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Conversation: 824-003

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Start Date: 15-Dec-1972 12:45 PM

End Date: 15-Dec-1972 1:54 PM

Participants:

Nixon, Richard M. (President)Ziegler, Ronald L.Ehrlichman, John D.

Recording Device: Oval Office

824-003a.mp3

824-003b.mp3

NARA Description:

On December 15, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, and John D. Ehrlichman met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:45 pm to 1:54 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 824-003 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid:

Conversation No. 824-3

Date: December 15, 1972
Time: 12:45 pm - 1:54 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Ronald L. Ziegler and John D. Ehrlichman.

       Second term reorganization
            -Wallace H. Johnson
                  -Assistant Attorney General, Land and Natural Resources Division
            -Ambassadorship to the United Nations [UN]
                  -John A. Scali
                        -Announcement
                              -Leaks
                                    -Washington Star
                                          -Ziegler’s conversation with I. William Hill
                                                -George H. W. Bush
                                                -Trips to the People’s Republic of China [PRC]
                                                 and the Soviet Union
                                                -UN, White House, State Department coverage
                                                -Trips to the PRC
                                    -Hill
                                          -Radio
                                                -Timing
                                    -[American Broadcasting Company] [ABC]
                                          -Scali’s conversation with Leonard H. Goldenson
                                                -Timing
                                    -Washington Star

       Vietnam negotiations
            -Henry A. Kissinger’s briefing
                 -Timing
                 -Ziegler’s meeting with Kissinger
                 -The President’s memorandum
                        -Tone
                              -Prisoners of War [POWs]
                              -Cease-fire
                              -Imposition of Communist government in South Vietnam
                                             -49-

                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                      Tape Subject Log
                                        (rev. June-08)

                                                             Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

                               -Long war, short peace
                   -Ziegler’s meeting with Kissinger

Ziegler left at 12:46 pm.

       Second term reorganization
            -Johnson
                  -Assistant Attorney General, Land and Natural Resources Division
                        -Condemnations
                        -Bureau of Land Management [BLM]
                        -Relationship with the administration
            -Sallyanne Payton
                  -Plans
                        -Banking
                        -Supreme Court
                               -Age, experience
                        -General Counsel
                               -Banking
                               -Treasury Department
                               -Federal Home Loan Bank Board
                                     -Banking
                                     -Length of term
                        -Supreme Court
                               -Banking
                  -Money making
                  -Marital status
                  -Appreciation
                        -Ehrlichman’s meeting with the President
                  -District of Columbia
                        -Egil (“Bud”) Krogh, Jr. appointment
                        -Blacks
                               -Problems
                                     -Pressures
            -Edwin L. Harper
                  -Conversation with Ehrlichman
                        -Vice President Spiro T. Agnew’s offer
            -Agnew
                  -Bicentennial
            -Dr. Edward E. David, Jr.
                               -50-

     NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                        Tape Subject Log
                          (rev. June-08)

                                                Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

       -National Aeronautics and Space Administration [NASA]
             -George P. Shultz
             -Condition
                    -Ehrlichman’s conversation with Shultz
       -Atomic Energy Commission [AEC]
       -Departure
-[Dixy Lee Ray]
       -AEC
             -Publicity
-NASA
       -James C. Fletcher
       -[Lide A. Iacocca]
             -Italian-American background
             -Chrysler Corporation
-Scali
       -Announcement
-Ethnic considerations
       -Polish-American
             -Reception for 1972 election supporters
-Ehrlichman’s meeting with Malek
       -Refusal of jobs
             -Under Secretaries
                    -White House mess
             -New approach
-Ehrlichman’s schedule
       -Haldeman’s schedule
-Refusal of jobs
       -Malek
-Claude S. Brinegar
       -George D. Webster
             -Internal Revenue Service [IRS]
                    -Audit
       -Ehrlichman’s meeting with Krogh
       -Meetings with Krogh
       -Confirmation
             -Krogh’s view
       -Prospects
             -Krogh
                                      -51-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                               Tape Subject Log
                                 (rev. June-08)

