

This will affect the development of the western part of Ireland.

This is the one non-official creation of government.

And we put it everywhere, whether it's above.

and then we can try to see how long it will take for an industrial theater.

There's still feelings of guilt.

There's feelings of guilt.

You've existed, though, but there's so many of you.

It's a sham.

It's in the Western world.

That's where everybody's always landed previously.

That's right.

And that's the problem.

But they're afraid that sham will become another gander.

So I took life the free way by asking the town.

As you know, Brother Nixon wrote the first letter to Mr. Nixon saying that we would stop recognizing sham.

I hope they don't stop, yes.

Which should really...

It's an emotional thing, John, to be so...

I get quite a bit of rustle against me because I'm trying to pretend I'm a business.

The fact is...

They have this fear present that in five years time, somebody will come and harm them.

Quite logically, the agent will probably expect them to be allowed to stop and wait in that place.

And then it will be done.

That's the government policy.

That's the difficulty.

How do we handle that?

The minister, right, they do.

The fact is, let's say that 75% of the North American passengers who fly the Atlantic to Ireland, that's the other river, the capital, have to do some cleaning flights.

75% voluntarily choose to deplane and land in Seattle, really because of the superb tourist facilities.

It's great.

That's it.

And the scenery in the west of Ireland is far superior, very frankly.

I've done it with a two-day town.

I'm not doing a European tour.

I've done it in Paris, etc.

People love to get off in Shannon to go to those castles they get to build in.

To Connemara, the west of the town.

It's all a game.

I don't know.

It must be that.

It's the same in the aviation people.

I don't know.

And he said, they're in Chicago already.

And what they're asking for is permission to route the Chicago flight through Boston and or New York.

I don't think that you stopped.

And it would make it.

It would economize their utilization of aircraft.

They're not presently counting on Chicago.

They've stopped in Montreal.

That's the second part of the problem, Mr. President.

If we don't have to, with no arms determined, no forces to allow access to Dublin, any compensation to the airline would not overcome the need for this to happen.

I see.

The main point is, maybe you understand it this way, and some of this is the fact of it,

You're concerned here, it's not the money you're going to get out of your pocket.

You're keeping your money going.

Your real concern is, frankly, they're following you around here.

They're going over channels.

You know, it is.

It's like procedure, but in a very different sense.

I was thinking, I was reading some history the other night about the tragedy of the relationship

There have been some others that weren't, frankly, on the British side.

He's made for them.

That's right.

But those people, that's right.

He has the legacy.

But when you stop to think, for the particular matter, I'm talking about the population of our, what has happened in the past.

What has happened in the past, all those people, we were the genders.

We were the genders.

We got to be here.

They helped our country.

We were the people that made the light, the sky, and so forth.

Now, this country, this country is a good country.

It's a beautiful country.

It is one.

I'm not speaking that growth by itself is good, but some growth is necessary, particularly when it's jobs.

And I had a real sort of personal feeling about it.

I wanted to grow.

I wanted to sit there.

As a matter of fact,

I also want to say that I'm delighted that you're going to move into the, you yourself have a responsibility to represent your community.

I think you've got to do that as an executive position or as a...

I have to leave the government.

You have to leave the government.

I have to leave my constituency.

I don't want to... Of course.

Yeah.

But you'll leave the government.

I have to go to Brussels.

One of the small countries to leave.

How is it going to affect you?

How is it going to affect you in America?

I think the first two years will be very difficult.

Because of the fact that the British...

They're rather big, so tied to you and all the rest, they have to tie to the rest, but that's not allowed.

We have very good education facilities.

We're basically good for attracting people.

You not only have good education facilities, but your greatest asset are that you have a hard-working, honest, decent people.

And a lot of these people, a lot of these countries, and I won't name which ones, have frankly lost their character.

They've lost their guts.

They've lost their drive.

And you haven't yet.

We haven't yet.

If you can keep that, no matter how poor a country that's got its people, that's got some character, some drive, some ambition, it's going to make it.

But broaden out the competition.

Get in there.

We have protection to stop this.

We don't have to take it all away.

It will help me.

Once we go on, of course, it's coming.

We'll have to meet straight competition.

I think it will be good for us.

But the first company I learned to fund, I didn't believe it was going to happen.

And after that...

When is the...

It's something you can choose instead.

I mean, you have to have one.

Yes.

I mean, 74.

