Conversation: 891-004
Prev: 891-003 Next: 891-005Start Date: 9-Apr-1973 3:31 PM
End Date: 9-Apr-1973 4:39 PM
Participants:
Nixon, Richard M. (President); Stockdale, James B.; Scowcroft, Brent G. (Gen.); White House photographer;Recording Device: Oval Office
NARA Description:
On April 9, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, James B. Stockdale, Gen. Brent G. Scowcroft, and White House photographer met in the Oval Office of the White House from 3:31 pm to 4:39 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 891-004 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid:
Conversation No. 891-4
Date: April 9, 1973
Time: 3:31 pm - 4:39 pm
Location: Oval Office
The President met with Adm. James B. Stockdale and Gen. Brent G. Scowcroft. The White
House photographer was present at the beginning of the meeting.
Arrangements for photograph
-17-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
Vietnam War
-Prisoners of War [POWs]
-Return
-Attitude
-Pride
-Press coverage
-Stockdale’s experience
-Solitary confinement
-Capt. Jeremiah A. Denton, Jr. and Col. Robinson Risner’s experience
-Solitary confinement
-Types
-Organization of POW camps
-Isolation of POW leaders
An unknown person entered at an unknown time after 3:31 pm.
Refreshments
The unknown person left at an unknown time before 4:39 pm.
Vietnam War
-Communist Party organization in North Vietnam
-Qualifications for membership
-Age
-Intellect
-Selflessness
Ability to influence others
-Attitude toward leadership
-Compared with US
-Communist leader class
-Politburo
-Imprisonment by France
-Effects on organization of POW camps
-Propaganda literature
-Experiences
-POW wives and families’ experience
-18-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-Stockdale’s wife
-Leadership
-Press coverage
-Divorce rates
-President’s efforts
-Peace groups
-Stockdale’s wife
-Support for President
-Stockdale’s expectations for POW release
-Schedule of releases
-Effects on prisoners
-Morale
-Support for December 1972
-President’s decision
-Cambodia
-November 1969
-Peace demonstrators
-Cambodia operations
-Sanctuaries
-Sihanoukville
-May 8, 1972 decision
-Bombing and mining of Haiphong
-POWs awareness
-Peace negotiations
-1972 election
-North Vietnam’s obstructionism
-December 1972 bombing
-Difficulty of decision
-B-52s
-Adm. Thomas H. Moorer
-Losses
-Laos
-Use of B-52s in December 1972 bombing
-Effects on North Vietnam
-Negotiations
-POW reactions
-Risner, Denton
-19-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-Destructive power
-Safety from bombing
-North Vietnamese reaction
-Civilian targets
******************************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1
[National Security]
[Duration: 5 s ]
INTELLIGENCE
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1
******************************************************************************
Vietnam War
-Use of B-52s in December 1972 bombing
-North Vietnamese reaction
-Hospital
-Press criticism
-Chicago Tribune
-Los Angeles Times
-President’s reasons for bombing
-New York Times
-Senate
-Portrayal of President’s actions
-“Mad bomber”
-Carpet bombing
-Effects on Hanoi
-Stockdale’s knowledge of game theory
-Credibility of threats
-20-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-Cyrus L. (“Cy”) Sulzberger’s column
-Cease-fire agreement
-North Vietnam violations
-Withdrawal of troops
-Laos
-Cambodia
-Infiltration
-South Vietnam’s violations
-Sulzberger’s column
-New York Times
-Michael J. (“Mike”) Mansfield
-Congress
-Pacifism
-Europe
-Cambodia
-Thailand and Vietnam
-Authority for President’s actions
-Congress
-Authority for Vietnam intervention
-Gulf of Tonkin Resolution
-National security
-John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson
-Authority for President’s actions
-1970 Cambodia operation
-Protection of US forces
-Violation of Agreement
-Lack of treaty
-Future
-Possible collapse
-Infiltration by North Vietnam
-Possible offensive
