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Conversation: 891-007

Prev:  891-006 Next: 891-008

Start Date: 9-Apr-1973 5:03 PM

End Date: 9-Apr-1973 6:21 PM

Participants:

Nixon, Richard M. (President)Flynn, John B.Scowcroft, Brent G. (Gen.)White House photographerSanchez, ManoloWhite House operatorKeogh, James

Recording Device: Oval Office

891-007a.mp3

891-007b.mp3

NARA Description:

On April 9, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, John B. Flynn, Gen. Brent G. Scowcroft, White House photographer, Manolo Sanchez, White House operator, and James Keogh met in the Oval Office of the White House from 5:03 pm to 6:21 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 891-007 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid:

Conversation No. 891-7

Date: April 9, 1973
Time: 5:03 pm - 6:21 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Gen. John B. Flynn and Gen. Brent G. Scowcroft. The White House
photographer was present at the beginning of the meeting.

     Introductions

     Photographs    

          -Arrangements              


     President’s schedule

     Photograph location         

          -Hands of state            


     Refreshments       

          -Coffee      

                -President’s habits        


Manolo Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 5:03 pm.

     Flynn
             -Meeting with President in 1964 

                  -National War College         

                  -Manila, Philippines       

                        -President’s private trip      

                        -Hotel      

                                              -32-


                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM 


                                      Tape Subject Log 

                                       (rev. April-2011)

                                                             Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)


Sanchez left at an unknown time before 6:13 pm.

     Maj. Gen. James D. (“Don”) Hughes 

          -Acquaintanceship         

          -Thailand       

                -13th Air Force [?]
          -White House dinner for Prisoners of War [POWs]
          -Role as President’s military aide
          -National League of Families of American POWs and Missing in Action in
           Southeast Asia 

                -Liason      


     White House dinner for POWs
          -Guests       

                -Absence of Cabinet members, VIPs 

                -POW families        

          -President’s conversations with Capt. Jeremiah A. Denton, Jr. and Col. Robinson
           Risner
                -Scheduling
                      -POWs’ readjustment to US
          -Arrangements        

                -Weather       

                -Tent     

                      -Capacity

     President’s trips to Philippines 

           -Bataan survivors        

           -Flynn meetings with past Presidents 

                 -Dwight D. Eisenhower
           -Meeting with Flynn          

                 -President’s kindness      

                 -Vietnam

                 -National War College trip       


Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 5:03 pm.
                                             -33-


                  NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM 


                                     Tape Subject Log 

                                      (rev. April-2011)

                                                          Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

     Spanish language
          -Sanchez’s background
                -Spain
                -Transportation to United States
                      -Cuba
                      -Possible return

Sanchez left at an unknown time before 6:13 pm.

     Vietnam War
          -Flynn’s role as POW leader
                -National morale
          -National weariness
                -Lyndon B. Johnson
                -Antiwar riots, demonstrations
                      -[October Moratorium] [?]
                      -Cambodia
          -Opponents of war
                -Peaceniks
                      -Appearance
                -Quakers
                -Presidential travel in US
                      -1972 campaign
                      -Demonstrators
                             -Viciousness
                             -Young women
                                   -Attitude
                -Future of US
                -Leader class
                      -Press
                      -Intellectuals
                      -Business lenders
                      -Congress
          -Attitude of common people
                -Support for President’s policies
          -Vietnam settlement
                -Violations
                                  -34-

       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. April-2011)

                                                   Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

             -Laos        

             -Cambodia          

             -Infiltration       

      -South Vietnam
             -Non-Communist government         

      -End of war           

      -Return of POWs

-POWs’ understanding of situation
      -POWs’ political orientations
      -Political pressures on President
-Return of POWs
      -Honor
-US role in world affairs
      -Peacemaker
      -Importance
      -Allies
      -Enemies
      -Chance of peace
-POWs
      -Treatment
      -Pride
      -“Return with Honor”
      -Commemorative plaque
-White House dinner for POWs
      -Plaque presentation to President
      -Arrangements
      -Foreign policy briefing by President
             -People’s Republic of China [PRC]     