74.

Well, if I were in Israel, I'd have it next month.

Get it done.

You get it done.

Before he gets the heat of the market.

Before he gets the market.

Very good advice.

Because you're going to have a rough situation there.

You're going to have uncertainty.

Uncertainty isn't going to be as rough as it will be uncertain.

But if he could have it, I should be advising him.

We don't have that option here.

Let me say this.

If he gets it, he should strike before people become uncertain and get it done.

And he's got his family.

He will often go over to him.

On the problem of Northern Ireland, did you imagine an enormous interest in this country?

Certainly there's an emotional interest, basically.

Well, it is because of the suffering.

I mean, Ireland is a country that suffers so much.

I mean, I think of all the countries I think of in Europe, the only country that suffers from it in Ireland is Poland.

I mean, Poland has both been eaten alive so often.

But the Irish suffer.

They suffer.

I mean, they suffer because they have fought out of this humanity.

And they've suffered now because of this terrible conflict that's developing.

The Irish isn't .

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

On the other hand, we, I, on my part, as a government, people said, well, why don't we get into it for us?

Believe me, I thought that getting in would help.

It wouldn't.

On the other hand, I've analyzed it carefully,

I didn't log in something in from the outside.

But you have people of good will attempting to work it out.

We're not helping.

We just simply stir up the folks that we disappointed.

That's why we haven't.

But our concern is there.

We're concerned about the problem.

We know that you abhor violence on your side as much

They're all in control, they're extremists.

Yeah, that's what I know.

And I imagine that Lench is taking heat, because a lot of people in the South, you've got extreme people there, say, why don't you sign with them?

Right.

We've let them down, because one population is back towards the British, they're British now, and the other population, we let them down, because they're our own.

Sure.

However, he's taken the only course.

You think he's right?

How is the public opinion on that?

The public opinion, we think that it is.

It is the way we've done with the vice-chancellors.

Who is the real opposition member?

Who is the...

The opposition is a very strong presence.

I think it's only when people see it as the only thing to do with this...

They get around the country a lot and they travel a lot.

During the by-election conference, I can't promise you he signs down.

Good, good to hear.

They love him as a man.

Sure.

He's got a strong, you know, in the final analysis they see him as a man of character.

He's strong, he's got character.

Well, we want to, not that they're hurting, but we would like to, I mean, as an individual that is covered, and we want to do everything we can to help in this government and the people there, because there are bonds of affection, really, that we have here.

And not just on St. Patrick's Day, and not just on the day that they've given the award, you know, to our missionaries and so on, but you know, it's more than that.

No, we didn't.

Mine is based more on the study of Irish history.

I mean, I observe the history about the Spanish people a lot.

And I see the tragedies of peoples.

You're taking it.

Let's look at another one.

Where the whole world is still divided in Spain.

I mean, that terrible, terrible civil war.

It was a horrible thing to happen to the Spanish.

The Spanish people are good people.

wonderful people who are indecent and good and the rest, but they're brutal as the devil when they get fighting each other.

Yeah, and that civil war is a terrible thing.

It divided the world and so forth.

Now Frank goes in and so then they sort of put the whole, they put all, and because he's there, they tend to put all the Spanish people out in outer space or purgatory.

But on the way to hell, they have, now that's wrong.

Spanish people are good people, right?

And the thing we have to do is to,

is to not hold the people of this generation, over 40 years after the war is over, responsible for what happened in the end of it.

Right?

You feel the same way about Japan.

You feel the same way about Germany.

Our far more enemies.

I'm sure there were enemies.

But 60% of all the people living in Japan and Germany, they were born since World War II.

So you're going to blame them for what happened in World War II.

That's it.

Right.

Sure.

But coming back to Ireland, the history of Ireland, of course, we know better than most.

We know better than most for a reason.

Because obviously, British history is much studied in this country.

And when you think British governments, British prime ministers have gone up and down because of the Irish.

You look at the great debates between Gladstone and Israel.

More often than not, their governments fell because of the accuracy question.

And neither one of them should have been asked that question.

Neither one.

Because they were great men.

There were questions to send in to us.

They never did.

Well, you know, you've got to say this.

Even though he had this terrible problem, Sir Randolph Churchill, he did very well.

Yeah, he could have.

Didn't he?

We sometimes hold things from him.

Right.

And the rather written biography, I don't know if it's white, they wrote it all.

