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Conversation: 857-005

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Start Date: 15-Feb-1973 11:12 AM

End Date: 15-Feb-1973 12:02 PM

Participants:

Nixon, Richard M. (President)Scowcroft, Brent G. (Gen.)Goodpaster, Andrew J. (Gen.)White House operatorMoorer, Thomas H. (Adm.)[Unknown person(s)]Bull, Stephen B.

Recording Device: Oval Office

857-005a.mp3

857-005b.mp3

NARA Description:

On February 15, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Gen. Brent G. Scowcroft, Gen. Andrew J. Goodpaster, White House operator, Adm. Thomas H. Moorer, unknown person(s), and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:12 am to 12:02 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 857-005 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid:

Conversation No. 857-5

Date: February 15, 1973
Time: 11:12 am - 12:02 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Gen. Andrew Goodpaster and Gen. Brent Scowcroft. Members of the
press were present at the beginning of the meeting.

       Prisoners of War [POWs]

       Vietnam settlement
             -President's accomplishment

       Pentagon visit
              -Goodpaster's attendance
              -North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO]

The President talked with the White House operator at an unknown time after 11:12 am.

       Request for Elliot L. Richardson or Adm. Thomas H. Moorer
                                             -29-

                 NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                   Tape Subject Log
                                     (rev. Oct.-09)
                                                       Conversation No. 857-5 (cont’d)




       Pentagon visit
              -Goodpaster’s attendance
                      -NATO
              -Joint Chiefs of Staff [JCS]

[Photograph session]

       Military
              -Year of Europe
              -South and Southeast Asia
              -Latin America

       Europe
                -Importance
                       -Economics and military
                -Mutual and Balanced Force Reductions [MBFR]
                       -Agenda
                -Conference on Security ad Cooperation in Europe [CSCE]
                       -Military implications

Scowcroft talked with Moorer between 11:14 am and 11:15 am. The President and
Goodpaster can be heard in the background.

       Meeting with the President and Goodpaster

[End of telephone conversation]

       Meeting with Joint Chiefs of Staff [JCS]
             -Goodpaster’s attendance
             -Defense Secretary
             -Service Secretaries
             -Report to Joint Chiefs
                     -Return of POWs
                     -Withdrawal
                     -Cease-fire implementation

       Relations with Europe
              -Troop levels in NATO
                                         -30-

               NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                  Tape Subject Log
                                    (rev. Oct.-09)
                                                      Conversation No. 857-5 (cont’d)




              -CSCE
                     -Discussions
                             -Edward R. G. Heath
                     -Economic considerations
                             -Trade
              -Security arrangements
              -Vietnam
              -Vietnam settlement
                     -Demonstration of US will and credibility
                             -US allies
                                     -Japan, Thailand
                             -Mutual security
              -Vietnam
                     -Peace with honor
                     -US goals
                             -May 8, 1972 speech
                     -Consequences of failure
                             -Allies’ loss of confidence
                     -Encouragement of aggression
              -Europeans’ confidence
                     -US commitment to NATO
                     -Strengthening
                             -President's statements about NATO
                     -Negotiations
                             -Position of strength and stability

Members of the press left at an unknown time before 12:02 pm.

       President’s statement
              -European confidence

       European negotiations with the Union of Soviet Socialists Republics [USSR]
             -President’s commitment
             -European confidence in Supreme Allied Commander, Europe [SACEUR]
                    -Dwight D. Eisenhower

       December 1972 bombing
            -European reaction
                                  -31-

         NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                           Tape Subject Log
                             (rev. Oct.-09)
                                               Conversation No. 857-5 (cont’d)




               -Great Britain
               -Greece
               -Turkey
               -European communist
                      -Helmet H.W. Schmidt
               -Australia
               -New Zealand
               -Japan
               -Heath’s support
               -Schmidt
                      -Socialists

President’s policies on NATO
       -European interests
               -Friendship
       -US in Vietnam
               -Impact of early withdrawal
                       -Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines
                       -Aggression
                              -USSR, People’s Republic of China [PRC]
               -US allies’ support
                       -Canada

