Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 902 › Conversation 902-005
Nixon, Ziegler & Dean on Watergate and Scapegoat
Thursday, April 19, 1973 · 12:29 PM–12:48 PM ET · Oval Office · 20 min
AI Summary
President Nixon and Ron Ziegler discussed John Dean's recent public statement and a New York Times article suggesting Dean might implicate others in the Watergate scandal. They strategized on how Ziegler should respond to press inquiries, agreeing to emphasize the administration's commitment to finding the truth rather than scapegoats and to fully cooperate with the grand jury. Nixon authorized Ziegler to state that no one would be made a scapegoat, a message Ziegler relayed to Dean. The conversation also briefly touched on a meeting with Jewish leaders regarding Soviet emigration.
- Watergate
- John Dean
- Ronald Ziegler
- Scapegoat
- Grand Jury
- New York Times
- Press Briefing
- Soviet Emigration
Audio
NARA Description
On April 19, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, White House operator, and John W. Dean, III met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:29 pm and 12:48 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 902-005 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 902-005
Date: April 19, 1973
Time: Unknown between 12:29 pm and 12:48 pm
Location: Oval Office
The President and Ronald L. Ziegler entered. This recording began at an unknown time while
the conversation was in progress.
Watergate
-John W. Dean, III
-Statement
-Contents
-Ziegler’s response to possible questions
-Notification of Ziegler
-Christopher Leyen story in the New York Times
-Dean’s activities
-Report
-Meetings with President
-Dean
-Ziegler’s response to possible questions
-Henry E. Petersen’s opinion
-Instructions for Ziegler on telephone call
Ziegler talked with the White House operator at an unknown time between 12:29 pm and 12:48
pm.
[Conversation No. 902-005A]
[Begin telephone conversation]
[See Conversation No. 038-106]
[End telephone conversation]
Dean
Return call
Ziegler’s statement
-President’s authorization
Ziegler talked with Dean at an unknown time between 12:29 pm and 12:48 pm.
Show the rest of the log (57 more lines)
[Conversation No. 902-005B]
[Begin telephone conversation]
[Conversation No. 038-107]
[End telephone conversation]
Watergate
-Ziegler’s conversation with Dean
-Story about Dean
-Magruder [?]
President’s meeting with Jewish leaders
-Soviet Jews
-Ziegler’s forthcoming press briefing
-Soviet Union [USSR]
-Communication
-Exemption
-United States [US] cooperation
-Freedom of emigration
Watergate
-Dean
-President’s public posture
-Conversation with President, March 21, 1973
-President’s reaction
-Dean’s report
-Possible indictment
-Conversations with President concerning Watergate
-President’s previous public statement
-William L. Safire’s column
-Washington Post editorial
-President’s April 19, 1973, conversation with Petersen
-Dean’s role in Watergate
-Immunity
-Corroborative evidence
-Haldeman and Ehrlichman
-Reports
-President
-Ehrlichman and Haldeman
-Ziegler
-President’s August 29, 1972, statement
-Role in investigation after March 21
-E. Howard Hunt, Jr.
-Role in Watergate
-President’s conversation with Petersen
-Haldeman and Ehrlichman
-Grand Jury
-Presidential initiative
-Haldeman and Ehrlichman
-Possible resignations
-Ziegler’s forthcoming press briefing
Ziegler left at 12:48 pm.Transcript (AI-generated)
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Zieglerone or two developments. John Dean issued this statement just shortly a short time ago you may--
NixonYes.
Ziegler"Some may hope or think that I will become a scapegoat in the Watergate case. Anyone who believes this does not know me, it'll be true facts, facts,
NixonThat's a lead, that is. Huh?
ZieglerIt's a direct
ZieglerThat's right, and it's splashed out. It says, "White House Counsel Dean said today he will not allow himself to become scapegoat in this matter." Now,
Zieglerthing I would like to get advice from you on is, whether or not I associate the White House with the statement. I don't I don't think I can.
ZieglerAnd they will press me to do that, but I'm not worried about that. From the standpoint of position,
NixonWhy can't you just say no one's going to be a scapegoat?
NixonHave the right to say listen, no one's going to be a scapegoat.
NixonHe didn't tell you he was going to say that?
ZieglerNo, sir.
NixonDo you think you should communicate with him?
ZieglerI can, but I wanted to talk with you first. It's an interesting
NixonHe's aiming for Ehrlichman and Haldeman.
ZieglerYes, sir, and we've talked about that. That's why I've raised it with you.
ZieglerThe Christopher Lydon piece in the New York Times today was moved by his former brother-in-law. I do know that.