                                                        Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

The President’s picture
     -The President’s conversation with Peter J. Brennan at reception for 1972 election
       supporters
           -The President’s conversation with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
           -Flag lapel pin
                  -Jingoism
           -Labor Department offices
                  -James D. Hodgson, Shultz
           -Brennan’s background
                  -Irish Democrat
     -US embassies
           -Sweden
                  -Ehrlichman’s schedule
                         -Instruction
           -State Department
                  -Inspector General
                         -Foreign Service Officer [FSO]
                         -Residences
     -Public buildings
           -General Services Administration [GSA]

Second term reorganization
     -GSA
           -Hugh Scott’s recommendation [Arthur F. Sampson]
                 -Relationship with the administration
                 -[Robert L. Kunzig]
                 -Alternative
                       -Loyal businessman-politician
                             -The President’s picture
                                   -Public buildings
                       -List
                             -Ethnics
                                   -Businessmen
                 -Kunzig
                 -1972 campaign
     -Rights

Ehrlichman’s schedule
      -Budget meeting
                                      -52-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                Tape Subject Log
                                  (rev. June-08)

                                                      Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)


Paraplegics
     -Budget
            -Cuts
                    -Caspar W. (“Cap”) Weinberger
                    -News summary
                         -Ehrlichman’s reading
                    -Weinberger
                         -The President’s view

Vietnam War
     -Charles H. Percy
          -US aid to South Vietnam
                 -Chicago Tribune
          -White House access

Veterans
     -Vietnam veteran Robert Muller’s appearance on Today show
           -Veterans’ Health Care Expansion Act of 1972
                 -The President’s veto
                       -Reason
                             -Congressional fiscal responsibility
                       -Vietnam War
                             -US bombing
                       -Veterans Administration [VA] hospitals
                             -Changes since World War II, 1950s
                       -Timing
                             -1972 election
                                    -[October 27, 1972]
                       -Paraplegics
           -Response
                 -Equal time
                       -Donald E. Johnson
                       -Disabled Veterans of America
           -Paraplegics
                 -Muller
           -Veteran benefits legislation
                 -Signature
           -Veterans organizations
                                     -53-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                              Tape Subject Log
                                (rev. June-08)

                                                     Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

           -Response
                 -Johnson
                 -The President’s actions
                       -Bills
     -Veterans’ Affairs Committee
           -Olin E. (“Tiger”) Teague
                 -Change of committees
                       -Space and Technology Committee

Second term reorganization
     -Ethnics
           -Polish-Americans
           -Black
     -Woman
           -Ray
                 -Ivy Baker Priest
                 -Symbolism
                 -AEC
                 -Compared to Jean Westwood
     -David
           -NASA
                 -Condition
                       -Policy implications
     -1972 election
           -The President’s conversation with Ehrlichman
                 -The President’s conversation with Haldeman
           -Problem
                 -Responsibility
                       -Self-imposed discipline

Press relations
      -Washington Post
             -White House coverage
                  -Meeting with White House staff
                       -Kissinger
                             -New Republic

Second term reorganization
     -Control
                                    -54-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                             Tape Subject Log
                               (rev. June-08)

                                                     Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

     -Two party system
          -Republicans

Congressional relations
     -The President’s conversation with Michael J. Mansfield
            -Republican leadership and bipartisanship meetings
                 -Scott
                 -The President’s conversations with William E. Timmons and Tom C.
                  Korologos
                 -Mansfield
                 -Wilbur D. Mills
                 -Russell B. Long
                 -Second term reorganization
                        -Chet Holifield
            -Need for cooperation
                 -Voting for man
                        -Compared to voting for party
                 -[Republican] control of White House
                        -Compared to [Democratic] control of Congress
                 -Mansfield’s views
                 -Need for secrecy
                        -Leaks
                 -Partisans
                        -Possible problems
     -Meetings
            -Republicans
                 -Percy
                 -Samuel L. Devine
                 -Scott
                 -Meetings with Democrats
                        -Mansfield
                        -George H. Mahon
                        -Mills
                        -Compared to meetings with Charles McC Mathias, Jr., Percy,
                         Edward W. Brooke
                        -New Majority
     -Split government
            -Harry S. Truman
                 -80th Congress, 1946-48
                                     -55-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                              Tape Subject Log
                                (rev. June-08)

