Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 2 › Conversation 002-026

Nixon, Kissinger & Sanchez on People's Republic of China and Vietnam War

Wednesday, April 21, 1971 · 7:47 PM–7:54 PM ET · White House Telephone · 7 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.; Sanchez, ManoloConversation002-026 on Tape 2 (tape position 00:38:10–00:45:17)StartWednesday, April 21, 1971 at 7:47 PMEndWednesday, April 21, 1971 at 7:54 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 002-026 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Henry Kissinger discussed a Tass report regarding Sino-Soviet tensions and the strategic implications for U.S. foreign policy. Kissinger shared an unsolicited, optimistic appraisal from Sir Robert Thompson, who argued that recent military operations in Laos had crippled North Vietnamese offensive capabilities through 1972 and highlighted the professional improvement of South Vietnamese forces. Additionally, the two reviewed concerns regarding potential troop withdrawals of Korean forces in Vietnam and noted a positive trend in declining casualty reports.

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Transcript (AI-generated)

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Yes?
Dr. Kissinger.
All right.
Ready, sir.
Hello?
Mr. President.
Hi, Henry.
Sorry to disturb you.
It's all right.
No, I'm not doing anything.
Well, two things.
One, there's a lengthy article that has distributed on this Chinese relation to us, which is very interesting.
They're saying that what China is trying to do is to get the United States and the Soviet Union into a war with each other.
so that they could emerge as the great superpower, but we wouldn't fall for that.
But they wouldn't fall for that.
Mm-hmm.
And very heard.
Very what?
They seem to act very heard.
Yes.
Very interesting, yeah.
And I just thought you might like to know that.
Well, it's, what do you think it means?
Well, I think I still am fairly optimistic that the Soviets will be fairly forthcoming.
If not that, they're going to go very tough.
I mean, they've got to break out one way or the other.
Yeah.
Also, I've had a letter from... Just a minute.
Just a minute.
Yeah.
It's raining, sir.
Raining?
Okay, we skip it.
Yeah, go ahead.
I've had a letter from Sir Robert Thompson, which is very optimistic about how things are going.
Oh good.
What does he say?
Well, he says that he doesn't think that the North Vietnamese can launch any major attack through 1972.
He considers Laos was a great success.
And I have to take him seriously because he said the same thing last year right after Cambodia.
And I thought he was exaggerating.
It turned out he was right.
I'm having it summarized for you and soon for you.
Well, he certainly is going to give us his best judgment on this.
I didn't even ask him for it.
He volunteered it.
Here it is.
He says...
Well, he is very violent about our critics.
Is he?
About our critics.
What did he say about them?
Well, he said they don't realize that it was successful.
Many of the critics in the United States do not realize that we are not dealing with the Arvin of four years ago, but with a new breed.
They are now good professional soldiers and in combat commands.
lower down, who have the training, the experience, the determination to match anything that the North Vietnamese can provide.
And he said... Coming from him, that's quite significant.
Exactly.
And well, about Laos, he says, this brings one to the Laos operation, which have been the scene of some of the toughest fighting and worst reporting that I can remember.
And worst reporting, isn't it interesting?
I certainly think that the operation has achieved the shorter term tactical aim of cutting the trail in addition to destroying guns already there during what should have been its peak operating period.
Publicly, one may have to be a bit cautious, but I would say that there's no possibility of the North Vietnamese mounting or sustaining any offensive against South Vietnam right through 1972, except in the immediate vicinity of the DMC.
It's going to be a case just like Cambodia last year of not seeing the real effects for several months.
I see.
Well, it's good to get that kind of appraisal.
And repeat, it's unsolicited.
That's right.
And he was there when it all happened.
He sure was, yeah.
We are having this breakfast, Mr. President, with... Blair, yeah.
And he will hit you about...
pulling out the Koreans.
And I also think that that is an unnecessary strain to put on him.
Yeah.
They aren't very good, but they're at least holding some area.
And they're there, yes, that's right.
Now, Laird has the argument that we can get South Vietnamese more cheaply, but that's a purely theoretical argument.
There aren't more South Vietnamese to be drafted.
And you don't have to rule on that, but we have a review going on of the whole strategy.
And you could just defer your decision until that review is completed.
Sure, I'll do that.
I would just be careful not to say anything that he can use to pull them out.
Because we are pulling things out just about as fast as they go now.
I'll say we are.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How are the casualties running this week?
This week they seem to be lower, Mr. President.
These are incomplete daily reports, but they seem to be lower this week.
They're above 50, actually, going to be announced tomorrow, I think 56, for the week just concluded, and I think they'll be significantly lower next week.
I know.
56.
Well, that's, why is that?
Because of the... Well, that includes those 11.
Yeah.
It'd be 56, you say.
I've asked Moore to give me some reason, some feel for why the casualties are running as they are.
Of course, there are always some wounded that are left from a military operation.
But they'll run 56, you say, next week, this week?
This week.
In the week after this, I think they'll be lower.
Well, we're in that week now.
That's what I meant.
Oh, in the week at which we are, they'll be much lower than 56.
It would seem so.
Oh, yes.
Well, we had on Sunday, there were none at all.
And I just have to look at the daily figures, Mr. President.
I don't have them at my fingertips.
Well, we can't tell.
Let's see.
Thursday, we've got three more days yet.
That's right.
Mm-hmm.
Well, the drop may occur next week then rather than this.
Right.
This week, of course, it won't be reflected, but next week it might be.
That's right, Mr. Brett.
So it would be announced the day of your press conference, which wouldn't be bad.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's right.
Well, good.
Don't worry, we'll handle Laird with great caution.
Right, Mr. Brett.
Okay.
I'll be there in the morning.