-Nguyen Van Thieu’s visit
-Need for US troops
-Congressional reaction
-Capabilities of South Vietnam
-Possible use of US air power
-Targets
-21-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-Ho Chi Minh Trail
-Quan Tri area
-Possible impeachment of President
-Spiro Agnew
-Public reaction
Peace with honor
-POWs
-Possible trade for US withdrawal
-Thieu’s government
-Viability
-Coalition government
-Communist government
-Military capabilities
-Resumption of hostilities
-Effect on US public opinion
-Possible use of US air power
-B-52s
-Need for provocation
-Thieu
-Effect of South Vietnam’s collapse
-US public opinion
-South Vietnam’s military capabilities
-People’s Republic of China [PRC]
-Battle of An Loc
-Aid to North Vietnam
-US public reaction to torture
-Compliance with Vietnam settlement
-Withdrawal from Laos and Cambodia
-Reduction of infiltration
-Purpose
-Rebuilding
-Influence
-Necessity
-US Public opposition
-President’s foreign policy philosophy
-Incentives
-North Vietnam’s desire for aid
-22-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-Central Committee
-Congressional action
-Request for appropriations
-Stockdale support [?]
-Soviet Union, PRC
-Role in Vietnam settlement
-North Vietnam
-Primitive Communism
-Soviet Union, PRC
-Technical experts
-Surface to air missile [SAM] sites
******************************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2
[National security]
[Duration: 6 m 50 s ]
POW CAMPS
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2
******************************************************************************
Vietnam War
-Stockdale’s experiences
-1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident
-US air operations
-North Vietnamese patrol boats
-Oil refinery
-Stockdale’s role
-August 4 operation
-US press coverage
-23-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-Potential effect of Stockdale’s role on his prison
experience
-Adm. Wesley L. MacDonald
-Western Pacific [WESTPAC]
-North Vietnamese patrol boats
-Lack of sightings
-US destroyers
-Lack of certainty
-Debriefing
-Messages from USS Turner Joy
-Wing commander
******************************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3
[National security]
[Duration: 5 s ]
COMMUNICATION CAPABILITIES
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3
******************************************************************************
Vietnam War
-Stockdale’s experiences
-1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident
-US air operations
-North Vietnamese patrol boats
-August 4 operation
-Messages from USS Turner Joy
-North Vietnamese patrol boats
-Lack of sightings
-Visit by Assistant Secretary of Defense
-24-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-McDonald
-Verification of patrol boat sightings
-August 5 operation
-Stockdale’s knowledge
-Exploitation by North Vietnamese
-Press coverage
-Life, New York Times
-Cara Weiss
-[unintelligible name]
-Congress, press
-Possible headline
-August 4 operation
-USS Maddox
-North Vietnamese patrol boat
-Lack of sightings
-Potential damage to US
-Antiwar movement
-Stockdale’s knowledge
-Cora Weiss
-Jane Fonda
-W. Ramsey Clark
-North Vietnam propaganda
-Stockdale’s wife
-Strength
-Virulence, bitterness
-President’s 1968 campaign
-Hecklers
-Stockdale’s conversation with unknown man
-Respectable intellectuals
-San Diego
-Stanford University
-Stockdale’s graduate studies
-Political orientation
-Philip H. Rhinelander
-Thomas A. Bailey
-Scholars at colleges and universities
-Conservative political orientation
-25-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-Elite schools
-Stanford University
-Ivy League
-Law schools
-Opposition to war
-President’s meeting with Ivy League presidents
-Cambodia
-May 8, 1972 decision
-Mining and bombing of North Vietnam
-Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI] [?]
-Elite press
-Television [TV] and radio
-Reasonable press
-James S. Copley
-George Randolph Hearst, Jr.
