Conversation 799-009

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Come on, Mr. Bessie.

What are you about to do?

Yeah, I'm going to be gone.

Yeah.

You've got a problem.

You've got a long preparation.

Well, I was working kind of late last night.

Thank you.

If you can call me sometime today, it's fine.

I'll hurry.

I was looking last night to get the military to find out if I had got that letter.

He had not figured out.

I don't know about that, too, but he has found out 473 aircraft have been hit in the next 10 days.

And he never could find any

And over some of the turns with the...

Yes.

We've used him before.

And he says that's as close to capitulation as the other side can get.

I just had breakfast with Alex Johnson.

He said, of course, if you have to pay a terrific price and call this government, now, sir, I said, well, what if we could keep two men?

He said, don't be ridiculous, it can't happen.

I said, what?

I'm introspective, too.

We could get an agreement that the GBN remains in control of its area.

We can't do that.

We'd rather think of what less we can get if we can deliver it.

Anybody else that you've got any suggestions?

Of course, you can't discuss it.

There's nobody who can read it.

I'm going to put it on the plug and sign it.

Except our own, because we can't talk about it.

That's right.

On the political side, I'm 100% confident.

That's one bad word.

I can kill that.

Black or American.

I can kill that.

The one thing that may happen, Mr. President, the fact that I would have to say it's a problem, is that I have to take the whole circuit again next week.

That is to say that I'd come back from Saigon on Saturday.

And not go to... Not go to Hanoi.

Right.

Then go over to Europe again on Tuesday.

Right.

Sitting each month, we might say, go to Saigon Thursday.

In other words, you would come from Saigon, not to Paris, but here.

I'd come here.

Go over to Paris again, and then be in Hanoi the following Saturday.

And then you denounce it, or choose to denounce it on 3032.

The dates are wrong.

The letter is a little better, because it's less red.

I think politically it doesn't make any difference.

Well, I would—the more I— The more you think of it, I don't think we ought to rush it.

I'm inclined to think that you could— I also want you to know that you have total—

Flexibility with regard to the meeting with Chu.

I'll do it.

I won't do it.

Even now, anytime, if that's the price.

I mean, the main thing is to make the deal.

We can make the deal, and then we can do it on the personal side.

But Chu may need it.

Assuming I can sell it to him.

It's a big dose for him to talk to me, and two days later I go to Hanoi.

If he knows it's coming, if he can posture himself for a week, I'd come back, consult with him again, go off.

It will start leaking then, but, Mr. President, I don't really think it makes a difference.

Nobody believes in anything more than you just said.

Our chances would be...

If we leave both ways, we'll get those people's identity because the press will go up the wall.

That's what I think.

Nobody will believe it until we've done it.

Nobody's going to believe it until we say it.

That's right.

Your theory is right there.

Nobody believes it.

That's why I haven't been quite as excited about the leaks over here or anything else.

Nobody ever believes it until we say it.

That's right.

And the American public, when you go on television, that's the end of the world.

They can have it in the New York Times.

They can have the text of the agreement in the New York Times.

It won't mean anything until you go and tell everyone.

And... On the cue, then.

Very good.

Let's do it.

Well, if I have that latitude of telling him that, if he'd like to talk to me personally with you, I don't know why.

But the deal's got to be made.

If he wants you to go to seal the deal.

It would actually be...

I would go to the midway, though.

That's what it is.

But the deal must be made and that each of us would fly back, and I would then announce from the west coast, make the announcement from there, and he would fly back and make his from there.

That could be possibly a way to do it.

That could be a very good way of doing it.

Of course, first I've got to settle with that.

We still have a lot of...

I know.

And that may go today, tomorrow, right?

I don't think so.

But the Russians came in.

That issue of the prisoners is... Well, if you think that you can take a bunch of bastards out of jail, let it go tomorrow.

We can't take it out, I think.

But we'll have to see if we can.

If he was not, he would claim a terrific victory and clinch the deal.

That's what he'd do if he were very smart.

He would claim a victory and clinch the deal.

We have saved him.

We have saved South Vietnam, and now I'm glad to talk for reconciliation and peace with the Venetians.

Sure.

That would be the smart thing to do.

You've got the line vector.

All the dealers, every, both sides have got a line vector.

They all have a line vector, too.

But you could— I would be—I thought about this.

Don't mention this to anybody.

Call them or anybody, because I don't want anybody to worry.

This is more important than any campaign could possibly do.

But actually, if you went to Midway, you should go alone.