Canada
         -Relations with US
         -United Nations [UN] vote on Taiwan

US allies
       -Reaction to US policies
       -Criticism of December 1972 bombing
               -Canada
                       -Pragmatic relationship
                       -UN vote on Taiwan
                       -Leftists, press, youth
       -Heath
               -Luncheon with Goodpaster
               -Relations with US
       -Behavior during December 1972 bombing
                                 -32-

        NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          Tape Subject Log
                            (rev. Oct.-09)
                                              Conversation No. 857-5 (cont’d)




NATO
       -Nixon Doctrine
              -Application
       -Mutual interests
              -National Security Council [NSC] study
              -Importance of Europe
              -MBFR
              -CSCE
              -Negotiations with USSR
                      -Gen. Lauris Norstad
                      -Status of forces
                      -Stability
                      -Problems
                      -Psychological impact
                      -Arbitrary deadlines

USSR
       -Proposals
              -Common sea lanes
              -Principle of party
              -Mixed packages
                      -Adjustments
                      -Détente
       -US view
       -Negotiations
              -Phases
              -Results

MBFR
       -Staff views
       -Goals

Military Unity in Europe
       -Rationalization of forces
               -European commitment
                      -Economies
                      -Flexibility
                                   -33-

          NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                             Tape Subject Log
                               (rev. Oct.-09)
                                                 Conversation No. 857-5 (cont’d)




                        -Unity
         -US cutbacks

New Technologies
      -Smart bombs
              -Experience in Vietnam
      -Anti-tank technology
      -Helicopter
              -Application

Force Restructuring
       -Budgetary cuts
       -Modernization
              -New technology

Future
         -Activate
         -Relations with NATO and USSR
         -NATO
                 -Consultation
                 -Sensitivities
                 -Effectiveness
         -President’s foreign policy
                 -Basis
                         -Personal relationship
                                -USSR
                                -PRC
                         -US interests
         -Need for US-European relationship
         -State visits
                 -Georges J. R. Pompidou, Willy Brandt

US-German relations
      -December 1972 bombing
             -Germany’s regrets
             -Germany’s domestic politics
                    -Leftists
      -Defense minister
                                     -34-

          NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                             Tape Subject Log
                               (rev. Oct.-09)
                                                   Conversation No. 857-5 (cont’d)




               -Former labor leader
               -Views regarding US
         -Schmidt
               -Political coalition

NATO
         -Denmark
                -Cutbacks
                        -US opposition
         -Belgium
                -Cut in term of service for conscripts
         -Germany
                -Restructuring of forces
                -German military’s opposition

Congress
      -Willingness to cut back
             -European criticism
             -Effect on Senate
             -Isolationism
      -European cut-backs
             -Japan’s view of cut-backs
             -Congressional response
             -Denmark’s proposals
                     -Effect

Tactical nuclear policy
       -Goodpaster’s opinion of Richardson
       -Need for consensus on value and limitations
               -Unresolved questions
               -Studies
               -Modernization
                       -New technology

France
         -US relations
                -Gen. Charles A. J. M. De Gaulle
                -Areas of cooperation
                                          -35-

                NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                   Tape Subject Log
                                     (rev. Oct.-09)
                                                        Conversation No. 857-5 (cont’d)




               -Michael Debre
                      -Role in US relations
               -French military
                      -Reaction to NATO
                      -Cooperation with Goodpaster
               -Improvements in relations

       Spain
               -Horatio Rivero, Jr.
                      -Capabilities
               -US-Spain relations
                      -Richardson’s support
                      -Joint committee
                              -Lopez-Rabule [?], Rivero, and Gen. Diaz-Allegria [?],
Virginal [?]
               -Military aid agreement
               -Foreign exchange
                       -Surplus
               -Political interests
                       -Gen. Francisco Franco
               -Preparations

       Goodpaster’s meeting with Donald H. Rumsfled
             -Military matters

       Cooperation with allies
             -National interests

       David M. Kennedy
             -Meeting with Goodpaster
                    -Cooperation

