{"conversationCode":"002-095","tapeNumber":2,"conversationNumber":95,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-002-095","startDateTime":"1971-05-05T22:13:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1971-05-05T23:45:00.000Z","startDate":"5-May-1971","startTime":"6:13 PM","endDate":"5-May-1971","endTime":"7:45 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"estimated","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.;","description":"On May 5, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 6:13 pm and 7:45 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 002-095 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":1,"chronRelease":"First Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"5-Oct-1999","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 2-95\n\nDate: May 5, 1971\nTime: Unknown between 6:13 pm and 7:45 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n                                                                                               Back to Top\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\nThe President talked with Henry A. Kissinger.\n\n     Weather\n\n     Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR]\n         -Alexander M. Haig, Jr.\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number\nLPRN-T-MDR-2014-012. Segment declassified on 12/01/2017. Archivist: AY]\n[National Security]\n[002-095-w001]\n[Duration: 18s]\n\n     Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR]\n         -Meeting\n         -Pakistan\n         -Robert Digiorgio?\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n     Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR]\n         -Vladimir S. Semyonov's Meeting with Gerard C. Smith\n         -Haig's Conversation with Anatoliy F. Dobrynin\n         -Summit Meeting\n         -Announcement\n         -Timing\n         -Kissinger's Conversation with Dobrynin\n               -Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty [SALT]\n         -Leonid I. Brezhnev\n         -Smith\n         -Congress\n         -Allies\n\n                                                                                               Back to Top\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number\nLPRN-T-MDR-2014-012. Segment declassified on 12/01/2017. Archivist: AY]\n[National Security]\n[002-095-w003]\n[Duration: 33s]\n\n     People's Republic of China [PRC]\n          -Pakistan\n          -Kissinger's conversation with unnamed diplomat\n          -Message to People's Republic of China [PRC]\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n     US relations with People's Republic of China [PRC]\n          -Department of State\n          -State Department Statements\n          -US-PRC relations\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number\nLPRN-T-MDR-2014-012. Segment declassified on 12/01/2017. Archivist: AY]\n[National Security]\n[002-095-w004]\n[Duration: 57s]\n\n     People's Republic of China [PRC]\n          -Kissinger's meeting with Joseph S. Farland\n                -Kissinger’s message\n                      -Joseph S. Farland deliver to Agha Mohammad Yahya Khan\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n                                                                                               Back to Top\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n[A transcript of the following portion of this conversation was prepared under court order from\nDecember 1978 through March 1979 for Special Access 8, Ronald V. Dellums, et al. v. James M.\nPowell, et al., No. 71-2271. The National Archives and Records Administration produced this\ntranscript. The National Archives does not guarantee its accuracy.]\n\n[End of transcript]\n\n     Honor America Day\n\n     Hardhats\n          -Kissinger's conversation with unknown woman on Nelson A. Rockefeller's staff\n          -Peter J. Brennan\n          -Charles W. Colson\n\n     Vietnam\n          -Kissinger's forthcoming meeting with prisoners of war [POWs] families\n          -Negotiations\n          -Kissinger's role\n          -Maj. Gen. James D. (“Don”) Hughes\n          -Vernon A. Walters\n          -Announcement\n\n     PRC\n            -Announcement\n                -Timing\n\n     Volunteer army\n         -Draft\n         -Joint Chiefs of Staff [JCS]\n         -Administration's policy","filename":["002-095.mp3"],"tapeStart":"03:19:54","tapeEnd":"03:33:25","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Kissinger, Henry A."],"prevCode":"002-094","nextCode":"002-096","transcript":[{"start":0.27,"end":2.31,"text":"Hello."