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Conversation 004-047

TapeTape 4StartFriday, June 4, 1971 at 9:03 PMEndFriday, June 4, 1971 at 9:08 PMTape start time02:18:41Tape end time02:23:36ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Kissinger, Henry A.Recording deviceWhite House Telephone
AudioNARA Description

On June 4, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone from 9:03 pm to 9:08 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 004-047 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 4-47

Date: June 4, 1971
Time: 9:03 pm - 9:08 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with Henry A. Kissinger.

     Kissinger's forthcoming conversation with Jay Lovestone
          -Specific export licenses
                -Grain
                -Congress
          -Lovestone

     Cambodia
         -Reports
         -Press veracity
         -Gen. Creighton W. Abrams, Jr.’s veracity
         -Military unit's fighting ability
         -Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
         -Abrams
         -Casualties

     Abrams’ military staff
         -Haig's view
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Yeah.
Henry, I was thinking on that matter of the conversation you had with Lovestone, that the real emphasis should be the idea that, well, we're not really changing the thing.
We're just putting this in the general thing.
You know what I mean?
You see what I mean?
If you put it in terms of specifics,
you know, specific waiving of the thing for this or that.
I don't know, but I, when you talk to him again, you might, the thing you mentioned to me earlier that the... Yeah, I frankly, unfortunately, didn't discover that formula until after I had talked to Lovestone.
Yeah.
But I will explain to him how that will operate.
Explain to him in the morning that what we are thinking about is not changing it with regard to specific items or anything of that sort of thing, but just
just including, just making this part of the, which we have in other areas, don't we?
Oh, yes.
And in fact, it can be enforced only, as I said, if one has specific licenses for each case.
Yeah.
And we can just avoid that.
Yeah.
In other words, announce it, and then...
Then give the licenses or not, you mean?
Is that what you mean?
No.
If you make a general license, then the individual items of shipping can't be controlled.
I get your point.
Well, that's what we want to do, a general license for grains only.
Exactly.
And I'd point that out, that that's what we have in mind to avoid congressional pressures to do more than that, see?
Right.
And to attack the whole thing.
Right.
And he understood it anyway, Mr. President.
He's a tough pro.
Well, you could tell him that in the morning, that that's what we have in mind.
His intention is to be helpful.
Sure, sure, sure.
Okay, fine, Henry.
Well, I'll talk to you in the morning about it.
I've now gotten more reports from Cambodia and the East.
Unfortunately, the press was telling the truth, and Abrams wasn't again.
Is that right?
Yeah.
You mean we took a banging, huh?
Yeah.
How bad is it?
Well, it's pretty bad.
It was a lousy outfit.
They obviously ran.
And the worst of it is,
For three months, Haig and I have been sending telegrams out there.
We can't bother you with every division.
Well, is it bad in terms of the long range or the short range?
No, not in terms of the long range, but we may, we ought to look at this whole Abrams problem again.
Well, I think the story is virtually over now, don't you?
The story is over, I mean, and actually... And it's confused.
In a confused way.
Mm-hmm.
But the, well, what about this, the reports about casualties inflicted and so forth?
Did we inflict a lot or not?
You don't know?
I don't know.
Let me put it this way.
They are out of proportion to the number of weapons we captured.
Yep.
And
Well, I think most of it's bombing.
That's what they're really talking about.
So it's hard to know.
They did inflict some heavy casualties, and the other side hasn't pursued, so this suggests that they too took heavy losses.
Right.
Okay.
But I'll take care of this.
You'll have to take care of it.
The Abrams thing is a problem, isn't it, though?
It's a problem.
He and his staff, too, must be giving us a bunch of jazz.
Yeah, they're pretty lousy.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Haig, what?
But Haig tells me he has a tendency always to have second-raters around him.
Hmm.
Well, I don't know how we can shake it up much now, can we?
No.
Can't change him now, can we?
Not at the lower levels.
No.
No.
I don't know whether you can shake him up, that's the point.
That's the thing that one might take a look at.
I don't know, that'd be pretty drastic, wouldn't it, at this point?
It'd be pretty drastic.
I mean, the psychological effect of that could be...
Unless he did it for health reasons.
Yeah.
But that's not anything that requires an immediate decision that can depend on some of the other...
But you do not see a follow-up on their part, at least?
No.
Absolutely not.
So it was just one of those things, right?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Right, Mr. President.
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