-Scripps-Howard
-Dallas Morning News
-Columbus newspaper
-Southern newspapers
-Leader class
-Downfall of civilizations
-Common people
-Reliability
-Corruption of leaders
-Weakness
-Great Britain
-France
-Germany
-Neo-isolationist view in US
-America First
-World War II
-Patriotism
-Disarmament sentiment
-Trident
-Antiballistic missiles [ABM]
-Troop withdrawals from Europe
-Soviet Union
-26-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-Eastern bloc
-Withdrawal from Asia
-Dismantling of fleet
-Focus on domestic problems
-Responsible class
-Role in World War II
-Japan
-US preparation
-Support of eastern international set
-Role in Korean War
-Invasion by North Korea
-United Nations [UN]
-US role in world affairs
-US burden
-World War I
-World War II
-Korean War
-Vietnam War
-Comparison with Great Britain
-World War I casualties
-Neo-isolationist view
-Intellectuals
-Clergy
-Business community
-Press
-Cambodia
-Cuts in defense budgets
-Spending on ghettos
-Leadership of free world
-Avoidance of fear
-Japan
-Europe
-Soviet Union
-Superpower
-Aggressive intentions
-PRC
-Future superpower
-27-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-Population
-World conquest
-US role in world affairs
-Importance for peace
-US relations with Soviet Union, PRC
-Negotiation, confrontation
-Vietnam settlement
-Avoidance of dishonor, humiliation
-Bugout from South Vietnam
-US public frustration
-Korean War
-Second class power status
-Leader class
-Resolve of American people
-Labor unions
-Farmers
-Small businessmen
-Wall Street
-Support for President
-1972 election
-Press endorments
-Support for George S. McGovern
-Isolationism
-Withdrawal from Vietnam
-McGovern’s shortcomings
-Mistakes
-Competence
-Effects of lack of resolve on lower class, youth
-Education
-Press
-Political speakers
-Peaceniks
-US dedication to peace
-PRC
-Dangers of war
-Colleges and universities
-Strong people
-28-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-Scarcity
-Liberals’ conduct
-Conservatives
-Lack of charisma
-President’s role
-Risner
-College graduates
-Stockdale’s conversation with Art van Dorn of New York Times
-Stockdale’s article
-Stockdale’s son
-Intended audience
-Origins of strength as POW
-Military ethic
-Selflessness
-Reprints
-Stanford University’s Alumni Magazine
-Importance
-Comparison with popular masses
-Baseball games
-Needs
-Religion
-Philosophy
-World affairs
-Leadership vacuum
-Leadership in world affairs
-US, Soviet Union
-Potential dangers
-Communist system
-Soviet Union, PRC
-Viciousness
-Destruction of American values
-Adm. Henry S. Monroe
-Conversation with liberal professor
-Stanford University
-Life in Communist system in US
-Incarceration of liberals
-Military influence
-29-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-Intolerance toward liberals
University education
-Stockdale’s outreach
-Effects on youth
-Stockdale’s son
-Ohio Wesleyan University
-Views on war
-Relationship with Stockdale
-Advisor
-San Diego
-Employment in steel mill
-Plans
-Travel in Europe
-Time off
-Young military officers
-Career pressures
-Speaking engagement at Los Angeles college
-Fonda
-Comparison with fighting Joe Louis
White House Dinner for POWs
-President’s conversations with Denton and Risner
-Defense Department [?]
-Guests
-President’s role
-National Security briefing
-Tour by Thelma C. (Ryan) (“Pat”) Nixon
-Reception
-Leslie T. (“Bob”) Hope
-Master of ceremonies
-Entertainment
-POW families
-Meetings with Denton, Risner, Gen. John B. Flynn
George Bond
-California Republican
-30-
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM
Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)
Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)
-Stockdale’s cousin
-Farm near Galesburg, Illinois
-Early aviation
-Knox County
-Bond family
Rose Garden
-Tulips
Stockdale’s visit to Connecticut
Stockdale and Scowcroft left at 4:39 pm.