},{"start":2.33,"end":3.01,"text":"How's your weather, Henry?"},{"start":3.03,"end":3.35,"text":"Pretty good?"},{"start":3.37,"end":3.95,"text":"Oh, it's perfect."},{"start":5.28,"end":7.76,"text":"Good."},{"start":7.78,"end":9.54,"text":"Everything's going well, you know."},{"start":13.31,"end":14.49,"text":"Henry's had a number of developments today."},{"start":14.51,"end":15.44,"text":"No, he was out today over at CIA."},{"start":15.46,"end":16.54,"text":"I didn't get a chance to talk to him."},{"start":34.79,"end":56.99,"text":"Right."},{"start":57.01,"end":57.09,"text":"Mhm."},{"start":59.62,"end":75.45,"text":"Actually, there's no say."},{"start":75.47,"end":76.03,"text":"They can take that position."},{"start":76.05,"end":76.89,"text":"We take ours and then we see what happens."},{"start":76.91,"end":76.99,"text":"Yes."},{"start":77.01,"end":78.83,"text":"And then he said they recommended the destruction of May 28th and three assemblies in July."},{"start":78.85,"end":79.19,"text":"It's really good."},{"start":84.29,"end":95.53,"text":"Thank you, Mr. President."},{"start":95.55,"end":96.17,"text":"I kneel from our point of view."},{"start":96.19,"end":96.29,"text":"I do."},{"start":96.31,"end":97.03,"text":"Because we get the announcement out."},{"start":97.05,"end":98,"text":"And for six weeks, everybody would be spinning."},{"start":98.02,"end":99.58,"text":"But no matter what happens, they'll have to wait till these people reassemble."},{"start":99.6,"end":99.7,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":99.72,"end":101.08,"text":"And he doesn't need to put out the announcement of the two of those."},{"start":121.38,"end":138.27,"text":"But Haig called to bring it in, did he?"},{"start":138.29,"end":138.69,"text":"Yeah, at my request."},{"start":138.71,"end":139.59,"text":"I told him, this thing doesn't have to stop."},{"start":139.61,"end":140.69,"text":"I said, you know, I just want to give him hell anyway."},{"start":140.71,"end":140.81,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":140.83,"end":143.4,"text":"And I said, look, they have, uh, they have manned, you have, in terms of attitude, it's a pleasant if you have manned, isn't it?"},{"start":143.42,"end":143.54,"text":"Right."},{"start":143.56,"end":145.72,"text":"And I said, you know, won't any of these things in other places, if you have something to say, say it to us."},{"start":145.74,"end":145.9,"text":"Correct."},{"start":153.44,"end":173.65,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":173.67,"end":174.15,"text":"Don't give him too much."},{"start":174.17,"end":175.07,"text":"Well, then... Well, we'll handle something."},{"start":175.09,"end":177.98,"text":"Well, at least I've told Hank to call all the departments and tell them to get recording cables to get known to the most restricted circulation."},{"start":178,"end":178.12,"text":"Right."},{"start":178.14,"end":179.02,"text":"And then he promised us an answer by Monday."},{"start":179.04,"end":179.16,"text":"I see."},{"start":179.18,"end":179.46,"text":"On the summit."},{"start":179.48,"end":180.24,"text":"Not on the summit, but on the assault."},{"start":180.26,"end":180.38,"text":"Right."},{"start":180.4,"end":181.42,"text":"And he said his personal opinion has been positive."},{"start":183.8,"end":202.95,"text":"Cabrinha thought that."},{"start":202.97,"end":203.39,"text":"And that's fine, too."},{"start":203.41,"end":206.07,"text":"They've had a few other little, I noticed, reports that they're sort of saying that Brezhnev's speech indicates a more positive line."},{"start":206.09,"end":207.41,"text":"Oh, they have to come in that way, Mr. President, or go very hard."},{"start":207.44,"end":208.32,"text":"I don't think they're ready to go very hard."},{"start":208.34,"end":208.46,"text":"Right."},{"start":210.4,"end":232,"text":"I see."},{"start":232.03,"end":233.17,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":233.19,"end":233.65,"text":"Well, that's all right."},{"start":233.67,"end":234.85,"text":"Let Smith think he accomplished something, too."},{"start":234.87,"end":236.17,"text":"Oh, sure."},{"start":236.19,"end":236.45,"text":"Right, right."},{"start":236.47,"end":236.57,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":244.85,"end":251.86,"text":"Yeah, I suppose so, but unless they're ready to make it earlier, we should do it earlier."},{"start":251.88,"end":269.2,"text":"There may be a reason why we want to do it a little earlier, because of the vote that's coming up in the Congress, but that's all right."