Conversation: 811-003
Prev: 811-002 Next: 811-004Start Date: 1-Nov-1972 3:04 PM
End Date: 1-Nov-1972 4:07 PM
Participants:
Nixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.; Krol, John Cardinal; White House photographer; Bull, Stephen B.; Sanchez, Manolo; McGettigan, James;Recording Device: Oval Office
NARA Description:
On November 1, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Henry A. Kissinger, John Cardinal Krol, White House photographer, Stephen B. Bull, Manolo Sanchez, and James McGettigan met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 3:04 pm and 4:07 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 811-003 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid:
Conversation No. 811-3
Date: November 1, 1972
Time: Unknown between 3:04 pm and 3:08 pm
Location: Oval Office
The President met with Henry A. Kissinger.
Greetings
Arnaud de Borchgrave
-Recent lunch with Kissinger
-Support for the President
-Possible meeting with President
-De Borchgrave’s physical appearance
-Vietnam War
-Recent trip to Hanoi, Saigon
-Hardline stance
-Newsweek
-Article
-Abram Chayes
-Harvard University
-George S. McGovern
-3-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
-Vietnam War
-Settlement agreement
-US victory
-North Vietnamese troop withdrawals
-Reasons
-Rebuilding, control
-Problems
-Saigon
-Ellsworth F. Bunker
Vietnam War
-Saigon
-Nguyen Van Thieu
-Possible letter to Pham Van Dong
-Recent statement
-Attack on the President
-Bunker
-Contacts with Thieu
-Cables
-Memoranda
-Settlement agreement
-De Borchgrave’s view
-Newsweek editorial staff
-News summary
-Philadelphia Bulletin article
-[Adrian Lee]
-Possible role in administration
-Hamilton Fish Armstrong
-Article [“Isolated America,” in Foreign Affairs, October 1972]
-Patrick J. Buchanan
-Kissinger’s possible memorandum
-Timing
-1972 election
-Medal of Freedom
-Kissinger’s memorandum
-Fish’s retirement
-Liberal establishment
-Medal of Freedom
-4-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
John Cardinal Krol entered at 3:08 pm.
Greetings
Krol
-Meaning of name
Press , photographers, and Stephen B. Bull were present at the beginning of the meeting.
Photograph session
-Seating arrangement
[Photograph session]
-[General conversation]
-Warsaw
Manolo Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 3:08 p.m.
Refreshments
-Coffee, tea, Coca-Cola, consumme
Sanchez, Bull, the press and photographers left at an unknown time before 4:02 pm.
Krol’s trip to Poland, October 12-17, 1972
-Stefan Cardinal Wyszynski
-Health, spirit
-Role
-Background as university professor
-Marxism
-Sociology, economics
-Poland-Soviet Union relations
-Kremlin
-Poland leadership
-Central committee
-Scapegoating
-Effect of Krol trip
-The President’s 1969 trip to Poland
-William P. Rogers’s role
-5-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
-Timing
-Itinerary
-Rationale
-Possible US letter
-Roman Catholic Church
-Nationalism
-Prevention of 1966 trip to Warsaw by US bishops
-Egon Bahr’s [?] alleged role
-Conditions
-Travel agency
-Number of visitors
-Public reception
-Emotion
-The President’s trips
-Romania
-Wreath laying
Poland
-Spiritualism, nationalism
-Compared to Romania
-Previous partition
-Political anecdotes
-Examples
-Wyszynski’s conversation with unknown official
-Promotion of socialism, control of religious activity
-People’s Republic of China [PRC] hypothetical declaration of
war on France, Romania, Poland
-Responses of respective countries
-Krol’s trip to Siekierczyna
-Krol’s father
-Receptions
-Meeting with young girl
-Road paving
-Commissionar
-Warsaw
-Lvov
-Church
-Attendance
-Roman Catholic Church
-6-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
-Relations with government
-Wyszynski
-Compared to Joseph Cardinal Mindszenty
-British commentator’s 1956 article
-Martyrs and cardinals
-Conversation with Krol in Cleveland in 1948
-Martyrdom
-Hungary
US-Poland relations
-Trade
-Tone
-Anti-communism
-Polish-American, Ukrainian-American, Russian-American groups
-The President’s view
-Youth
-Russian, Poles
-Communications
-Liberation policy
-Soviet Union
-Military presence in Poland
-Future
-Communications
-Polish trade
-East
-Polish communism
-Communist Party
-Independence
-Western orientation
-Soviet Union
-Agriculture
-Cooperatives
-Private ownership
-Advantages
-Compared to Ukraine
-Weather conditions
-Government Concessions
-Soviet communists
-Trade
-7-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
-Deficit
-Balance
-Advantages
-Poland independence from Soviet Union
-Polish people
-Polish government
-Edward Gierek
-Polish government
-Fear of Soviet Union
-The President’s relationship with Gierek and a [Piotr Jaroszewicz]
-Compared to Polish government relationship to Soviet Union
-Ties with US
-Polish Politburo
-Soviet Union
-Geography
-Access to information
-Polish people
Krol’s trip to Poland
-Krol’s speech at Auschwitz
-Christianity
-Love of God, neighbor
-Deaths
-Catholics, priests, Jews, gypsies, Hungarians
-Unknown book
-Christianity
-Love
-Absence of conditions
-Murder of Polish officers by Soviets [Katyn Forest Massacre]
-Love of God, neighbor
-Wreath placement
-Maximilian Kolbe
-Plaque
-Jews, gypsies
Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 3:08 pm.