You shouldn't take a lot of cabinet with you like last time.

No, no, no.

I don't think we take rogers this time.

My recommendation would be to do it you and me.

Well, two should say he only wants to come along.

And we just need to be alone.

And that's going to be tough.

Roger's going to have to do that.

That's a possibility.

We could do that next week.

So there are a lot of possibilities.

The way it would be is if you go see two after your meeting tomorrow.

You could say, all right, I'm impressive.

We'll meet.

But understand, under no circumstances, unless it is an absolute science deal in blood, I will not read it unless you do agree.

See?

You understand?

I can't go there selling that reading.

You're out of the question.

Out of the question.

Now look, you ought to take this deal.

You damn well ought to, because you put it to the best of me, I think, the best analysis that I've heard in two sentences, like you said.

We can help him win his war, but we cannot win our war.

So there it is.

And if we can't even conclude that we can help him win his war, then we can certainly improve the situation.

We can help him win his war, but we cannot.

We just have no certainty whatever, winning our war, unless they are so vindicated.

But you never know about the people who got damaged in all the way, the Germans.

Hell, the Japanese would be still fighting here throughout the monomaniac, and the Germans

Well, of course, in Malaysia they offered a ceasefire.

It was rejected, and a year later they came.

So it's not inconceivable that at this time next year, maybe it's— No way, Mr. Bailey.

Thompson is totally, totally, totally customary that you could have him drop an embarrassing

I just think he's a wonderful guy.

He's very good.

He's not here.

Well, he got off many nations.

The main thing is that when it moves, it's great effort.

It's like a great football game or a great chess match or

a great political campaign.

The main thing is you give it all you've got.

All you've got.

And the effort is what matters.

The effort is, sure, the winning or losing.

People look better in history than those who do.

But in the end, we've got to make one way or the other.

If we don't even make it this time, then we'll just go the other road and get through the election.

Bomb the bastards.

Mr. President, if we don't make it this time, they'll settle right after the election.

Then we'll ram it down their throats.

Then we'll just ram it down Jude's throat after the election.

We don't give a damn.

And in our case, we made the ram it down their throat, too.

But if he's got that stupid second shoe to force us into ramming it down his throat, no.

I would say, if he highly improbably meant that he said scram and go on to Illinois, I ought to push on.

I think that there's something to be said.

You can see that it's a great idea.

I don't understand.

I think that it appears to be a little too... No, I think there's something to be said to talk to him so that he makes the deal and then comes back.

You come back and talk to me.

And I think too,

Morality, basically, am I standing up again?

It occurred to me last night early.

He may not want to leave, for him to leave Vietnam for two days.

That's why I think it was not much of a problem.

Well, it's eight hours still.

All right, fine.

Afraid to be a coup.

Yeah.

And he may not want to have it look as if it were.

But I'll present it to him.

So we have two options.

But you can say they will go there or after the election, Mr. President.

He would like to receive you in his home in the western White House in San Francisco.

So in any event, I could come back, say, Saturday from Saigon before we do.

Right.

And either you go and meet him at Midway.

Right.

You and I.

Or, if he doesn't want that, we'll go on the other route.

I'll go on the same track again.

Harris, Saigon.

We'll go to Midway.

Then you go.

You would wish on from there.

I don't know.

Well, I'd have to go with him.

I'd like to leave from Saigon.

I don't know.

It may be too strong medicine for...

When you go with him, go back to Saigon, and then, you know, you don't fly in the same plane.

He goes back.

You go back.

Your meeting with Q may be too strong.

I know what you're talking about.

But if it meets...

I'll offer it to Q.

This is something that... You just say it.

and they could just tell that aren't Vietnamese.

Now there's one thing the Chinese have learned and the Russians have learned about this man.

He's tough, but he keeps his word.

And also you can tell that Bar-I-Ga is concerned about death, suffering, widows, orphans, destruction of men, and there'll be no men in this large country in these few years.

But you must not test him.

That's the way it's going to be.

The advantage of going to Hanoi at some point, either this or next weekend.

Next weekend, all things together, I would slightly prefer this game plan too now.

Because it gives everybody a little more chance to get set.

On the other hand, if Hugh is enthusiastic, I think I ought to go now and not give him a chance to change his mind.

But it's highly improbable.

On the other hand, Abrams is satisfied with the military side.

I called Abrams last night.

I said, hey, I know you're a lawyer.

I know you'll do what the president asks you.

Is he around now?

Yes.

No, he's here today.

He's leaving tonight.