             -Soviet Union         

             -Arms control         

             -Vietnam         

      -Attire        

      -Dinner          

      -Reception         

             -Receiving line
-POWs’ feelings for President
      -President’s appreciation
                                           -35-

         NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                  Tape Subject Log
                                   (rev. April-2011)

                                                                  Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

-POWs
    -Effect on nation
          -Antiwar movement
                -Character             

                       -Lack of faith in country                     

                       -“Peace at any price”                      

          -Pride      

    -Caliber of servicemen               

          -Air Force       

    -December 1972 bombing                     

          -B-52 raids          

          -POW recognition                   

                -Sound            

                -Bomb loads                  

          -Effects on North Vietnamese                     

                -Fear        

          -POW reaction             

                -Cheering             

                -Threat of bayoneting                  

                       -Camp commander                       

                -End of war                 

          -Prior attacks         

                -Selectivity               

          -B-52s        

                -Selectivity               

                -Devastation                

                -Carpet bombing                    

          -Opponents of President’s war policy
                -Press reaction                

                       -President’s insanity                    

                       -Carpet bombing                   

                       -Genocide                 

          -Effects on North Vietnamese                     

                -Attitude towards President                        

                -Continued bombing                   

                -President’s determination                      

                -Henry Kissinger’s theory                      

                                  -36-

       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                           Tape Subject Log
                            (rev. April-2011)

                                                    Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

                       -North Vietnamese ignorance of Western attitudes
                       -1972 election victory
                       -Mining of Haiphong
-October 26 agreement
-December 1972 bombing
      -Difficulty of decision
            -Christmas
      -Chicago Tribune
            -Criticism of President
-Flynn’s promotion in 1971
      -Rank
      -Backpay
-Vietnam settlement
      -North Vietnam’s violations              

            -Cambodia          

            -Infiltration       

      -Terms for aid to North Vietnam

            -Congress        

            -Compliance with settlement              

            -Investment          

            -POW atrocities              

            -Public opposition             

            -Leverage        

            -Uneasy peace              

      -Survival of South Vietnam

            -War’s goal          

      -Survival of Laos and Cambodia 

            -Uncertainty           

      -Thailand        

            -Treaty        

                   -Obligation to protect          

      -Testing of US will            

            -Possible US military response             

                   -Congress             

                   -Ho chi Minh Trail            

                          -Mon Tri           

      -Alexander M. Haig, Jr.’s mission to Southeast Asia 

                                -37-

       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                         Tape Subject Log
                          (rev. April-2011)

                                                 Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

           -Cambodia, North Vietnam, South Vietnam
-US war goals
     -Lack of public support
     -Non-Communist government in South Vietnam
     -International misunderstanding
     -Flynn’s leadership
           -Morale
           -US objectives       

                 -Achievement         

                 -Flynn’s prediction for POW release     

                        -May 8, 1972 decision       

     -1970 Cambodian operation           

           -Campus protests         

                 -Kent State University shootings     

           -Antiwar demonstration          

                 -Riots      

           -Effects of closing Sihanoukville      

                 -Elimination of sanctuaries      

     -1971 Laos operation         

           -Historians’ misinterpretation      

           -South Vietnamese armed forces        

                 -US air support        

           -Prevention of 1971 offensive by North Vietnam

-1972 North Vietnamese offensive
     -1972 election
     -1972 Moscow Summit
           -Pressures for conciliation
           -Compromised negotiating position
                 -Soviet tanks
                        -Hue
     -Popular support for President’s reaction
           -Press reaction
-December 1972 bombing
     -Popular reaction
           -President’s explanation
                 -Effect on negotiations
           -Opposition to bombing
                                  -38-

       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                           Tape Subject Log
                            (rev. April-2011)

                                                    Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

                  -President as “madman”        

            -North Vietnam’s refusal to negotiate      

                  -US Congress         

     -Weather        

            -B-52s      

     -Role of fighters         

            -Surface to air missiles [SAM]       