Refreshments
-Coffee
-8-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
Sanchez left at an unknown time before 4:02 pm.
-Jesuit Church
-Jesuit deaths
-Sanctuary for Jews
-Incident
-Warsaw Ghetto
-Wall
-The President’s trip
-Jews
-Murder by Germans
World War II
-Jews
-Unknown book
-Peter Krol
-Marriage
-Penalty
-Protection by Gentiles
-Penalties for aiding, sheltering, feeding, clothing, selling
Krol’s visit to Poland
-Krol’s conversation with seminary director
-Auschwitz
-Attendance
Poland
-Roman Catholic Church
-Recruiting for seminaries
-Faith
Krol’s trip to Poland
-Arrangements
-Unknown people, places
-Reception
The President’s schedule
Vietnam negotiations
-9-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
-Settlement agreement
-Krol’s statement
-National Conference of Catholic Bishops
-Requests for prayers
-Private talks, July 19, 1972
-North Vietnamese proposals
-Nguyen Van Thieu resignation
-South Vietnam army, police
-US economic, military aid
-Vietnamization
-Release of prisoners
-South Vietnam negotiations with Vietcong [VC]
-Coalition government
-Coalition government
-The President’s proposals
-May 8, 1972 proposals
-Cease-fire, release of Prisoners of War [POWs], troop withdrawals
-South Vietnam self-determination
-Publicity
-US fear
-George S. McGovern’s possible claims
-October 8, 1972 breakthrough
-The President’s May 8, 1972 proposals
-Thieu retention
-US economic and military aid
-South Vietnam army
-Size
-PRC
-Soviet Union and PRC
-Influence of North Vietnam
-Private channels
-Kissinger’s conversations, correspondence with Anatoliy F. Dobrynin
-Settlement agreement
-South Vietnam
-Political prisoners
-Coalition government
-National Council of National Reconciliation and Concord [NCRC]
-Elections organization and supervision
-Thieu
-Veto power
-10-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
-Power
-Coalition government
-Liberal Democrats’ view
-North Vietnam’s view
-[Pham Van Dong’s] interview with Arnaud de
Borchgrave of Newsweek
-Laos and Cambodia
-North Vietnam troop withdrawals
-Cease-fire
-Laos
-Souvanna Phouma’s recent meeting with the President
-Phouma
-French language, manners
-Gen. Charles A. J. M. de Gaulle
-North Vietnam
-Recovery
-US aid
-Compared to Japan
-Hard work, expansionism
-US aid
-Coalition government
-Territorial control
-VC
-South Vietnam government
-Thieu’s relations with US
-US military
-B-52s, F-4s
-Residual forces
-South Vietnam military
-Army
-Comparison with North Vietnam
-Air Force, navy
-US economic and military aid
-Air Force
-Number, quality
-Dependence on US
-Gen. Creighton W. Abram’s, Jr.’s comments
-US presence in South Vietnam
-Compared to Europe, South Korea
-Congressional aid
-11-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
-Vietnamization
-Alternative
-Continuation of war
-Post-1972 election
-Duration
-Effect on US
-Thieu
-South Vietnam, VC, North Vietnam deaths
-US relations with Soviet Union, PRC
-Thieu
-Possible perception
-North Vietnam
-Resilience
-North Vietnam intentions
-Cambodia and Laos
-Infiltration of South Vietnam
-Pause
-Mao Tse-Tung
-Effect of US mining, bombing
-Desire for US aid
-Soviet Union and PRC
-US withdrawal
-Costs of war
-Thieu’s relations with US
-Public statements
-Nationalism
-Complexity
-North and South Vietnam
-US role
-Mediation
-Terms
-Quality
-Future of war
-South Vietnam
-Remote areas
-Montagnards
-North Vietnam
-Protracted war
-US bombing
-POWs
-12-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