OK. And I said, now, you tell me, do you really think we can afford this?

You commanded.

A lot of people were.

It would be useful if I could ask you to come over for a minute now.

If you want it, I'm sure.

And order it.

Then you'll want to bring a conveyor, but that's fine.

That's fine.

I'll just bring the water, too.

Oh, no.

No.

Wait a minute.

I'll just wait.

I'm sorry.

Yeah.

I'll cover it.

Thank you very much.

Well, I just .

He's leaving tonight, but I don't want to see him without you.

I don't mean to say it, but there's something to be said that he .

I should be on the plan by about 11, but it doesn't .

He gets off his ass and gets over here.

I'm not going to spend any time on it.

But you ask the man what he said.

He says he thinks if he ought to do it, he'll put them in other political conditions.

Now you're going to have Hayes, Betty, or the whole department.

That's the defense.

Abrams is a better man for this group of sentiment than Haig, because Haig is just an extension of me.

No, I don't want any of that.

Abrams is considered to be too strange.

I think he could maybe show any of the men out there that are better than him.

Well, if you're gone, I suppose I can get him into Haig.

You can get him into Haig.

That's right.

You've got a lot to be said about that, too.

I think that's an idea.

I might do that.

With Larry, I forget Larry.

He'll trick around and raise hell.

Larry would be good on this.

He's so, he's so, he's such a, he's my guy.

Well, I couldn't be more

But I'm more relaxed about the whole thing.

It's going to be a decision that's made to go.

If it doesn't go, fine.

If it does go, it's a great effort.

Either way.

The way I'll play it with the North Vietnamese, as the president tomorrow, is to tell them I'm definitely coming Saturday while they're going through the document.

Yeah.

What's that?

In order to use that as a blackmail, then when it's done, I'll tell them there's three possibilities.

One, so I can't turn it down completely.

Then we have to come back to Paris and talk to me how we proceed.

Second, Saigon accepts it with a few reservations.

Then we have to go on what you and I call Room 2.

Right.

Saigon accepts it completely.

In that case, our push-ons are broken.

That conditions them to make us go to Room 2 from Saigon.

All things considered,

The best possibility would be to either my going on the journey again or with you meeting Hugh.

The disadvantage of you meeting Hugh is he'll input you in anyway.

But I'll leave it up to Hugh, whatever he thinks about going to England.

We know he's just going to have Preston standing there with him and also

Some people here say, well, we're probably going to pick her up some other way.

She doesn't make it.

If she gets peace, we got it.

You know what I mean?

So either way, we'll... Hello?

Hello?

That's Henry Kissinger.

I'm here with the president and he was wondering whether you'd be able to drop over for a few minutes.

Of course.

Well, that is probably not feasible.

Right.

Well, he'll catch you this afternoon.

I'm going off, but Hayes will set it up then.

All right.

He just wanted to ask you the same question I asked you yesterday afternoon.

And hear it from you himself.

Good.

Well, I look forward to seeing you in Saigon, and the President will see you in Saigon.

Good.

What else?

I used to lay in the room with you and say, now look here, I expect you to sell me.

Good, good, good.

That takes the two of you for a second.

I have a question.

We were in the suit on a week of panels, and they will not take Perry to go.

No.

They won't take the Vice President, and...

Well, I'm not so sure that we were just talking about something else.

We have another problem, which is that we've moved this all the time, which means we have, they were banking on that as our news story today, which we don't have.

So we have no news story, and we're giving the news, the network news lead to this panel, because I'm writing stuff down on this crap.

And the way to override it is for you to go over there.

Yeah, I know.

That's what you always want me to do.

No, it's just what we always write and think.

Well, I mean, I know that you've come down to this, but for me to go there at this point is just, well, that's the part I can override.

Carol Hanson, the president, last night gave a superb political all-out pitch for you on television.

They, at the session last night,

They talked about the Cora Weiss and Dellinger bringing the prisoners back, and they were booed.

And they hit the point that we don't approve of this, and everybody cheered.

They couldn't take Henry now before he takes off.

Yeah, but that won't make news.

You're kidding.

In the sense that it would solve the problem with the League of Families.

It won't solve the problem with the... Well, of course, no one else is taking over.

That's right.

I'll be glad to drop over for 15 minutes.

I have a way to be important, and tomorrow you're going to tell them I stuck there.

I have a way to be important.

The problem is the brain shouldn't use me to knock on a computer at this point.

I just think that's just play.

Well, you shouldn't if it isn't the right thing to do otherwise.