ZieglerAnd the basic thrust of that is that White House counsel described as alone, but confident, and as he prepares to face Senate and grand jury inquiries.
ZieglerIt goes on to say that "Mr. Dean has intended has intimated he can show his own innocence of wrongdoing and guide investigators to other members of the President's inner circle," i.e., Haldeman, probably, means, and Ehrlichman.
Ziegler"According to close friends of Mr. Dean, there never was a full, written report to the President," which
NixonThat's not disputed.
ZieglerYes, sir, we've never said it was. Yes, sir.
Ziegler"on Mr. Dean's investigation. The same source said that Mr. Dean never met with Mr. Nixon to talk about the Watergate case until last month, shortly before the President came upon serious charges and started the new investigation he reported yesterday."
ZieglerIt's an interesting paragraph, because it says, "last month, shortly before the President came upon a series of new charges, and stated the new investigation he reported yesterday,"
NixonStarted.
Zieglerwhich would have been about the 21st, which is true.
ZieglerIt was that report that led to the previous statements.
ZieglerAll right. Okay. So, I think the posture I should take, I do have a notification from Petersen, Henry Petersen,
Zieglerthat I should not comment.
NixonHe's already led you.
ZieglerYes, sir. I've I've more or less asked that I'd be held to that, because it might prejudice the judicial system.
NixonRight. Why not just say, reaffirm the President's statement.
Nixonthat is uh there no one no one's going to be made a scapegoat.
NixonNo one's going to be made The President stated was clear, no one's going to be made a scapegoat. And no one, no matter how no one, no one,
NixonAll he means is no one will be made a scapegoat.
ZieglerThe objective here is not
Nixonto find a scapegoat,
ZieglerThe objective is to get to the bottom of this.
NixonThat this is not to find a scapegoat, but to find the truth.
NixonFind the truth.
NixonAnd total cooperation with the grand jury.
Nixonachieve, can only achieve, can only be gained by total cooperation with the grand jury.
NixonNow.
ZieglerThey will ask whether or not I will express confidence in Dean again or anything. No.
NixonNo comment. Absolutely not.
NixonI wouldn't comment on any individual at all. No, you can't go beyond that.
NixonI think that scape hitting the scapegoat iron's pretty good, Ron.
ZieglerI I can do that, fine.
NixonDo you think you ought to call Dean and tell him you're saying that so he won't say
ZieglerI will. He'll say fine, frankly.
NixonWhy don't you call him now?
ZieglerI shouldn't I shouldn't find out I wouldn't want to refer to this.
NixonOh, no, no, no. I wouldn't Don't say you're in my office.
ZieglerYeah.
NixonJust say that's what you plan to say if asked.
NixonJust no no one is and that's the attitude here.
ZieglerOn this one, sir, would you mind reaching him for me? I mean, can I just dial the call from your office, please?
NixonSure.
OperatorHang on, and I'll call you back.
NixonWhat about this? What about
ZieglerNow the press, it's a lot easier to say that
ZieglerHi, John.
ZieglerI saw your statement.
ZieglerNo, I don't think so. I'm going to
ZieglerAll right. Now I've got I thank you for doing that, but I'm going to we established yesterday the same position that I took yesterday.
ZieglerOne thing, if they ask me about the scapegoat thing, I'm going to say, and I've talked to the President about this, he's authorized me to do it, is to say that
Zieglerour objective, based on the President's statement the other day, is not to find scapegoats, but to find the truth, and that we're kind of fully cooperating with the grand jury process. And then, then go on to
ZieglerYeah.
ZieglerNow, we've the President's made a meeting with Jewish leaders, so I'm
ZieglerAll right. You at home?
ZieglerYou're in the office. Okay. Good, John.
ZieglerRight.
NixonWhat did he say?
ZieglerHe said, "Good, Ron."
NixonHell, finally, what was what's that? The reason he's this story broke on him, it's not and he came out of the White House.
ZieglerNo, that's correct.
NixonOkay, what else do you That's about the right position, Ron, for you.
ZieglerI think so. Yes, for today.
NixonStick right to it.
ZieglerPunch hard and breathe easy.
NixonRight.
ZieglerI want to say a little something about the Jewish leader thing. Confirm that you met with them, to
Zieglerlet them know about this communication that the Soviets had informed us that they were exempting the Jewish citizens from that the
NixonThe President gave assurance that he would continue to work for the goal of
NixonWhere did you do that? The big wave of immigration.
ZieglerOkay. On this scene, Mr. President, I just two comments.
ZieglerI don't know, practically, everything involved there, but
Zieglercertainly, your posture at this time is
Zieglerone of finding new information as a result of being misled.