                                                       Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

                      -Issues
                            -Robert A. Taft, Sr.- Fred A. Hartley Act
                            -Wage and price controls
                            -Domestic policy
                            -Foreign policy
                            -Domestic policy
                            -Wage and price controls
                      -Achievements
     -Nonpartisanship
     -Republicans
           -Partisanship
                  -Governors
                       -Request for quarterly meetings with the President
                  -Gerald R. Ford
                       -Breakfast meetings with the President
                  -The President’s obligations
                       -National interest
     -State of the Union speech
     -1973 Inaugural speech
     -State of the Union speech
           -Delivery
           -Length

Speechwriting
     -Domestic policy
           -Briefing paper
                 -Kenneth R. Cole, Jr.
                 -1972 campaign
                 -Problem solving
                 -Proposed projects
                 -Legislation
     -1973 Inaugural speech
           -Previous speeches
                 -Word count
                       -The President’s conversation with Haldeman
                             -Raymond K. Price, Jr.
                             -Theodore Roosevelt
                             -The President, 1969
                             -Roosevelt
                               -56-

     NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                        Tape Subject Log
                          (rev. June-08)

                                                Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

                      -Franklin D. Roosevelt, 193[7]
                      -John F. Kennedy, 1961
                            -The President’s view
-Brevity
      -Kissinger
      -Price
      -Gettysburg Address
      -People’s Republic of China [PRC] trip announcement
-1973 Inaugural speech
      -Proposed length
             -Price’s draft
-Briefing papers
      -Domestic policy
-Messages to Congress
      -Brevity
      -Vetoes
-Speechwriters
      -Teaching of writing
             -Discipline
                   -Book length
      -Winston S. Churchill
             -Use of language
      -Problem of time
      -Theodore Roosevelt as writer
             -1905 Inaugural speech
      -Churchill as writer
             -Compared to the President as writer
      -Theodore Roosevelt
             -Speechwriter
                   -Price’s view
      -Price
             -Tone
                   -Kissinger’s view
      -The President’s natural style
             -Theodore Roosevelt
      -The President’s writing
             -November 3, 1969 speech
             -May 8, 1972 speech
             -Cambodia speech
                          -57-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                   Tape Subject Log
                     (rev. June-08)

                                            Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

      -Effectiveness
-Work with the President
-Speech construction
      -Outline
      -The President’s frame of mind
      -Outline
             -Reading
      -Introduction
      -Conclusion
      -Price
      -Patrick J. Buchanan
-John K. Andrews, Jr.
      -Style
      -Experience
-William L. Safire
      -Style
             -The President’s radio address on the Philosophy of Government
-The President’s writing style
      -Lawyers
      -Acceptance speeches
             -Quotes
                   -Use
-Speech construction
      -Work required
      -Outline
      -Introduction
      -Conclusion
      -Lee W. Huebner
      -Anecdotes
             -Appropriateness
-Hiring
      -Background
             -Rockefeller Foundation
             -William E. Brock, III
      -Type of writer
             -Comparison
                   -Buchanan
                   -Daniel P. (“Pat”) Moynihan
                        -Style
                                      -58-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                              Tape Subject Log
                                (rev. June-08)

                                                     Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

     -1973 Inaugural speech
          -The President’s trip to Florida
          -Problem