The question is whether it might not be the right thing to do otherwise.

McGovern's turned him down.

He isn't going to appear at all.

They're with us and it's any problem.

I just want to say we're still working on the damage.

Now you haven't had any assholes over here, you can write that.

No, not one of them.

They're all for amnesty.

They're all for Christ.

I think if you gave a motion of three minutes out there inspiring us that the other one

Bob, maybe it's not the right way to do it.

If it is, then we shouldn't do it.

It just, that's, that's... Well, Bob, you've gone to those poor women time and time again and said, I'm going to do my best.

I've talked with them here.

I'm not going to go out there and say, here's these three assholes, but come back.

No, except they're standing with you in spite of that.

And because of what you are doing.

Thank you.

Anything I say or interpret is giving them hope.

That we're making progress.

That's what Captain U.C.

Bobbitt is saying, I think.

I personally think that there's something that you said, despite the fact that...

Okay.

I'll be glad to go.

I could have a little bit— Well, it probably should, just so they can't say—I mean, the press can't say— I know the desire can't be, though, because it'll be a bigger story.

But don't underestimate the fact that Henry Kissinger will be on television tonight if he goes.

That would mean to make a public appearance today, too.

That's right.

I'm sorry, Henry, you said it.

I'll put that to the chair.

The thing about it is, Henry, I think actually, Henry, I mean, the world and the country is waiting for me to say one way or another on this thing.

It's very hard for me to go there without giving them a little hope.

Henry can give them a little hope, and it's all right.

But my situation is, I don't know, I just...

You're a loser.

I don't know.

They know you're not coming, and they know we've been working on other people, but they still think in the back of their minds that you're bleeding down.

That's the problem.

That's a problem.

I see.

Because you came last year.

What time is their dinner tonight?

Wouldn't do any good if it did at night.

If you're going to do it, you should go over this morning.

It's probably better to be able to talk for one minute.

That's right.

Plus, the other problem is there could be, if you go, an adverse, there could be signers.

Yeah.

There's the other thing.

We haven't done that.

Henry's not political.

I just have a feeling that seeing Henry with a strong voice on there and also then the next day is in Paris.

What would that say?

Just what you think he should say.

You just want to hear that reaction.

How much we appreciate the strong lead.

It bears what I would say by Virginia.

I would say, at least I have met with you.

We have never, we have, I know that there's nothing closer to the president's heart and so on and so on, even though we have made charges and so forth.

Then, then, that we will, the president refuses to exploit POWs for this issue for political purposes.

We will not.

Our goal is to get them returned and so forth.

And then, the fight is that there is nothing that we consider more important than to make the sacrifices

of those who have served in Vietnam, some of you in their lives, some have been POWs for years in their lives, and you, who have stood by our policy, despite this, who have stood for peace of mind, that we are not going to let you down, I assure you.

That would be my speech.

that these peace makes don't stand for what we believe in.

I can just do that in three minutes.

Yeah.

That takes a long time.

There's always a peace that will dictate itself.

Yeah, that's what I think, that we... You'll drop your pen.

And I think that Henry was having in mind the fact that we are dedicated to that, and we are going to achieve that kind of a peace.

Just say that possibly.

We're dedicated to a peace.

And then there again,

The president has had to make hard decisions.

For example, his decision on the aid.

And that decision, but what is it?

And he's had support for some of these children and some opposition.

But the support that has meant the most to him has been the support of you, whose loved ones are POWs and so forth and so on.

Because he knows that what it means would mean to you to get them back.

But you are insistent.

This country must have peace with honor, and that's what we're going to do.

How's that sound to you?

You would say it would cost you a lot of money.

But I can't do it later than 10.30, because I could be on the plane by 11, but I could be on the plane by 10.

I will.

I think, actually, you could do the problem.

I think it looks like a crass attempt to...

Or do you agree with the history?

I go over it, but I don't do anything with it.

I share it with the ladies.

Well, there's something to be said that you're doing and doing that's, uh...

I don't know.

The only problem is that I...

I never will tend to object to anything I say when I'm in a conversation.

The danger is that it will be taken as a hopeful thing.

With me.

With you and them all.

In my opinion, because they know that you level and that you're negotiating.

And you can say that.

You can say that I am unsure.

And you can say that we have, that I want to make no, I'm not here to make any, to raise any false hopes.

But I can tell you that we are, there is nothing in which we are more devoted than this.

And we will make, and we will never make a settlement that will abandon the POWs.

I couldn't say that wrong.