I had to get it later.

I had to get it from Jerome, so they just got it.

And Jenny, if you read the biography, the first is a great book to read.

But her story is about Ireland and when they were there, they did a very good thing.

What about the relations between the peoples of the two countries?

It's a strange thing.

I didn't realize I got there.

How many British tourists come with good relations?

Are all the farm masters in Los Angeles?

When we have problems with the British, you know, especially when you're intervening, sir, or what we, the most I've ever asked for was that quietly, you know, what would you say to the British, why don't you talk to them?

They have come a lot around.

Public intervention.

No great nation can.

Some people, for example, are saying now that they're in argues with the Soviets that we should condition any further agreements with the Soviets, and they're doing something about it, except for business for Jews.

No, no.

It's very concise.

But what do you mean?

The Soviets have never done anything like that.

They just walked out.

Do they let them weigh themselves?

No.

Do they let you create themselves?

No.

They don't let anybody out.

The moment that the American government says, look here, unless you do this or that, we're not going to make it.

If they come with you, they have to sit with you.

You don't need to.

You don't have to have to sit with them.

So what you do is to require them.

But this is what we ask.

That's what we want to do.

Right.

We honestly don't believe that they should.

They're going better now, but they're on a hand.

They're doing the wrong thing.

When they do it right, it gets too late.

They're going in the right direction now.

If their friends would say so, we think the other way is better for some of them.

I see.

They can't accept it.

Your country wouldn't accept dictation.

Right.

They are people who respect, they are people who respect the United States, the British, the actual self-consciousness of what's happening now.

They're great people.

They stand still and have the United States say, look, you want to do this or that about that?

And they say, well, what are you going to do about your black promise?

Or what are you going to do about that?

About the Burundis?

Oh, wait a minute.

That's no instance.

And I tell it publicly that I came to the states this February to ask the friends of the refugees if they would say that they would give my father to a morass.

I don't get anything.

We'll have to turn it around.

They have to turn it around, but they're taking very different decisions.

And this man Whitehall seems to be very reasonable.

Yeah, I understand he is.

Well, we'll keep in touch with him, let me say this.

If anybody asks us about it, we'll deny it.

I would actually deny it.

We'll say yes, we're very interested in it.

But we believe that this is a matter that has to be settled.

We're very interested in the subject.

But you will know that it is not a subject that we should be ignoring when we talk to the British ministers.

And they would understand.

Oh, because they don't know that you can't take it.

Well, they've got to know.

Well, we always have to give all the ancient people who come here a little memento.

It's not much, but the jeweler here in the United States put the American seal off the flag there, the President's flag, and engraved it in a copy.

So if you have your American copies, it's just that it's not personal.

The name's on the box.

I didn't realize the president had been in the Irish history as well.

I know it, because I'm a British, I should read something in Irish instead of doing that thing.

How are you going to do it, Mr. President?

I'll listen, and this would be absolutely right.

The main problem, one of the things the Russians have very much over us, I talked to a Russian, I thought this was a terrible one, and this evening, or apparently one night, we were out in the Dachshund, a very, very, I don't know, it was a spirited debate, conversation.

They talk to me hard.

We had two of them.

We had a nice day.

We're going to say .

They require, for all their years, a month's vacation before summer and two weeks in the winter summer.

So they take six weeks off.

Bam!

They don't allow anything to happen in that period.

And they go to the Black Sea in the summer.

I guess the summer is when they go back.

Now, the Chinese have the same system.

Zhou Enlai, who's had so much responsibility, has just worked himself to death.

He doesn't do it.

But here in this country, we have now gotten to the position where Congress is in fact virtually year-round.

The White House, I go to places.

I go to California.

I go to Florida.

It's a good thing to move, to move away from the problems, totally away, and the mind is refreshed and comes back.

And I always read things.

I've never read detective stories because I like them, but I don't read them.

But I find that the best reading is history and biography because to me that's the best detective story of all.

Even though you know it's going to come out.

But anyway, this really was not as distinguished a class.

recall, did not have gladstones, nor his physical vigor.

He had far more sophistication and skill, it seemed.

But an Israeli wearing some of them during the parliamentary sessions.

And that's what they would have around the 1st of June and the 1st of July.

And then from then until the middle of winter, he would go to a few of them.

and then move around the great English country.

For one month, he would do nothing.

Absolutely nothing.