NixonThat's right.
ZieglerAnd by Dean.
ZieglerAnd I think we have to be very careful in our decisions not to allow events to shift us off of that posture.
NixonUh-huh.
ZieglerNow, Dean, in my mind, as I said the other day, whatever card he plays
Zieglercannot be credible if the position of his having misled and provided, if not misleading information, partial information which led to the fact of being misled, that is discredited,
Zieglerbecause the fact is that when he sat down with you on the 21st,
Ziegleryour assessment of his report and your assessment of his inability to prepare a report at Camp David.
NixonWell, is that after he went to Camp David the 21st?
ZieglerNo. He came and talked to you first on the 21st.
NixonThat's right. That's the first time I ever
ZieglerYou sent him to Camp David to say, "Okay, John, put it down on paper." Your motive for doing that
Zieglerwas to find out what he was talking about. Have him put it down, if there is new information.
Zieglerfurther information. But it was during this period, from the 21st through the 17th, that in your mind, you drew the conclusion that you had been misled, and therefore, the statements you made,
NixonRight.
Zieglerthe statements the White House made were was based on incomplete information. And if John Dean is indicted, or if he is charged with pre- uh -bugging knowledge, indeed, you were basing your statements on improper information provided to you as a result of Dean's assurances, your counsel, who had been, according to your awareness, very much involved in investigating were there any members of the White House staff, administration, involved.
NixonMm-hmm.
ZieglerThe initiative is very much the result of the statement put out the other day in our camp, on our side, in terms of meeting this problem, uh, exemplified by comments by others, uh, exemplified even by Well, Bill Safire, in his column today, said made the same point.
NixonIs he writing for the [New York] Times now?
ZieglerYeah, right.
ZieglerThe Post editorial, even in a roundabout way today, made made the point. I don't know what that means except that they did point it out point out that you are moving to not commit the presidency to be, uh, hammered by, uh,
NixonThat's right.
Zieglerthis process.
NixonSo, all I observe in the Campbell situation who was just Uh, see, the problem, Ron, the with with in effect saying uh I had Dean's Dean's line is a pretty rough line in a sense, and it's one in which I talked to Petersen this morning, and uh
NixonI think you should say that I have no more reports to distribute, Petersen.
ZieglerNo. It might be better to say that later.
NixonSay that later, yeah. Ha- have that back in the other one. Okay. I've been I'll just say later on, these may be it's a daily report to check Petersen on any further developments.
ZieglerThat will start the race.
NixonDean's line, right, in order for it is that he was just a messenger boy. And that uh he was the agent, in effect. That's why he's trying to get him immunity. They will not give him immunity unless he's they can get corroborated evidence to to nail somebody else higher up. They don't have that yet.
ZieglerMhm.
NixonThe uh he's obviously firing at Haldeman and Ehrlichman. And that I asked today, the question just this: What if they ask Petersen pretty bluntly, "Haldeman, Ehrlichman, should they be, for example, would that help you getting Dean's [unintelligible]?" "Would it help Paul and Ehrlichman? Would it help uh Dean on his stuff?" "Desire for immunity?" He said, "No."
ZieglerMhm.
NixonSo, the problem there is this, I suppose: that that that an outline that this is Dean, is now with his threats and so forth, he's basically threatened. He's obviously desperate. So, I suppose he'll say, well, he was not allowed to make his report to the President, and so forth, which is not true, of course, because he could have any time. He did report through Ehrlichman and Haldeman, you know, I mean.
ZieglerSure.
NixonHe did, actually. Which is normal. And he reported to you, too, didn't he?
ZieglerWhich is natural.
ZieglerMhm.
NixonFor example, when you made those statements, didn't you call Dean and talk with him?
ZieglerOf course, I did. He gave all of my guidance for them.
NixonYou did? Of course.
ZieglerI mean, we talked about it, but only after I had checked it with Dean.
NixonWith Dean, yeah.
ZieglerAnd, therefore, when I got out and made my press statements, it was based Did Was that based on a talk with you, or somebody else, or how was that?
ZieglerNo, that was based on discuss- the guidance went in, I think, from John Ehrlichman. But it was prepared for him, uh, you know, through the Buchanan process and, uh, and by Dean. Your statement
NixonSure.
Zieglerthat you made on the 29th and afterwards was based upon the same information that I used as a White House spokesman, based on information from the Counsel to the President.
NixonWe asked the Counsel for specific reports.
ZieglerWell, that's right.