     -Effect of B-52s          

            -Fear among North Vietnamese           

            -Treatment of POWs

-Goals of North Vietnam
     -Topples US leadership
            -Compared to France
                  -Pierre Mendes-France       

            -1968 Tet Offensive         

            -1972 North Vietnamese offensive         

                  -1972 election
-1972 North Vietnamese offensive
     -Scale of attack
     -US mining and bombing
     -Attack across Demilitarized Zone (DMZ)
            -Mistake        

            -Tanks       

     -Press reaction         

-US goals
     -Defense against Communism
     -North Vietnam’s soldiers in South Vietnam
            -Viet Cong           

                  -North Vietnam’s support         

                  -Socialist world’s support       

            -Denials       

            -US advantage          

-Lyndon B. Johnson
     -Motives
     -Staff
     -Mistakes
            -Involvement in Vietnam
                                       -39-

        NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                              Tape Subject Log
                               (rev. April-2011)

                                                        Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

-President’s Silent Majority speech
      -November 3, 1969
      -Defense of US role
-President’s public war goals
      -Legitimacy of course
-President’s visits to Vietnam
      -Gradual escalation
      -Opinion of US military intervention
            -Primitive Communism

                   -North Vietnam       

            -Bombing of North Vietnam

                   -Selective targeting       

                   -Diplomatic purposes            

                   -Military purposes       

-1968 bombing halt
      -Effects on Johnson’s successor
            -Paris peace negotiations
                   -Charade       

            -1970 Cambodia operation             

            -May 8, 1972 decision         

                   -Provocation
-North Vietnam’s attack across DMZ
      -Effect on conduct of war
-December 1972 bombing
      -Psychological effects
-POWs
      -Effect on US policy        

            -President’s determination          

            -POW attitudes          

      -North Vietnamese attitudes         

            -Mistakes        

            -Lack of reasoned judgment              

-President’s previous meetings
      -Adm. James B. Stockdale
      -Risner
      -Denton
      -North Vietnam’s desire for US aid
                                 -40-

       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. April-2011)

                                                  Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

            -Compliance with Vietnam Settlement
-North Vietnam
      -Shrewdness
      -Possible future actions
            -South Vietnam

                    -Strategy          

                    -Economic aid           

            -Laos And Cambodia
            -Soviet Union and PRC
                    -Support
-Soviet Union and PRC
      -Role in world
            -Leadership of Communist movement
                    -Competitors
      -Relations with US            

            -Improvement              

            -US influence interests            

                    -North Vietnam
      -North Vietnam
            -Violations of Vietnam Settlement
                    -Notification of Soviet Union and PRC
-Soviet Union
      -Military aid to North Vietnam
            -South Vietnam’s capabilities            

                    -Manpower             

                    -Tanks        

                    -Airforce           

                    -Navy       

            -Commitment               

                    -Soviet message           

                          -Trustworthiness         

-President’s visit to Soviet Union and PRC
      -Peking
      -Moscow
      -US foreign policy goals
            -Competition between Soviet Union and PRC 

                    -Communist leaders           

                                         -41-

              NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                  Tape Subject Log
                                   (rev. April-2011)

                                                         Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

                 -US friendship        

                       -Price      

                              -Vietnam         

      -North Vietnam

           -South Vietnam’s role         

                 -Stability      

                 -Military capability        

                 -US reaction to invasion by North Vietnam

                       -Air strikes in South Vietnam

                       -External aid for North Vietnam

           -South Vietnam’s government           

                 -Autonomy         

                       -US interests       

                       -Possibility of collapse     


US role in world
     -Neo-isolationism in US
            -American First        

                  -World War II         

                  -Fortress America         

            -Disarmament sentiment           

                  -Unilateralism

            -US defense capabilities        

                  -Soviet Union        

     -World War I          

            -Possibility by Germany          

                  -Benefits for Europe         

     -World War II           

            -Germany’s occupation of France          

            -Great Britain       

                  -US assistance        

            -Japan       

                  -Attack on Pearl Harbor        

     -Great Britain, France        

            -Role of great powers         

            -Germany           

            -Japan’s potential       

                                           -42-


                 NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM 


                                    Tape Subject Log 

                                     (rev. April-2011)