He wouldn't really do anything.

And then finally, his mind would become charged up again.

He would be ready to go.

He would start writing letters.

He would call meetings in France.

And what is needed among modern leaders of the world?

It's true of small countries.

It's true of big countries.

It's become a fetish that you've got to work all the time for the group you're doing the job.

The best thing that most leaders should do is to take some long vacations.

And another reason I would take vacations is to read.

Girl, I'm reading a few books.

And maybe not do a darn thing.

Not to go out and just, you know, some people say, I've had a long vacation, so I can play golf or swim.

Well, that's fine, too.

They like that sort of thing.

And do a little of that, too.

But people need to walk in the woods or on the beach.

And maybe then a little, then you come back to the problem that's very important.

We don't do that today.

He probably covers this in a very interesting way in his analysis of religious and political leaders through the centuries.

And he has a marvelous chapter, which is included in his major work, which he also publishes.

about how leaders, through the years, have a process of retreat and return.

That is, the word retreat is not correct, but that's what he means.

And then he goes very back to Moses, for example, who was a deliverance.

And then it was true, for example, of the Buddha.

It was true of...

It was true, certainly, as you get up to modern times.

You had Churchill in the wilderness for a number of years.

You had de Gaulle out there, not building an iron dam, but vegetating for a number of years.

And then he came back Adenauer, the mayor of a skinny little city in Germany, until he came back to leadership and the rest.

Whether that will ever happen in this country is to the same extent.

Nobody knows.

But what I am sure of is that it is probably better for a man

who was in public life, even though he may not have given the time, to either follow therapy or, by the people's command, don't even go out and let them come back.

Well, something happens.

Provided you use the time, though.

Provided you just don't get out and say, I don't know, I've got to work, I've got to work back there.

But you couldn't do more, right?

You, anybody that went through the age of becoming a medical doctor,

or even agony of becoming a lawyer, and that was how the mind, particularly when you're young, can see much of the work you're interested in.

But as you get older, you've got to have some time, and with all that paperwork and rest, you step aside from it.

And the way I accomplish it to an extent is I do it every single night, more than most, perhaps.

Not in my opinion, thank you.

But the other thing I do is that whenever I have an important speech, I go away.

I take three or four days, and I do it myself.

And it may not be as good as the speech I prepared, but it's the only way that I can get the perspective.

And I think that we need more of that work.

We do too many things in the spur of the moment.

We're so busy doing things, so we do damn little things.

Well, just to say here that

We wish you well.

More here is what we call part of our Irish Matthews.

I'd like to say one more thing.

I'm Irish.

I have a very good estate with my husband and all of our friends there.

John, get to work now.

I'm bringing it here.

I'll wait to see you at my fellow's house.

Another member came after you.

Thank you very much.

sure why don't we get yeah all right

I have a lot of children.

I understand you.

I don't recommend it.

No, no, no.

Only read the one chapter.

I'll take it.

I'll get to that chapter and send it to you if you'd like to do that.

That would be my honor.

Just a quick one.

What did you do in the program last time?

Earth flushing.

I missed that.

I've been there.

Do it in Florida.

It's around Austin.

It's a great program.

We're going to pass this in on a meeting like this this morning.

I know that you went back to the pandemic and all of the work that you did.

Today, you're going to have to go to the church.

You're going to have to go to the church.

I'm going to have to do it later

It's the only, the crescent, I guess, that is the problem.

There's a building wall.

I'm trying to get this whole building out.

That's what happened to me.

I don't know about you, but do you want to know?

Yes.

I didn't make any promises.

But I look at it again.

But I'm mainly interested in what's going to happen to that part of Ireland.

And we've had a lot of people look at it.

Yeah.

Well, you never get them to write it.

No, they have to write it.

No, I mean, they never write the style.

The interesting thing about the press conference is always the style.

We never get them to write it.

It's not on the radio.

So they heard it.

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

And then they think, oh, they're going to use that radio.

Yeah.

And I thought, well, I got to stand on it.

Yeah.

It's, you know, when they talk, they go, I'm putting that on television.

You cannot put it on this camera on television.

Or the reason that it loses its character.

You realize that.

People say, oh, that's bad TV.

They're on TV.

They're different.

They're all, you know, they get it.

You know, those bad, you know, I don't, I don't promote any cameras, but they do.

Well, okay.

Okay, thank you so much.