Second term
     -Domestic policy
           -Briefing paper
           -Accomplishments in first term
           -Issues
                 -Race
                       -Focus
                             -Administration actions
                             -Media relations
                 -Revenue sharing
                       -Importance
                       -Advisory Commission on Intergovernmental Relations [ACIR]
                         meeting
                             -Governors, mayors, Congressmen
                             -Property tax
                       -Cities, states
                             -Budget surpluses
           -Ehrlichman’s press briefing
                 -Urban crisis
                       -Riots
                       -Crime rates
                       -Drug rates
                       -Mass transit
                       -Revenue sharing
                       -Dan Rather’s conversation with Herbert G. Klein, Kenneth W.
                         Clawson
                             -Columbia Broadcasting System [CBS]
           -Ehrlichman’s possible briefings
                 -Frequency
           -Revenue sharing
                 -Kennedy
     -Kennedy’s foreign policy
           -Nuclear Test Ban Treaty
                 -Importance
                 -US, Soviet Union
                                 -59-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          Tape Subject Log
                            (rev. June-08)

                                                    Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

-Domestic policy
    -Press relations
           -Revenue sharing
                 -Passage
                 -Corruption
                 -Local action
                        -City councils, county supervisors
                        -Taxes
                              -Lighted streets, schools, police
    -Race [blacks]
           -Tokenism
                 -Payton
                        -Job
                        -Possible meeting with the President
                 -Walter E. Washington
                        -National recognition
                        -Relationship with the Administration
                              -Washington, DC
           -Housing and school integration
           -Welfare
           -Family Assistance Plan [FAP]
           -Food stamps
           -Sickle cell anemia
           -Possible programs
                 -Assistance
                 -Black-White confrontation
           -Education
                 -Disadvantaged neighborhood schools
                        -Financial help for physical plants, faculty, books
                              -Moynihan’s view
                 -Hereditary and environment
                 -Schools
                        -Tokenism
                              -Minority business
                              -Previous legislation of 92nd Congress
                              -Possible visits by the President
                                    -Neutral ground
                 -Reading programs
                 -Truism
                                      -60-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                               Tape Subject Log
                                 (rev. June-08)

                                                        Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

                             -Minority advancement
           -FAP
                  -Department of Housing, Education and Welfare [HEW]
                        -Elliot L. Richardson
                        -Weinberger
                  -Ehrlichman’s press briefing
                        -1972 election
                              -Mandate for tougher work requirement
                        -Congressional relations
                              -Senate
                                     -Deadlock
                              -1972 election
                                     -Welfare reform
                                          -The President’s platform
                                                 -Administration proposals
                                                       -Elimination of Aid to Families
                                                        with Dependent Children
                                                        [AFDC]
                                                       -Employment
                                                       -Fraud elimination
                                                       -Experiments
                                                       -AFDC

Race relations
     -Blacks
            -The President’s concern
            -Abraham Lincoln’s views
                 -Equality with whites
                        -Slavery
                        -Fairness
            -The President’s views
                 -Liberals
                 -University of Southern California [USC] and Stanford University
                  football teams
                        -Entrance requirements
                              -Black athletes
                                    -Recruitment
                 -Black leaders, children, waiters
                 -Intelligence
                        -Payton
                                      -61-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                              Tape Subject Log
                                (rev. June-08)

                                                        Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

                       -Jewell S. Lafontant
                              -Whites
                       -Empathy
                       -Equality with whites
                              -Intelligence
                              -School and housing intergration
                       -Need for honesty
                       -Rewards
                       -Tokenism
                              -Sammy Davis, Jr.
                       -Schools
                              -Improvement
                       -Minority business
                              -Cost
                              -Mexian-Americans
                       -Expectations during first term
                              -Deflation
                              -Cabinet appointments
                              -General Motors [GM]
                              -Judgeships
                              -Ambassadors
                       -Ambassadors
                              -Sweden
                              -Liberia
                              -Norway
                              -Denmark
                              -Jerome H. Holland
                                     -Achievements
           -The President’s appointments
                 -Merit
           -Schools
           -Assistance to blacks
                 -Civil rights leaders
           -Rev. Theodore S. Hesburgh
                 -Civil rights community
                 -Georgetown elite
                       -Views

Second term reorganization
     -Hesburgh
                                    -62-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                             Tape Subject Log
                               (rev. June-08)