                                                            Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

                -Collapse as great powers      

                -Gen. Charles A. J. M. de Gaulle 

                      -Withdrawal from Algeria      

         -Italy      

         -Germany         

                -Divided nation
                -Willy Brandt
                      -Socialism
                      -Policy toward Eastern Bloc
                      -Anti-Americanism in West Germany
         -US brokering of peace
                -Leonid I. Brezhnev’s goals
                      -Georges J. R. Pompidou, Edward R. G. Heath, Brandt
                      -Division of Europe
                -PRC’s relationship with Europe
                -PRC’s relations with US and Soviet Union


****************************************************************************** 

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3 

[National Security]

[Duration: 2 s ] 



    US-PRC RELATIONS


END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3
******************************************************************************


    US role in world 

         -US brokering of peace 

                -PRC’s relationship with US and Soviet Union 

                       -Restraint    

                -Soviet Union’s relations with US 

                       -US wealth      

                                 -43-

       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. April-2011)

                                                   Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

            -US deterrent
      -Need for US strength
-Soviet Union
      -Toughness
            -History of expansionism
-Western Europe
      -North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO]
            -Dissolution
                   -Soviet Union’s role
            -European Economic Community [EEC]
      -Withdrawal of US forces
            -US Congress
      -Possible negotiations with Warsaw Pact
            -Mutual force reduction
      -Soviet Union’s goals
            -Destruction of NATO
      -Effects of détente       

            -Perceptions of Soviet threat    

            -NATO’s strength             

            -US diplomacy          

                   -Arms reduction         

                   -Trade      

      -President’s meetings with European leaders 

            -Brandt, Pompidou, Giulio Andriotti      

      -Purpose        

            -NATO strength           

      -Warsaw Pact         

-Future
      -Europe’s role
      -US role
            -US strength         

                   -Military       

                   -Leadership         

                   -Balance to Communist threat     

-Great Britain
      -Resolve
      -Heath
                                  -44-

       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. April-2011)

                                                   Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

       -Economic problems
       -Leadership
             -World War I, World War II
-Germany
       -Leadership
-France
-Need for US strength
       -Europe’s lack of resolve
-Life in US
       -Wealth
-Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark
       -President’s visits
       -National goals
             -Youth
             -Cheese         

       -Weakness        

       -Comparison with US          

             -Vietnam War
             -Respect
-Uruguay
       -Significance of citizenship
-South America
       -Extension of Western democracy
       -POWs’ concern
       -Communists’ program
             -US response
                   -Use of military     

             -Land reform

             -Enhanced medical care        

             -Education        

             -US approach         

                   -Freedom
             -Brazil       

                   -Emilio Garrastazu Medici   

                   -Political system

                   -Economic health       

                           -Land reform
                                -45-

       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                         Tape Subject Log
                          (rev. April-2011)

                                                 Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

                  -Medici
            -Land reform, education, health care
                  -Dehumanization
                  -Soviet Union, PRC
                  -Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania
                         -President’s visits
                         -Standard of living
                                -Freedom
-Negotiations with PRC and Soviet Union
     -Economic relations with US
            -Communist leaders’ responsiveness
     -Communist ideology
            -Cadre
     -Russian people
            -Strength, rigor
     -Chinese people
            -Sophistication
     -Value of contact with Communist world
            -Potential for change           

                  -Avoidance of world destruction     

                  -Gradualness            

     -Alternative of US isolation             

            -Anger        

            -Potential for violence            

     -Irrationality in leaders          

            -US presidents          

            -Josev Stalin       

                  -Insanity         

            -Adolf Hitler         

                  -Insanity         

            -US system        

                  -Removal of unstable leaders      

     -Dialogue with Soviet Union                

            -Understanding            

            -Trade       

     -Economic strength of Soviet Union and PRC 

            -Soviet military expenditures         

                                  -46-

       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                           Tape Subject Log
                            (rev. April-2011)

