On May 25, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone from 8:28 pm to 8:47 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 003-118 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Mr. President?
Hello, Henry, how are you?
Okay.
I hope you had some good weather there.
Oh, yeah, it was bloody hot.
But it was not so, no rain.
Mr. President, actually nothing much has happened.
The casualties last week were 34, and they didn't include the 31st.
Did not?
No.
Why not?
Because they haven't notified the next of kin yet.
They don't listen to the next of kin.
Oh.
But we're trying to get them to press the motor several weeks.
Why not?
That's right.
Fair enough.
So far, the categories at the end of when they are advised to leave to the next of kin.
They were 34 without any of the 31?
That's good, that's good.
Well, it's good they have 34 this week.
I'm not planning a conference on Friday.
You decided whether that will be in the evening?
Oh, yeah.
I've had people prepare this.
It has to be at night.
Right.
Well, there was some... We got some words that you were reconsidering in my head, but only in our head.
I don't know.
Mr. President, the one thing I did want to discuss with you is the meeting with you.
Uh, I have had research done on how many times the end of ground combat has been announced this year.
Uh-huh.
And Laird alone has announced it already 15 times.
Has he?
And Radford has announced it about seven times.
Also, I ran...
So it doesn't mean much, huh?
My great concern is that the minute you announce this...
What do you think, we can get out of it?
Yes, I think we can.
I'd put a hold on it.
I'm not too damn actually out there.
I'd like to have something positive on Vietnam this month, but we can't do it.
What I think is that by the middle of June, we will know whether the Vietnamese accept our proposal or reject it.
If they reject it, we can go out there, announce the end of combat, and make the proposal publicly together with Jews.
Everyone will say that you're a genius for having got Jews to do it.
If the Vietnamese accept it, then make a proposal.
As a joint?
You mean a proposal for a ceasefire?
For the whole package.
Leading out the other thing?
No, deadline and everything.
And let them reject it publicly.
If they accept it, you will have to teach you in order to keep the thing from blowing up.
And then we can take the heat because we will be in the same position as we were with the Mansfield Amendment that you would be replacing.
A solution will surface.
But you don't think that this is an option?
I honestly don't think so.
I talked to Phil today.
Yeah.
Showed him the cable.
There was no problem.
What do you think?
He'd rather wait?
Yes.
And I... Fine, well then, you know, another thing you can do is let him think that, uh, that he's true, that he's weighing that, that you would actually just wait and see.
But he doesn't know about the other meeting.
Oh, no.
But we will hold so many more cards.
You see, by the middle of June, I think we will have had Semyonov here and signed the accidental war agreement.
Yeah, yeah.
So we will have a number of things going.
We will have had the Chinese reply.
We will have them know what the cards look like.
We have to see him this month.
I mean, he's been promised it.
Well, that's the point.
We have to see him.
But I think we can see him between the 20th and 30th and be a lot more effective.
Even if we only make a group announcement then, it will be closer to the time that the combat obligates to actually start.
I frankly believe that you will lose more than you gain.
I'm sending you a memo which has the whole record of what has been said this year.
I'm just afraid that some people are going to say we don't know what else to do.
And then you will be accused, and you just won't...
The only thing is, I don't know what the hell more we can pull up about.
Let's assume we don't get anything out of here, which is probably not the case.
Then you come out and just, what do you say?
Denounce.
Well, then we can do two things.
Denounce the end of contact, and we make the offer to the patrol.
We know it will get to a guy.
Well, I'll have to search the place and see.
Yeah.
and then everyone will say the reason you got to use it that way was to get him to agree to that problem first.
Well, let me say I'm okay.
I'll fix it.
I'm just concerned about the base.
I'll see if I can help you.
We're going to have to have a shell-in from the Russian people.
They are very basic.
But it may be that isn't enough to travel.
I'm afraid it isn't enough.
You can sleep over it if you don't have to.
No, no, no, I know.
Well, if it isn't enough, there's no reason to do it.
My instinct is, and hey, it's quite independent.
I can't do the same to you.
But the average American may not have heard all these things.
They're playing around with it.
I think the average American, they've been saying it, but they haven't gotten through to the consciousness.
You know, you check the polls.
They don't believe that we're even going to get out.
So you see, sometimes you never want to think sophisticated.
That's what they say.
We can't repeat too often.
But I think that by the end of the month, say by June 25th, or whatever future we predict today with regard, you will see Ursa much more clearly.
Because one thing that I was going to be saying to you tomorrow, because you agreed, is we ought to give the Russians an ultimatum on the summit in about two weeks.
I'm telling them they don't agree now.
then you're just as good as your next greatest living danger.
Yeah.
But we can't let them play the game with us.
Well, let's see.
This is June.
In two weeks, you say, we'll be around the first of June.
But I'm 15.
See, then if we have announced the summit, and we know we are going to get a summit, I think
I don't know if we can get anything out of it.
I think we can, Mr. President, because yesterday the Green and I told him about your decisions on the Green curve.
He's now come into the huge package on economic... And I just don't see why we should dribble it out to them and they'll get nothing in return.
I agree.
Well, and I spoke to the editors down there today.
I talked to them about
I think if we tell them, Mr. President, that they either have each other now, they are trying to play further and they're trying to keep... Also, if we get a summit commitment out of them, it will bring pressure on the Gulf negotiations.
Well, if you've got a... Getting a commitment isn't enough, Henry.
We've had that before.
No, and an announcement
that's what i mean they've got to announce it and uh we've got to say that look we've got to make an announcement get over there but then giving the economic commitment to make some sense otherwise they're going to harvest everything yeah and then play it to their maximum advantage you didn't talk about uh to him about summit today
Oh, he said that if these things work out, bigger things will follow.
