Conversation 001-091

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Hello.

Dr. Kissinger.

Mr. President.

Hello, Henry.

I was wondering how they, uh, have you checked in to see how they played the Chinese thing today?

Oh, yeah, it was tremendous.

It was the lead item on every...

I didn't see it myself.

I was with Bob Griffin, but I talked to Hague.

Yeah?

But he says it's been a tremendous thing on television.

It's been the lead item on every television thing.

Rather than Vietnam, for a change.

It's gone on and on and on.

And I found it helpful also with these Michigan editors.

How'd it go with them?

Well, they asked the usual questions about Vietnam, and I just said, look, we know what we're doing, and there are always more things going on, and they were very intrigued with China.

They asked the usual questions about Vietnam.

Do we think the South Vietnamese can stand on their feet?

But they were not hostile.

yeah they just had heard so much stuff about the vietnamese not being able to make it and so on and so forth yeah but this is one thing we're sure that while we're not as confident about the vietnamese as some may be we're we're a hell of a lot more confident that the press has led them to believe

You see?

That's right.

These are really, these were many of them were small news, small town newsmen, Muskegon and Kalamazoo and Flint and stuff like that.

And they were on the whole very eager to, they weren't asking hostile questions.

They were asking informational questions.

Right.

We spent about a third of the time on Vietnam, a third on China, and then the third was miscellaneous stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Now, on the China thing, what we have to realize, Henry, is that in terms of the American public opinion, it is still against communist China, you know.

Right.

So we're not making any votes for this.

But the intellectuals will worry.

They'll worry about something.

But as we know, as we knew from the October 7th thing, it doesn't mean that we get much from them.

It'll just worry them and think that something else is up.

And the whole thing has got to be played in terms that we don't... How about the Taiwan thing?

That's sort of worrisome.

I don't know a damn thing we do about those.

What Taiwan thing?

Well, I mean, they're concerned about what we've said.

Right, but they haven't expressed it yet, have they?

I don't think so.

Oh, I think there was something in the paper indicating that Taiwan was concerned.

Well, but that's inevitable.

They have to say that.

And Bob Murphy going out there, I think, will, of course, they'll be concerned.

It is bound to be a worrisome thing to them.

Oh, Henry, the thing is, an historic change is going to take place.

It has to take place.

And it better take place when they've got a friend here rather than when they've got an enemy here.

Because it's a tragedy that it has to happen to Chung at the end of his life.

Yeah, but...

But we have to be cold about it.

Yeah, we have to do what's best for us.

And in the long term, it is essential for the values that he represents that there be continuity in our government here.

Yes, and that he has here an administration that is not going to

just stand by and let Taiwan go down the drain.

We're trying to hold our position as best we can.

Exactly.

For every reason, we've got to have a diversion from Vietnam in this country for a while.

That's the point, isn't it?

Yeah.

And we need it for our game with the Soviets.

Yeah, yeah.

uh i mean it would be absolutely impossible we would be doing the soviets the greatest favor if we rejected this overture and we would get nothing for it it would uh it would lead to tougher relations between us and and the soviets rather than easier that's right that's right that's what they'd like for us to do they'd like for us to sort of slap the chinese in the face but we're not doing it we're

We're not going overboard, but we're saying, well, they open the door, we'll open the door.

That's right.

And actually now one would have to expect a hiatus of a few weeks.

Oh, of course, this is going to happen for a while, but that's all right.

Just let this rest a while.

Let people, you know, mutter around about it for a while.

And of course, with some luck...

uh we'll get some nipple on the soviet front now yes we might why doesn't even luck so much it really logically ought to happen it ought to happen logically that's right if they are all logical they're damn well better or they're a lot more rigid than we stupid i mean there's nothing new they're going to learn about salt they're either going to move on that or not the other one summit we've been kicking around for a year i talked to uh

Coulson and I told him to do what he could, uh, uh, doze, and then said that both Case and Brooke were, were making speeches in the floor today about a necessary, uh, uh, date and all that sort of thing, and I said to get over to Brooke and tell him to keep shut for a month, you know.

That's all you can ask of Brooke.

Right.

And, uh, without promising a thing, just say, look, just tell him, just wait a month, and then, then wait, you know what I mean?

You can't expect him to do more than that.

Right.

but uh it actually doesn't make any difference what case and brooks say because they've been saying that for a year true but if we could uh just get a few of our own to quiet down and uh the uh it's very important and uh the others the other thing as i said is too and you've got to talk about this too is that the whole thing of the adult expressed is the

The POW wives, we must not let them go off on a tangent here.

But that's why we've got to keep that residual force thing alive.

I know that, but I meant they've got to not bite on one of these withdrawal programs or something like that, you see.

I don't think they will.

Well, don't be too sure.

Just remember everybody's working on them.

And we've got to just watch that as closely as we can.

Well, I'm seeing them again in the middle of May, and if there are any dangerous signs, I'll see them before.

Yeah, but we don't want them to move before then.

You think, uh...

So, but what makes anyone think they're moving?

Well, I, uh... Dole was concerned about it, you know.

He sees and hears from them and so forth, and, uh... We, uh... Because, boy, we just don't want these...

These gals who have so much at stake...

and their husbands and so forth.

They just can't throw it down the drain just for that.

That's right.

Well, McGovern has been after them.

I know that, and I don't support...

I wouldn't be surprised if the president also were.

He's working on them, that's right.

But let's keep our eyes very closely peeled on that, and in the meantime, we'll work the other things as well as we can.

Okay, Henry, thank you.

Right, Mr. President.