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Conversation 005-113

TapeTape 5StartThursday, June 17, 1971 at 6:38 PMEndThursday, June 17, 1971 at 6:45 PMTape start time03:26:53Tape end time03:33:46ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Colson, Charles W.Recording deviceWhite House Telephone
AudioNARA Description

On June 17, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone from 6:38 pm to 6:45 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 005-113 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 5-113

Date: June 17, 1971
Time: 6:38 pm - 6:45 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with Charles W. Colson.

[See Conversation No. 261-16A]

     President's schedule
          -Denial of access to unnamed group [newsmen ?] during foreign travel by the
President

     Pentagon Papers
          -Lyndon B. Johnson
          -Contacts with Bryce N. Harlow
          -Mike Manatos (?)
          -Tom Johnson
          -Johnson's need to defend himself
          -Hubert H. Humphrey
          -Walt W. Rostow's efforts
          -Call from Harlow and Manatos
          -Johnson's need to defend himself
          -President defense of Johnson
          -Harlow's forthcoming call to Johnson
          -Clark M. Clifford
          -Robert S. McNamara
          -McGeorge Bundy
                                               65

                          NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF

                                      Tape Subject Log
                                        (rev. 10/08)



          -Humphrey
          -Edmund S. Muskie
          -Dean Rusk
          -Edward M. (“Ted”) Kennedy
          -Comments regarding release by New York Times
          -Administration's response
          -Death of Ngo Dinh Diem
          -Washington Post's possible publication
          -Teamsters' proposal to stop delivering New York Times
          -Possible effect
          -Johnson's necessity to defend himself
          -John B. Connally's comments, June 17th
          -Ronald L. Ziegler's statements
          -Colson's conversation with Harlow
          -President's possible courses of action
          -Harlow's forthcoming call
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Any foreign trip of mine, they're never to be on in the future.
Just cut off.
Yeah.
Mr. Coulson, sir.
Yeah.
Yes, sir, Mr. President.
What success has Bryce had, if any, with Johnson?
Now, this is terribly important.
Oh, I think it is.
Johnson's got to step up to this, and he's got to step up to it on the basis that there's a hell of a lot going to come out on a lot of other things, too.
Well, that's right.
He's got to go to the country.
If I step up, he's got to.
Well, I think Bryce called.
He got Mike Manitos on the phone with him.
Mike was very close to LBJ, as you know, and they called Tom Johnson.
Johnson called back, and they passed their message on that they felt very strongly that he had to defend himself and hold a press conference, that his silence could be misinterpreted.
Right.
Particularly after what Hubert said.
That horrible thing.
That's right.
Why don't they tell him it'll help his book?
That's right.
Good God.
They got a call back and they said that Rostow had been working with President Johnson on this and that Rostow was against his saying anything while the case was pending.
No, the case.
Oh, no, no, no.
That's just an excuse.
It's an excuse.
Rostow just doesn't want to get him involved and put all the blame on us.
Exactly.
That's all.
Harlow and Manitose called back again at 4 o'clock this afternoon and they said that they felt
as friends of LBJ's, that it was imperative that he defend himself immediately and that he...
It will not affect the case.
That's right.
He's been condemned in the public press right now.
He is a villain.
If he doesn't defend himself, he'll go down in history.
And by God, I'll quit defending him.
If he doesn't get this message across, if he doesn't defend himself, I can no longer defend him.
Yes, sir.
I want a...
Have you got that down?
Yes, sir.
He must be told that I cannot defend him because tomorrow in Rochester I've got to defend him, but I can't do it if he won't defend himself.
I think that's a very good point.
Bryce can get that across to him tomorrow.
Bryce is going to call him personally in the morning.
Give him overnight to think about it.
Got to make it clear.
Tell Bryce to call him tonight.
He's got to call him tonight.
He's got to get ready.
He's got to say, look, the president's going to Rochester tomorrow.
He's going to speak out on this thing.
But the president cannot defend you unless you'll defend yourself.
All right.