NARA Description

On April 21, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, Henry A. Kissinger, and Manolo Sanchez talked on the telephone from 7:47 pm to 7:54 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 002-026 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 2-26

Date: April 21, 1971
Time: 7:47 pm - 7:54 pm
Location: White House Telephone

Henry A. Kissinger talked with the President.

     Tass article on People's Republic of China [PRC]-US relations
          -Contents
          -Negotiations with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR]

The President conferred with Manolo Sanchez at an unknown time between 7:47 pm and 7:54
pm.

     Weather

     Kissinger's letter from Sir Robert Thompson
          -Vietnam
          -Laos
          -Cambodia
          -Administration critics
          -Army of Republic of Vietnam [ARVN]
                -Capabilities
          -Laos
                -Operations

     Vietnam
          -Koreans
               -Melvin R. Laird
               -Removal of troops

                                                                                               Back to Top

       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542

*****************************************************************

[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number
LPRN-T-MDR-2014-012. Segment partially declassified with 05s cleared for release and 01s
remains exempt as 002-026-w002 per Executive Order 13526, 3.3(b)(1) on 08/23/2017.
Archivist: AY]
[National Security]
[002-026-w002]
[Duration: 5s]

     Vietnam
          -Koreans

*****************************************************************

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2
[National Security]
[002-026-w002]
[Duration: 1s]

     INTELLIGENCE

END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2

*****************************************************************

     Vietnam
          -Koreans
          -Removal of troops
               -Nguyen Van Thieu’s disapproval

*****************************************************************

       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542

     Vietnam
          -Koreans
               -Nguyen Van Thieu
               -South Vietnamese troops
          -Casualties
               -Adm. Thomas H. Moorer

Also recorded on April 22, 1971

  • 486-001 9:41 AM · 57 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Henry A. Kissinger, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Robert J. Dole, Anne L. Armstrong, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:41 am to 10:41 am.
  • 486-002 10:41 AM · 1 hr 15 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Gerald R. Ford, John W. Byrnes, Elliot L. Richardson, Clark MacGregor, Kenneth R. Cole, Jr., John R. Price, Jr., Stephen B. Bull, Manolo Sanchez, John B. Connally, Ronald L. Ziegler, Fred Maroon, and Stan Wayman met in the Oval Office of the White House from 10:41 am to 12:01 pm.
  • 486-003 12:01 PM · 1 hr 36 min — President Richard M. Nixon, John B. Connally, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House from 12:01 pm to 1:43 pm.
  • 486-004 1:43 PM · 20 sec — United States Secret Service agents met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 1:43 pm and 2:38 pm.
  • 486-005 2:40 PM · 39 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Stephen B. Bull, Ronald L. Ziegler, William P. Rogers, Fred Maroon, and Stan Wayman met in the Oval Office of the White House from 2:40 pm to 3:35 pm.
  • 486-006 3:35 PM · 4 min — Manolo Sanchez and unknown person(s) met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 3:35 pm and 3:41 pm.
  • 486-007 3:41 PM · 54 min — President Richard M. Nixon, William P. Rogers, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, Manolo Sanchez, and Stephen B. Bull met in the Oval Office of the White House from 3:41 pm to 4:35 pm.
  • 486-008 4:35 PM · 17 sec — United States Secret Service agents met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 4:35 pm and 4:52 pm.

All 13 conversations from April 22, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 002-026, April 22, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/002-026 (accessed October 12, 2026).