Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 5 › Conversation 005-058
Nixon phone call with Rogers on Vietnam War casualties and Pentagon Papers
Sunday, June 13, 1971 · 1:28 PM–1:35 PM ET · White House Telephone · 7 min
AI Summary
President Nixon and Secretary of State William P. Rogers discuss the successful media coverage of Tricia Nixon's wedding and the positive trend of declining U.S. casualties in Vietnam. The conversation shifts to the recent Pentagon Papers leak in the New York Times, which Nixon characterizes as a massive security breach that reflects poorly on the previous administration. They coordinate a strategy to publicly discredit Clark Clifford, specifically planning for Rogers to address Clifford's recent political maneuvers with measured criticism.
- Tricia Nixon's wedding
- Vietnam War casualties
- Pentagon Papers
- Clark Clifford
- Media relations
Audio
Transcript (AI-generated)
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Hello.
Hi, Miss Burton.
Hi, Bill.
Hey, that wedding was just great.
Well, it was the... You've got to give Pat and Tricia the credit.
They really worked.
And that White House staff, weren't they great?
Everything was absolutely superb.
Yeah.
and i thought the press coverage was excellent uh the tv was uh really you didn't see it probably i saw some of it i thought it was all great it was really really came out the all three networks that it just really couldn't have done better i don't know how you could have done any better i mean there were no snide remarks or anything just really really handled it well it couldn't have been better
And incidentally, one thing I was going to mention, that the casualties this week are going to be less than 20 again, unless something has come up in us.
They have some MIAs that they're putting in.
In fact, it could be 15, I think.
Is that right?
Yeah.
So we're now coming into that period, which we said we would.
You know, I heard on the radio a little while ago that this is the first time that there's been no combat activity involving United States troops in South Vietnam.
The last 24 hours, no combat at all.
Good, good.
Wasn't that good?
Well, there were three days last week, apparently.
I just talked to Cullen, talking to Haig, and he said there were three days there were no kills in action at all.
And through Thursday, there were only four.
So Friday, Saturday may have picked up some, but as I said, they sometimes pick up some who have been missing, and then they just decide that they're gone now, and they just let them go.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, I was...
I don't know whether you, I didn't read the piece, but Higg was talking to me about it, that he's, that piece in the Times is, of course, a massive security leak from the Pentagon, you know.
It all relates to, it all relates, of course, to everything up until we came in.
And it's hard on Johnson.
It's hard on Kennedy.
It's hard on Lodge.
of course the difficulty from our standpoint and I suppose the Times is running it now because of McGovern Hatfield it's also hard on the Vietnamese you know the covert up there but apparently the McNamara had the study made started and then it was continued through by Clifford but it's really something they said according to Haig that four thousand
secure documents were apparently just leaked to the Times.
Isn't that awful?
Of course, McNamara looks lousy, too.
He comes out looking like that.
Yeah, I didn't read the piece, but he looks, apparently, by the time you see the difficulty was McNamara started, then Clifford got in.
He makes McNamara look bad.
and trying to make him look good.
Yeah, they're a bunch of scoundrels.
This goddamn Clifford, you know, his talking around.
If he's got something he ought to say, he ought to tell us.
Well, I'll talk to you.
I know he's going to see your fellow Wednesday, but... Who is?
He's going to see who?
Clifford.
He said he was told the press that he was going to see Sullivan or...
to report to him, you know, because we asked for it.
In other words, we said, look, if you've got anything, what is it?
And he said, well, I'll talk to Sullivan.
Sullivan called him.
i guess i didn't know that sullivan no no no he did at our suggestion oh no sure sure because see when it came up uh ron i didn't want to have any any interest shown in the white house so uh we just said we'll have uh sullivan say well look we we're negotiating here if you've got something to pass on to bruce let us know yeah but he's uh well i thought that uh i could take him on a little tuesday did mel was mill on television today
I think he was supposed to have been on one of the talk shows, but yes, I think he was.
Yeah, I didn't see it.
Maybe I'll have a chance to talk a bit more about what I should say Tuesday.
I'll take him on as hard as you want me to.
Yeah, well, I would say this, that the real problem is, of course, how much we want to build him, but on the other hand...
Others may build him so that he has to be taken on, but we'll see what Mel did, too.
Mel said he was going to take him on, but... Well, I think that if I take him on, I should do it with a flick of my wrist.