We'll never make a settlement that will abandon his wood.

But we are, one of the conditions of the settlement is the return of our POWs, a guarantee of their safe return, and the accounting for the missing in action.

I don't, I'm wondering whether you should say that.

I'll be glad to say it.

I can't.

If you give any indication that it's imminent, then... Well, I won't.

But I won't.

But you just never know what's going to be interpreted out of it.

If anything, if I even, you know, flicker my eyelid, you know, you can't tell.

I'll be extremely careful.

Well, maybe not everybody.

Last time it was a terrific tip.

You know, 30 years past.

We are all suffering in the demagoguery of Holster Island.

Just go, you can go to the well once you want.

I am worried about all they receive.

I mean, I don't mean that, but I'd be delighted to do it, Mr. President.

It's, it's, if, if they indicate some displeasure with me, so what?

I mean, that's no risk.

They won't.

I mean, they won't do it, but you can never be sure that there isn't some nut there.

Well, there might be some in the maintenance department.

Well, that's what I mean.

That's the thing.

There could be.

There could be some of it just without some sort of a, sort of a, what are you going to do about this or that?

And that's something we'll make a television call to figure that out, of course.

But he normally does, but I'll be sure he's, they all want him to.

Well, tomorrow we're here in Paris.

The main thing is we're going to beat these bastards.

We are going to beat them.

I mean the political opposition are going to be beaten.

That's why I say don't worry about the election.

We're going to beat them.

And then we have to build the establishment.

It was an interesting thing that White indicated that they were going to endorse that they had objections from 125 of their 110 top editorial chiefs.

And do a zero.

Yeah.

See what I mean, no?

And so they delayed it a week.

125, 150.

This is why the people that you've been doing six or seven times, you've gone and done their goddamn editorial court and arrest.

Everybody else has.

But I mean... Four years.

Sure.

You've been decent to them.

Four years.

I mean, the point is, I'm not saying wrong.

We agree that you should.

But yet it isn't.

The point is that these entrepreneurs can't speak for yourself.

Beneath that, it's the bureaucracy, it's the universities in the eye, particularly in the East, it's the media, everything, don't care what the top guy tells you.

Down beneath, there is a weakness of character that is unbelievable in this country.

Unbelievable.

Do you agree or not?

Well, not of the country, but among the establishments of the country itself.

How much support did we get out of the IPD?

How much support did we get from the establishment of the press?

How much from the establishment of television?

None.

the schools, the colleges, and universities.

I mean, the ones that are supposed to be respectable.

And so the whole media, we didn't have a lot of support except for the Chicago Tribune and Smith-Henstrom and the Chicago Daily News.

I mean, the Washington, New York Daily News.

Pretty, pretty thin thickets, wasn't it?

After, after May, May was the acid test.

And in this bureaucracy, couldn't we have, we had Agnew, but Agnew is just basically a kick-up-in-the-nuts kind of a guy.

We had Connelly, basically because he's more heartland than he is brains.

He's both, he's fortunately brains with heartland.

Heartland, with heartland.

Curious lunch, curious lunch.

He's a brilliant son of a bitch.

Gosh, when I think of that decision, and how it's prepared us for all these things.

The election.

I think if one of the electioners had made the election, I think we would have lost it.

We hadn't done it.

We had sat back to remember Rogers and Laird in there.

You had the best of intentions, what Bill's saying.

I don't know whether it'll work.

We didn't know either.

And Laird's saying crisis is a hell of a risk and so forth.

So we didn't do it.

Do you remember Holmes?

If you hadn't been, do you realize, if we hadn't done that, South Vietnam would have collapsed.

You would have come to Moscow to find it.

That's right.

And they would have stopped waiting.

If you thought that meeting in the Darsha was tough, you should have seen what it would have been otherwise.

They would have agreed.

If it was scorn, you would have, everything would have become absolved, everything.

Because they would have had to, they would have known that you were, when you saw them, you know.

And all of the agreement was all thirsty.

Thirsty?

Yeah.

The trade agreement went astray.

Hmm.

I'm glad you're here.

Mr. President, I'll be in close touch with you.

I've got delirious gang plans.

If we want you to stop by us on your way to the airport, we'll tell you.

I'll wait another two years.

I should do it.

Which one do you think you should do it on?

I could do it.

Well, I'd likely think it was you.

But, you know, you understand now, maybe that again is a hopeful sign.

But I wouldn't say anything that could be on the fly strength that tomorrow is going to be that I say I'll give it to them and then we get it done.

I don't know.