-Thieu
-Conversation with Kissinger
-Victory in war
-US withdrawal
-Victory
-Control of population
-Army
-Police
-VC
-Prisoners
-Demoralization
-Popular support
-Elections
-National legislative
-Thieu
-US terms
-POWs
-Cease-fire in Indonesia
-Cambodia and Laos
-Coalition government
-South Vietnam self-determination
-Election
-Arrangements
-Communist participation
-Thieu
-US options
-Thieu
-Breakdown of negotiations
-US public opinion
-Media, opinion makers
-Thieu’s retention
-Quality
-De Borchgrave
-Recent lunch with Kissinger
-Newsweek
-Recent trip to Hanoi
-View
-Newsweek
-Victory
-Substance
-13-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
-Thieu
-US withdrawal
-POWs
-Effect on Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia
-The President’s policies
-“Intelligent” opinion
-Compared to popular opinion
-Peace with honor
-South Vietnam self-determination
-Discouraging aggression, evil
-Impact on Soviet Union
-US mining, bombing
-Impact on PRC
-Impact on Middle East
-Golda Meir
-Total victory
-Nuclear weapons
-Conventional bombing
-Willingness to settle
-North Vietnam
-Compared to South Vietnam
-Details
-North Vietnam
-South Vietnam
-Substance
-North Vietnam agreement
-Marginal changes
-Possible effect on North Vietnam
-Confidence
-Thieu
-PRC, Soviet Union
-Thieu
-Concurrence
-The President’s role
-Possible meeting
-Timing
-Timing
-1972 election
-North Vietnam’s view
-Thieu
-14-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
-1968 election
-1968 bombing halt
-Lyndon B. Johnson
-Hubert H. Humphrey
-Strategy in 1968
-Compared to 1972
-Change in conditions
-Bombing halt
-Humphrey
-Humphrey’s position on Vietnam
-Compared to the President’s
-George S. McGovern
-Presidential support
-Krol’s support
-Request for prayers
-Statement, October 31, 1972
-National Conference of Catholic Bishops
-Press conference, November 1, 1972
-Roman Catholic Church
-Criticism
-Unknown bishop
-Henry C. Cashen, II’s concern
-US public opinion
-Krol’s view
-Politics
-Thieu
-Peace
-Krol’s view
US foreign policy
-Kissinger’s schedule
-Middle East
-Difficulties of settlement
-Comparison with Vietnam
James McGettigan, press, and photographers entered at 4:02 pm.
Greetings
Photograph session
-15-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
-Arrangements
[Photograph session]
McGettigan
-Background
-Philadelphia
Presidential gifts
-Golf balls
-Cuff links
-Presidential seal
-Flag
McGettigan
-Role as secretary to John Krol
-The President’s viewing of The Cardinal
-Possible promotion to cardinal
John Krol
-Meeting with the President
-Prayers
Vietnam War
-The President’s policy
-Tone
Krol and McGettigan left at 4:05 pm.
[Unintelligible]
John Krol
-Possible ambassadorship
-Foreign policy view
-Tone
-Roman Catholic Church
-Vietnam War
-The President’s policy
Vietnam negotiations
-16-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)
Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)
-Thieu
-Emissary
-Settlement agreement
-October 8, 1972
-Hypothetical US “stonewalling”
-Publication of terms
-1972 election
-McGovern
-Cease-fire
-Troop withdrawals [from Laos, Cambodia]
-POWs
-Thieu
-Dealings with administration
-Emissary
-Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
-Abrams
-Haig
-Kissinger
-Haig
-Delivery of letter
-Return to US
-Letter
-Legal palaver
-Adm. [John S. McCain, Jr.]
-Kissinger’s view
-Haig
-Timing of trip
-Kissinger
-Haig
-Delivery of letter
-Return to US
Kissinger left at 4:07 pm.