And more in sorrow than in anger.
My view, the view being, look, after all, he was in this whole thing, and he left us with 550,000 men there, and so forth, and casualties at 300 a week.
Now, if he's...
Under those circumstances, of course, if he's got information that...
he should that that it's he owes it to pass it on we we're and that and I think the idea too that
My God, we're exploring every possible thing.
You know, Bruce brings up everything he can, every damn thing.
Of course.
We don't even get a nibble.
I can hit him pretty hard if I have to because he's very vulnerable.
I don't know what he has.
Oh, he doesn't have any.
It's probably through, don't you think, through some embassy or something?
Oh, I don't know.
It's a political move.
That's all it is.
You think so?
Sure.
He doesn't have anything.
They told me that Johnson is furious at it now.
Johnson was at, in New York, was speaking to, talking to, I mean, some sort of a party he was attending, and apparently he said, damn it, he says the trouble with Clifford is that if...
says he can talk like this and go out to Burning Tree and he says the president's got to go back to the damn office and he said he ought to tell him.
That's a good boy.
Not bad.
That's really pretty good isn't it?
It's so true Clifford.
Well let's talk about it tomorrow and let's see what Mel said and get a line.
I'm deliberately having what Ziegler has plated as you know rather cool and we'll continue to tomorrow but
Well, we can decide.
I don't think... We want to be sure we don't build him up as an individual.
No, never.
Because he's not known in the country.
He's not known.
And the story, from what I have heard, is not getting a hell of a lot of attention nationally.
No.
It's more of a Washington, New York story.
Even in Washington, though, the papers are sort of criticizing him.
Yeah.
I understand White took him on.
Well, even a fellow like Charles Roberts, who's against us, took him on.
Of course, he was over there, too.
Roberts had that interview, which...
Right.
And really, when you read that interview as one, gee, they've toughened their position.
Yeah.
They're saying, look, we won't do anything unless you stop the aid.
That's right.
Sure.
Well, we'll see you tomorrow.
All right.
Thanks, Mr. President.
NARA Description
On June 13, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and William P. Rogers talked on the telephone from 1:28 pm to 1:35 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 005-058 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 5-58
Date: June 13, 1971
Time: 1:28 pm - 1:35 pm
Location: White House Telephone
The President talked with William P. Rogers.
[See Conversation No. 256-37]
White House operator
Greetings
**********************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1
[Personal returnable]
[Duration: 4s ]
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1
**********************************************************************
Tricia Nixon Cox's wedding
-Thelma C. (“Pat”) Nixon
-White House staff
-TV coverage
******************************************************************************
BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3
[Personal returnable]
[Duration: 11s ]
END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3
******************************************************************************
Vietnam weekly casualties
-Number
-Missing in action [MIA]
-No ground combat involving US troops for twenty-four hours
-Killed in action [KIA]
-President's conversation with Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
-MIAs
Pentagon Papers leak in New York Times
-President's conversation with Haig
-Lyndon B. Johnson
-John F. Kennedy
-Henry Cabot Lodge
-McGovern-Hatfield Amendment
-Vietnamese
-Robert S. McNamara
-Clark M. Clifford
-Leak from Pentagon
-William C. Sullivan
-Forthcoming meeting with Clifford
-Ronald L. Ziegler
-David K.E. Bruce
-Melvin R. Laird
-Clifford
-Rogers’ possible response
-Johnson's opinion
-Laird's possible response
-Ziegler's response
-Press coverage
-[Forename unknown] White
-Chalmers RobertsAlso recorded on June 13, 1971
- 005-054 12:53 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Thelma C. ("Pat") (Ryan) Nixon talked on the telephone from 12:53 pm to 12:56 pm.
- 005-055 12:53 PM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 12:53 pm and 1:28 pm.
- 005-056 12:53 PM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Rose Mary Woods talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 12:53 pm and 1:28 pm.
- 005-057 12:53 PM · 9 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 12:53 pm and 1:28 pm.
- 256-034 12:56 PM · 53 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 12:56 pm and 1:28 pm.
- 256-035 12:56 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Rose Mary Woods met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 12:56 pm and 1:28 pm.
- 256-037 1:28 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and William P. Rogers met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 1:28 pm to 1:35 pm.
- 256-038 1:35 PM · 54 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 1:35 pm and 3:09 pm.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 005-058, June 13, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/005-058 (accessed October 12, 2026).