That will suggest to LBJ that you've talked to Bryce, but that's all right.
That's all right.
That's all right.
That I've talked to him and I think he's got to defend himself.
I'm willing to, I'm going to defend him, but he's got to defend himself or I can't do it.
I can't sit up here and take the brunt.
of all this without his defending himself.
Nobody else is speaking up.
Clifford isn't speaking up.
McNamara isn't speaking up.
Bundy is cracking him.
Humphrey is slaughtering him.
Muskie is killing him.
Rusk is refusing to talk.
Teddy Kennedy is saying, go ahead.
Rusk isn't talking?
What does Teddy say?
Teddy says, I don't mind.
Go ahead and release all the papers involving my brother.
It won't bother me.
Let history come out.
Let the chips fall, he said.
Yeah, because he knows damn well the New York Times will suppress the type on Teddy that will hurt him.
That's right, exactly.
And on his brother.
On Jack.
Son of a bitch.
It's really a cruel thing, but we're going to get out some papers.
I'd rather act to Henry.
He's going to get out the stuff on the murder of Diem, and we're going to put it out.
Henry has that, and we should find a way to get it out at the right time.
Well, he doesn't have it.
He has it, but he won't put it out.
He's embarrassed.
Well, there'll be ways that will get out.
I heard today, which is strictly grapevine, that the Washington Post had all of this and intended to start publishing, so that may well happen.
On the next chapters, the next sequels.
One way or another, that will get out, Mr. President, I'm sure.
We'll see that it does.
What a depraved thing that these papers would just...
publish things without regard to the national interest.
Well, it is.
The Teamsters are seriously considering, this is very off the record, but they're seriously considering stopping delivery of the New York Times.
Oh God, if they would, that would be great.
Wouldn't that be marvelous?
Well, they're giving it some very serious thought, and that just might have a hell of an effect if their argument is if the New York Times can judge what is national security, so can the Teamsters.
But tell them and let them know that, you know, in a confident way that
Nothing will be more appreciated.
But believe me, there is nothing that could be more effective.
I mean, stop these bastards.
Let them know that the folks are not on their side.
Well, that would show them that the people just aren't going to put up with this.
I think we have a chance of getting them to do it.
They seem pretty receptive.
But now we've got to get Johnson to go on the press conference.
I'm not going to...
I can't continue to defend him.
I'm defending him.
No, I agree.
Connolly said in his NSC today, he says, they're blaming Johnson.
He's down the curtain now.
They're blaming the president.
They don't know who the hell's president.
That's correct.
And this thing has not gotten across.
You know, Ziegler said it and everybody else, but nobody's gotten it across that it all happened to Johnson.
This is not us.
Well, exactly.
And that's exactly why this morning I got very worked up over this and talked to Bryce.
Because it seems to me that if Johnson starts defending it, it at least shifts the focus back to the Johnson administration.
He's got to defend it.
He's got to defend it.
Or, put it this way to Johnson, either he defends himself or I have no choice
but to
but to let the chips fall where they may, just use those terms.
I have no choice.
He's got to defend himself because I cannot do it.
I cannot carry this load unless he will do it himself.
He's got to defend himself.
I don't want to blame him for the war.
I don't want to blame him for these decisions.
But if he doesn't, I have no choice but to go in the other direction.
Put it that way.
I kind of think that'll have an impact on him because I'm sure, according to Bryce, he is terribly upset.
The Texas paper's
are giving it very heavy play, and he's apparently reading the papers and throwing them around the office and just upset as hell.
But he's got to say, the president wants to defend you.
I defended him, I'll defend him with regard to getting into the work.
I defend the fact that he, whatever he knew that he wasn't lying, I don't think he lied, I think this is just a contingency plan, but if he will not defend himself, I will have no choice
but also to refuse to defend him, and I don't want to do that.
But he's got to step up and defend himself Saturday, and I've got to know before I appear before the press on Friday afternoon.
Now, I've got to know by tonight.
Now, you tell Bryce to get off his ass and do this now.
I'll do it, and then I'll get the message back to you, sir.
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