                                                    Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

                  -Consumer goods
            -Soviet industrial productions          

                  -Flynn’s thesis           

                  -Cost            

                  -Comparison with US             

            -Communist exposure to West               

                  -Indoctrination           

                  -Conditions in US             

                  -Western Europe             

                  -Spain             

                           -Gen. Francisco Franco
                           -Poverty
                           -Madrid
                           -President’s welcome during visits
                           -Compared to Budapest
-Popular response to President’s visits to Communist nations
     -Soviet Union and PRC
            -Effects of US strategy in Vietnam

     -Romania         

     -Poland        

     -Hungary          

            -President’s visit as private citizen
            -Youth          

     -Czechoslovakia               

     -Eastern Europe              

            -Concerns for Soviet Union
     -East Germany              

            -Organization              

            -Success of Communism

     -Soviet Union            

            -Leningrad            

            -Kiev        

            -President’s future trip          

                  -End of Vietnam War             

                  -Crowds                

            -Russians’ attitude toward Americans         

                  -World War II            

                                 -47-

       NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          Tape Subject Log
                           (rev. April-2011)

                                                  Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

                         -Cooperation
                   -Brezhnev
-President’s trips to Soviet Union and PRC
      -Improved communications
            -POWs’ reaction
      -Soviet and Chinese magazines for POWs
            -Soviet
                   -Sophistication
            -China
                   -Revolutionary tone
            -Publication quality
                   -Life
            -James Keogh            

                   -United States Information Agency [USIA]       

                   -Time

                   -Effectiveness of Communist propaganda     

            -Prison guards
                   -Discipline
            -Insight into Communist world
-Efficacy of Communist propaganda
      -Latin America          

            -Education          

            -Health care          

            -Land reform

            -Literacy for indoctrination      

      -Communist doctors            

            -Quality        

            -Doctors during France’s rule in Vietnam

      -South Vietnamese programs         

            -Schools         

            -Doctors       

            -Land reform

                   -Thieu
      -Possible U.S. response in Latin America 

            -Radio       

            -Loudspeakers            

                   -Villages in Vietnam
                                               -48-


                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM 


                                         Tape Subject Log 

                                          (rev. April-2011)

                                                               Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)

                        -Television [TV]
                              -Youth
                              -Language classes
                        -Local governments’ role
                        -Ease

The President talked with the White House operator at an unknown time between 5:03 pm and
6:13 pm.

     Request for call

[Conversation No. 891-7A]

[Begin telephone conversation]

[See Conversation No. 44-113]

[End telephone conversation]

     Keogh’s schedule      

         -Travel      

         -Potential meeting with Flynn 


     Flynn’s schedule
          -Joint chiefs of Staff [JCS]

The President talked with Keogh between 6:13 pm and 6:15 pm.

[Conversation No. 891-7B]

[Begin telephone conversation]

[See Conversation No. 44-114]

The President conferred with Flynn.

[Begin conferral]
                                               -49-


                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM 


                                       Tape Subject Log
                                        (rev. April-2011)

                                                            Conversation No. 891-7 (cont’d)


     Flynn’s schedule    

          -Call to Keogh        


[End conferral]

[End telephone conversation]

     Keogh     

         -Reliability   

         -Anticommunism

         -Time-Life   


     US role in world affairs
          -Competition with Communists
                 -Ideas
                 -Military
                       -US strength
                 -Latin America
                 -US ingenuity

     POWs’ experience

     Flynn’s meeting with President
          -Photograph

     Rose Garden           

          -Plants      


     Red River Raiders
          -Invitation to President
                -Reunion
                -Dinner in President’s honor

Flynn and Scowcroft left at 6:21 pm.
                                               -50-


                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM 


                                       Tape Subject Log 

                                        (rev. April-2011)