No, they haven't.
But they can't play.
I don't think we should let them play with us.
What?
Bigger things will follow.
What the hell?
Big things will follow.
You see, another thing, Mr. President, we have the great incentive to speed up the Berlin negotiations and let me know there's going to be a summit.
And the way things are going now, they're going to pocket it all and we've lost our pressure.
If they refuse the summit, there's no earthly reason why they should refuse the summit.
No, we've agreed to settle salt, at least on an interim basis.
We've been helpful to them on Berlin.
And we're now looking at economic tactics.
We are giving them economic tactics.
I simply tell them, look, the economic thing should be announced at the summit.
and I think what I could tell them as the president is you agree, they are the true man for the first time too.
Now the four of us are there, we've been holding around for years and the president has been able to get here.
He'll be delighted in a couple of months now if he can't do it in December, he'll have to do it in February.
It worked with dogs, I gave him 48 hours to answer and he came back in 24.
Now we're in a position to move on these other things if it's time to do it.
But we've got to know.
And if they refuse, we just start dragging our feet on them.
And we'll just say we'll have to postpone the death.
What did you say, rather than spring?
Yeah.
Why the hell do we want to do it in spring?
I just say we'll postpone that.
We'll just forget about it.
Let's just forget about it.
As far as this year is concerned.
And then you see, then we have, that's what I mean.
And then we have all the cards in our hands.
We will know yes or no from them.
And then we'll have the Chinese answer.
Yeah.
I think it's a better way of playing it.
And then we'll teach you.
And then they won't dream so much.
Nice.
The only thing that worries me a little about it is that it appears that we're begging for the goddamn summit.
I would think they'd want it too.
They want it, Mr. President.
They are just playing a cute game.
They're trying to get everything and pocket it and have us at the maximum bargaining position.
I think this way...
If we keep giving them economic aid, if we keep delivering them... Gleason's all we're going to give them right now.
Gleason and the computers.
The big computer you had already a few times.
You accept independence of the British, you approve that with Heath.
When Heath was there.
But then, Mr. President, we have a chance of giving them some more economic aid.
While if we don't do it,
My view is that if you're going to do this, I'd do it in a week.
In other words, around the 2nd, 3rd of June.
Which is basically right after Memorial Day.
Tuesday or Wednesday of next week.
Alright, well I'm
on the Q thing, I must say, that mixed emotions.
I'm inclined to think that it would mean more than we gathered to come into contact.
But what the hell?
It's been this kind of depressing.
That's the whole problem.
They just kill you.
And then Harriman will be on every national network.
And we've got nothing to talk about.
We've got these other cards in our hands.
Well, if you could come with this
And if when you went to CG you had this plus an awful deadline.
That's what I mean.
You know, it's awfully damn hard for those that have been talking deadline to be against ceasefire, isn't it?
They don't say ceasefire yet.
But on the other hand, how in the hell can you set a deadline
and not face East Fire, because otherwise you jeopardize your remaining forces as you become less and more and more vulnerable.
Well, I saw Santini today, Mr. President.
He was in town.
Oh.
And he says that just to do it for prisoners is too little.
Oh, hell, yes.
And he mentioned, in fact, I didn't tell him it was acceptable.
Exactly the package we've developed, and he thinks just to do it for prisoners is too little.
But he could be wrong.
I'm not nearly so optimistic.
But if they reject it, we can make it public.
You can have him go back and it could be a very good cover for you.
Exactly.
He could be back in Paris.
He is back.
He's left behind.
That's very good.
Right.
That's right.
Well, I will hold off with you until tomorrow.
No, no, no, no, no.
I have no...
If he has to know, I have no strong feeling about the damn thing.
Let me put it this way.
Does Bill Rogers feel we should not have a coup?
Because he doesn't think that means anything.
But he realizes we've got to have a meeting.
I have explained to him that we've got to have a meeting.
He has no ill feeling about the project.
He has no objection to going there.
He just doesn't want to have it now.
Did he suggest being prepared to make some sort of a peace offer at the time?
No, because he doesn't know about the project.
Oh, that's right.
So it opens the layer, though, for Christ's sake.
I don't think we need to say any more to Roger except that he's security is on the end of the line.
Yeah.
When does he go to Europe?
Next June.
Oh, he doesn't.
Well, under the circumstances, I think...
Right.
Right.
Right, I'll do that.
I'll check a date with Haldeman tomorrow morning.
I think we ought to have an alternative date.
I'll check a date and then...
All right.
Let's do it.
Let me take a crack at it.
Well, anyway, nothing else with me.
Oh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh,
Well, the people who don't know anything about it think we've achieved something which they don't understand.
And the people who do draft is ecstatic.
The whole press is very positive.
Branson had a very positive article about you in the Sunday Times.
It doesn't mean a hell of a lot of truth, but I think it has had a very good response.
Well, it's kind of like the China thing, that sort of thing.
Positive response.
But then everyone is saying again that in foreign policy you know exactly what you're doing, you're putting it all together.
Except on Vietnam.
Well, that will... That really is the problem, because of the fact that there are enemies and threats, and of course, people like Reaver and the Reds keep hacking away at them.
I don't think it's just...
carry a burden there with people.
We just have to make a sale that nobody will buy.
Except in Alabama, they're all back.
They will have big signs up, win the war.
Mr. President, I think the people will buy it, and I think it will pay off.
Vietnam?
Oh, after it's done.
I agree.
I think you know, the way these questions are asked.
Yeah, the polls are pretty good.
I mean it.
They have some questions.
But, you know,
Well, fine.
Go right ahead, Henry.
Right.
Right.
All right.