       Rumsfeld
             -Experience as NATO ambassador
             -Future in politics
             -Public appearances
                      -Style
             -Intelligence
                                       -36-

              NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                Tape Subject Log
                                  (rev. Oct.-09)
                                                       Conversation No. 857-5 (cont’d)




      Mamie G. D. Eisenhower
            -Appearance
            -Strength
            -Goodpaster's visit
                   -Augusta, Georgia
                   -Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
            -Appearances in public
                   -Public responses

      Henry Fairlie's book
            -The Kennedy Promise
            -US foreign policy
                     -President’s conversation with Ronald W. Reagan
                     -John F. Kennedy

An unknown person entered and left at an unknown time between 11:12 am and 12:02
pm.

             -View on Cuba
             -Kennedy’s foreign policy
                    -Criticism
             -Assessment of Dwight D. Eisenhower’s foreign policy

      President’s foreign policy
             -Contrast with Kennedy’s foreign policy
                     -Crisis-orientation
                     -Mistakes

      Cuban Missile Crisis
            -Kennedy’s handling
                    -Risks
                    -Military advantage
                    -Fidel Castro
                            -Stable position
            -Soviet missiles in Cuba
                    -Eisenhower’s responses
                    -Cienfuegos
                                           -37-

               NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                     Tape Subject Log
                                       (rev. Oct.-09)
                                                        Conversation No. 857-5 (cont’d)




             -Bay of Pigs
                    -Reasons for failure
             Guatemala
                    -Eisenhower’s action
             -Middle East Crisis of 1956
                    -John Foster Dulles

      Vietnam settlement
            -POWs
                    -Heroes
                            -Casualties
                            -Congressional Medal of Honor
            -Press
                    -Praise for draft dodgers and deserters
                    -Calls for amnesty
            -POWs
                    -Heroes to nation
                    -National morale
            -Critics of President
                    -Campus protests
                            -Amnesty

An unknown person entered at an unknown time after 11:12 am.

      Fairlie’s book
              -Value
                       -Goodpaster
                       -Rumsfeld

The unknown person left at an unknown time before 12:02 pm.

             -Analysis of American public relations
             -American presidency

      POWs
             -Support for bombing
                   -Answer to critics
             -Moorer’s comment
                                 -38-

        NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          Tape Subject Log
                            (rev. Oct.-09)
                                               Conversation No. 857-5 (cont’d)




       -December 26, 1972 bombing
             -President’s Christmas vacation
                     -Florida
             -Bombing halt
             -Number of B-52s
                     -Effects
             -Attitudes of captors
             -Effects of POWs

South Vietnam
       -Chance for survival

Bombing of North Vietnam
      -POWs’ responses
      -Press relations
              -Television [TV]
              -Public statement
              -Reasons
      -Impact on North Vietnam
              -Private negotiations
      -Public support
      -Press criticism
      -Bombing in World War II
              -US infantry
              -German cities
              -Civilian areas
              -Compared to Normandy landing
                      -Eisenhower
                      -Seine river bridges
      -Gen. Curtis Lemay
      -Impact
              -Moorer’s view
                      -Duration
      -White House staff
              -Concern over criticism
      -Press
              -Criticism
                      -Churches
                                          -39-

               NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                   Tape Subject Log
                                     (rev. Oct.-09)
                                                       Conversation No. 857-5 (cont’d)




                     -Nitpicking

       Flag flying at full staff
               -Claudia A. (Taylor) (“Lady Bird”) Johnson
               -Patriotism

       Mansfield-McGovern amendment
             -Bugou
             -POWs in exchange for withdrawal
                    -Loss of pride

Stephen B. Bull entered at an unknown time after 11:12 am.

       Arrival of J[ames] Curtis Counts

Bull left at an unknown time before 12:02 pm.

       Vietnam settlement
             -Success
             -Impact on US people
             -Southeast Asia
                     -Self-reliance
             -POWs
                     -Impact of return
                     -Statement by Denton

Goodpaster and Scowcroft left at 12:02 pm.