NixonThere's never The What do you think he's trying to prove by saying he didn't have an oral or a written report? That that that he wasn't asked to do a report, that it wasn't his job to do a report? No, I think what he's trying to say here is that he also had a part in putting into motion the investigation after the 21st.
NixonOh, he did?
ZieglerMhm.
NixonYes, sir. I'd give him credit here. Goddamn right, he did. He said, "Look, they're kind of It's like, for example, Hunt and this bunch are trying to blackmail us, and we've just we've just got to get this thing done." And so I agreed.
ZieglerWell, but, you could also- I- I understand. Give him credit. Depending on the game he's playing now, you could also at that point, which you did, based on what he said to you, questioned, "Why in the hell, are you sitting down on the 21st, after this process has gone on, why am I finding out about it now?" And immediately then proceeded to find out what on earth was happening in this place, or wherever, in the post- uh, uh, uh, crime period, or the post-arrest period.
NixonYeah. He will also try to say the he'll try to bring up things that he did as Counsel prior to that.
NixonWhat if he did? What does that mean? What if he did, anyway? Well, damn, he's probably aware that they What they did with the Hunt business and all that kind of crap that they worked on that period. Mhm. People can thrash all they want, but how credible is it?
ZieglerWell, depends on what direction we go here. I I have a feeling that uh
NixonYou think the direction should be to discredit Dean? You think they're going to have to, to stay in office at some time? Is that right?
ZieglerThat's my sense. At least this much, depending on what direction he goes.
NixonYeah.
NixonSeems to be in a pretty rough direction.
ZieglerWell, this statement today clearly My hope that uh anyone escape don't does, you know, here, two facts clearly indicates he has made a commitment to uh the, "I was a messenger boy" line. Now, in carrying that out, it's unlikely that he'll get into the other stuff,
Zieglerbut he might only to solidify the fact that he was a messenger. Another's role in that.
NixonYeah.
NixonWell, I think you're going to find out The way you see it, you know, I think we ought to take their meeting, John, our other leaders today. You got to think about it. Nothing is going to devolve today or tomorrow, the Grand Jury. I think it's tempting that out, so you won't have anything, believe it, and it'll be all right, so we're covered that way for tomorrow. John, we all need
ZieglerYes, sir.
ZieglerI'm not, I mean, I think it would be very good for you to, uh, do that. And, absolutely, there is no need for you to do one thing in terms of news flow. We can get the news going out to, uh,
NixonYeah, rather than do anything on this, we just can't react to every, yeah, every little story that comes out, Ron.
ZieglerThat's correct.
ZieglerThe met- I think, Mr. President, in this, the the the basic decision that we have to make is: Are we going to get out in front of this and separate the presidency away from it, Yeah. at his initiative, or are we going to take the thing as a Bob and John, let's put it this way,
NixonBob, particularly, feels that the the other state of him and John resign on the ground He said that's going to hurt very much, too. And it's going to hurt me. I don't mean just I said, "Why do you?" Uh I said, John Bob spoke today, "Bring out a lot of information later." See, my point is, if they would get out, maybe that would reduce some of the Dean fire, see my point?
ZieglerI get your point.
Also recorded on April 19, 1973
- 038-106 12:29 PM · 1 min — Ronald L. Ziegler, White House operator, and President Richard M. Nixon talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 12:29 pm and 12:48 pm.
- 038-107 12:29 PM · 1 min — Ronald L. Ziegler and John W. Dean, III talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 12:29 pm and 12:48 pm.
- 902-006 12:48 PM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:48 pm and 1:03 pm.
- 902-007 12:48 PM · 21 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:48 pm and 1:03 pm.
- 902-008 12:48 PM · 6 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 12:48 pm and 1:03 pm.
- 902-009 1:03 PM · 25 min — President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman met in the Oval Office of the White House from 1:03 pm to 1:30 pm.
- 902-010 1:30 PM · 29 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 1:30 pm and 1:36 pm.
- 902-013 1:30 PM · 2 min — unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 1:30 pm and 1:36 pm.
Related conversations
- Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Watergate and Public relations March 19, 1973 · 2 min
- Nixon phone call with Petersen on Watergate and Grand Jury April 18, 1973 · 5 min
- Nixon phone call with Petersen on Watergate scandal and Grand jury April 20, 1973 · 8 min
- Nixon phone call with Haldeman on Watergate scandal and John Dean April 25, 1973 · 17 min
- Haldeman phone call on Watergate and John Dean March 29, 1973 · 7 min
- Nixon phone call with Ehrlichman on Watergate scandal and John W. Dean III April 8, 1973 · 7 min
Cite this conversation
Conversation 902-005, April 19, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/902-005 (accessed November 1, 2026).