},{"start":269.22,"end":272.62,"text":"If we can do it, I think that in three days of getting there, and just being that long, too, you know, we have to notify the U.S. and the U.S. and the U.S. and the U.S."},{"start":272.64,"end":272.76,"text":"Right."},{"start":272.78,"end":273,"text":"Good, good."},{"start":306.31,"end":319.52,"text":"Yes, which of course should not have been made because they were not consistent with my view, just saying nothing."},{"start":319.74,"end":322.61,"text":"They aren't going to say anything more."},{"start":322.63,"end":334.5,"text":"And the State Department statements probably didn't do any harm anyway because we had to reassure the Chinese, we've got to play a hard game with them too."},{"start":334.52,"end":335.36,"text":"Right."},{"start":396.19,"end":424.22,"text":"What's the reaction of the people out there?"},{"start":424.24,"end":424.6,"text":"Is it really good?"},{"start":424.62,"end":424.98,"text":"Even the Liberals?"},{"start":425,"end":425.3,"text":"How about both?"},{"start":425.32,"end":426.04,"text":"They approve of our arresting Billy?"},{"start":427.02,"end":444.27,"text":"Oh yeah, I know him well."},{"start":444.29,"end":444.61,"text":"He's a good guy."},{"start":456.45,"end":482.05,"text":"They thought we were doing the right thing, being friends."},{"start":482.07,"end":484.74,"text":"Larry Kennedy announced today he's going to have an investigation of police with rescue people that were out, were not really guilty."},{"start":484.76,"end":486.02,"text":"I feel, I really think he is playing to an audience of his own."},{"start":486.49,"end":500.1,"text":"Well, maybe he's just trying to grab the left, the squabble."},{"start":500.12,"end":501.8,"text":"I mean, I don't think he can build up to that, but that's not to do with the oddity."},{"start":501.82,"end":502.61,"text":"He hasn't done any such thing in any..."},{"start":502.63,"end":503.99,"text":"But in any event, the whacking of pieces you run into is what the..."},{"start":504.91,"end":521.84,"text":"What about Voyager?"},{"start":521.86,"end":523.23,"text":"The back of the military action is one of absolute outrageous again."},{"start":523.25,"end":525.11,"text":"To take somebody from the east and then send him to Turkey, as I told you, has been our deal."},{"start":525.13,"end":526.27,"text":"And I've been running into him in various dinner parties."},{"start":526.29,"end":529.12,"text":"And he and his wife last year were coming around into the middle dinner party on the island of Cambodia and they were very much for the same."},{"start":538.85,"end":556.7,"text":"And every day this week it's becoming more positive."},{"start":556.72,"end":556.82,"text":"Good."},{"start":556.84,"end":557.2,"text":"Well, that's good."},{"start":557.22,"end":558.99,"text":"I really wonder whether one could do another I'm an American very like we had last year."},{"start":559.01,"end":560.23,"text":"Well, we could."},{"start":560.25,"end":560.51,"text":"We'd have to."},{"start":560.53,"end":561.07,"text":"When would you have a plan?"},{"start":561.09,"end":561.65,"text":"I don't know, but I know it."},{"start":567.65,"end":575.83,"text":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"start":575.85,"end":579.43,"text":"What's up, man?"},{"start":579.45,"end":585.52,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":585.54,"end":592.11,"text":"Yeah?"},{"start":592.13,"end":592.43,"text":"What'd you say?"},{"start":592.45,"end":592.55,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":595.17,"end":595.31,"text":"Uh-huh."},{"start":595.33,"end":595.75,"text":"Really?"},{"start":595.77,"end":595.87,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":596.82,"end":619.69,"text":"What's that mean?"},{"start":619.71,"end":620.13,"text":"That's a hard answer."},{"start":620.15,"end":620.51,"text":"March in New York."},{"start":620.53,"end":620.91,"text":"That would be good."},{"start":620.93,"end":621.47,"text":"March up Wall Street again."},{"start":621.49,"end":622.07,"text":"That's what they ought to do."},{"start":622.09,"end":622.17,"text":"Hmm."},{"start":622.19,"end":622.83,"text":"We'll put folks to work on that."},{"start":622.85,"end":622.95,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":622.97,"end":623.91,"text":"I'm seeing the families of prisoners on Monday."},{"start":623.93,"end":624.31,"text":"Here in Washington."},{"start":624.33,"end":624.61,"text":"In Washington."},{"start":624.63,"end":625.05,"text":"I'm meeting the vice."},{"start":625.07,"end":625.67,"text":"You notice they, uh, DC, uh,"},{"start":627.54,"end":643.89,"text":"turn down the idea of Sweden, of course."