                                                     Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

            -Departure
     -J. Stanley Pottinger
            -Assistant Attorney General, Civil Rights Division
            -Background
     -Commission on Civil Rights
            -Intellectual
            -John B. Connally
     -National Center for Voluntary Action [NCVA]
            -George W. Romney
                   -Ehrlichman’s meeting with Robert H. Finch
                         -Conversation with the President
                         -The President’s meeting with Romney and W. Clement Stone
                   -Finch’s performance
                   -Second phase
                         -The President’s meeting with Romney, Ehrlichman
            -Fundraising
                   -The President’s role
                         -The President’s meetings with Romney, Stone
                         -Dinners
                               -Stone
                               -John W. Gardner
     -Fundraising
            -Use of White House
                   -Dinners
                   -Boys Clubs

The President’s schedule
     -Business Council
           -Future meetings
     -New people
           -Compared to old elite
     -John W. Gardner
           -Urban Coalition
     -National Alliance of Businessmen [NAB]
           -Donald McI. Kendall
     -Representation from Sears Roebuck
           -Unknown person
                  -Chicago
     -NAB
           -Subsidies
                                      -63-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                               Tape Subject Log
                                 (rev. June-08)

                                                      Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

           -Use of White House
           -Fundraising
           -Vice President Spiro T. Agnew
           -Brennan
                 -Labor Department
           -Instruction to Ehrlichman
           -Eastern establishment
           -Lyndon B. Johnson administration
                 -Great Society
     -Ehrlichman’s record
     -Dinners
     -Congressional relations
           -Breakfast meetings
                 -Ford
                 -Compared to telephone calls
                 -White House contact
                       -Wives, staffs, news letters
                 -Frequency
                 -Hand-shaking
                       -Democrats, Republicans
                 -Passage of revenue sharing
                       -Mayors
           -Need for allies
           -John A. Tower
                 -Attitude
           -Peter H. Dominick
                 -Attitude
           -Gordon L. Allott
           -Brock
                 -Value

Congressional relations
     -Bryce N. Harlow
     -Timmons
     -Meetings
           -Clark MacGregor
           -Timmons
                 -Presence
                 -Personality
     -Second term reorganization
                                      -64-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                               Tape Subject Log
                                 (rev. June-08)

                                                        Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

           -James E. Smith
                -Treasury Department
           -Korologos
                -Senate
                -Effectiveness
           -Smith
                -Presence
                -Possible meetings with the President

The President’s schedule
     -Cabinet dinner
           -Seating arrangements
                  -Departures
                  -Mrs. Brennan
                        -The President’s right
                  -Under Secretary’s wife
                        -The President’s left
                  -Adele (Langston) Rogers
                  -[Suzanne (Lowell) Krogh]
                        -Background
                              -Japan
                  -Under Secretary’s wife
                        -William E. Simon
                        -[Carol (Girard) Simon]
                              -Background
                                    -New York
                  -Thelma C. (“Pat”) Nixon
                        -Maurice H. Stans
                        -John N. Mitchell
                        -Clifford M. Hardin
                        -Romney
                        -John A. Volpe
                        -Romney
                        -Volpe
                        -Stans
                  -Under Secretary’s wife
           -Invitations
                  -Blacks
                  -Cabinet, Under Secretaries, White House staff
                  -Blacks
                                             -65-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                     Tape Subject Log
                                       (rev. June-08)

                                                               Conversation No. 824-3 (cont’d)

                              -Under Secretaries
                                   -Samuel L. Jackson
                              -Robert J. Brown
                                   -Price
                                   -Klein
                                   -Finch
                                   -Donald H. Rumsfeld
                                   -Jackson

       The President’s schedule
            -Congressional relations
                  -Social affairs
                         -Effect
                  -Meetings with the President’s supporters
                         -Senate Finance Committee
                               -Effect
                                     -FAP
            -Cabinet dinner
                  -Haldeman

       Press relations
             -Ziegler
                    -The President’s meeting with Ehrlichman
                         -Duration
                         -Domestic programs

Ehrlichman left at 1:54 pm.