},{"start":643.91,"end":644.49,"text":"Unfortunately, they got that."},{"start":644.51,"end":646.22,"text":"Of course, they didn't throw up the turn down enough, but that's one of those things."},{"start":646.24,"end":647.4,"text":"That's another thing that infuriated some people out here."},{"start":647.42,"end":648.76,"text":"They said, why don't they demonstrate in front of the D.C. embassy?"},{"start":648.78,"end":649.62,"text":"They turned down everything they proposed."},{"start":649.64,"end":650.36,"text":"What I'm going to do, Mr. President,"},{"start":662.29,"end":684.05,"text":"Yeah, well I... Why don't you check it out with Hughes?"},{"start":684.07,"end":684.81,"text":"He has a good feeling of all of them."},{"start":684.83,"end":685.79,"text":"I think I can keep them flying for a few months."},{"start":686.09,"end":686.72,"text":"Well, we hope you can at least."},{"start":686.74,"end":687.88,"text":"Now, you haven't had any reply from weather check."},{"start":692.6,"end":705.63,"text":"Well, if we don't hear anything, I think we just announce it."},{"start":705.65,"end":707.23,"text":"Well, if they don't give us the 16, we just have to announce it again."},{"start":707.25,"end":707.49,"text":"We'll watch."},{"start":707.51,"end":707.75,"text":"We'll watch."},{"start":707.77,"end":708.72,"text":"We're going to announce what we're going to do."},{"start":708.74,"end":708.94,"text":"All right."},{"start":715.65,"end":736.15,"text":"Are you coming on the... what?"},{"start":736.17,"end":737.5,"text":"Well, there's been stonewalling up and the memo is to win tonight."},{"start":737.52,"end":738.18,"text":"But I know what it's going to be."},{"start":738.2,"end":739.1,"text":"It's going to be negative here in the ground."},{"start":739.12,"end":741.18,"text":"It may not be vertical because they claim that the volunteers are generated by the threat of the draft."},{"start":741.2,"end":741.3,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":749.08,"end":763.61,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":763.63,"end":765.48,"text":"Well, maybe we'll have to go in there."},{"start":765.5,"end":765.76,"text":"I don't know."},{"start":765.78,"end":766.88,"text":"I don't know whether that's enough, but it's something."},{"start":766.9,"end":767.98,"text":"Although it's a little wilting down, but not too much."},{"start":773.35,"end":794.03,"text":"It's up to them now."},{"start":800.18,"end":801.14,"text":"If they don't do it, then we just go on our own."},{"start":801.16,"end":801.76,"text":"There's no way to do it there."},{"start":801.78,"end":802.44,"text":"Pretty well wrapped that up then."},{"start":802.46,"end":802.62,"text":"I agree."},{"start":802.64,"end":802.74,"text":"Okay."},{"start":803.57,"end":804.25,"text":"Well, fine."},{"start":805.2,"end":808.34,"text":"Enjoy your stay out there."},{"start":808.36,"end":808.56,"text":"All right."},{"start":808.58,"end":810.98,"text":"See you on Monday."},{"start":811,"end":811.22,"text":"Bye, Henry."},{"start":811.24,"end":811.32,"text":"Bye."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Henry Kissinger discussed sensitive foreign policy developments, including progress in communications with the Soviet Union regarding arms control negotiations and potential summit timing. They also coordinated strategies for managing public announcements regarding relations with the People's Republic of China and Vietnam-related negotiations. Additionally, the pair addressed domestic political concerns, specifically planning for upcoming meetings with POW families and assessing the viability of transitioning to a volunteer army.","topics":["Foreign Policy","SALT","US-China Relations","Vietnam War","POWs","Volunteer Army","Summit Planning"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-05T21:16:09.963Z"},"topicSlugs":["foreign-policy","salt","us-china-relations","vietnam-war","pows","volunteer-army","summit-planning"],"audioDurationSec":811,"audioFiles":[{"file":"002-095.mp3","bytes":12834184,"durationSec":811.28,"bitrate":126558,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:20.570Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:32.969Z","transcriptGapSeconds":324,"transcriptGapShare":0.4,"transcriptQuality":"incomplete","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/002-095.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/002-095","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/2/conversation-002-095","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}