{"conversationCode":"005-131","tapeNumber":5,"conversationNumber":131,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-005-131","startDateTime":"1971-06-23T02:31:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1971-06-23T02:38:00.000Z","startDate":"22-Jun-1971","startTime":"10:31 PM","endDate":"22-Jun-1971","endTime":"10:38 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.;","description":"On June 22, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone from 10:31 pm to 10:38 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 005-131 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":1,"chronRelease":"First Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"5-Oct-1999","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 5-131\n\nDate: June 22, 1971\nTime: 10:31 pm - 10:38 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nThe President talked with Henry A. Kissinger.\n\n     Kissinger’s schedule\n          -Preparation for forthcoming trip\n\n     Vietnam War\n          -President's possible conciliation\n                -Michael J. (\"Mike\") Mansfield\n          -Pentagon Papers\n          -Clark M. Clifford\n          -McGovern-Hatfield Amendment\n          -Opponents of President's foreign policy\n          -Pentagon Papers\n          -Administrations response\n          -Effect on negotiations\n          -Spiro T. Agnew's possible speech\n          -Kissinger's possible conversation with Patrick J. Buchanan\n          -Agnew's speech to Young Republicans\n          -Opponent's of President's Vietnam policy\n          -Pentagon Papers\n                -Edward M. (“Ted”) Kennedy\n                -John F. Kennedy\n                -Lyndon B. Johnson\n                      -Boston Globe\n                      -Paul N. McCloskey, Jr.'s statement on the death of Ngo Dinh Diem\n                            -Henry Cabot Lodge\n          -Kissinger’s response\n          -People’s Republic of China [PRC] initiative","filename":["005-131.mp3"],"tapeStart":"04:00:28","tapeEnd":"04:07:14","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Kissinger, Henry A."],"prevCode":"005-130","nextCode":"005-132","transcript":[{"start":1.16,"end":5.73,"text":"Hello?"},{"start":5.75,"end":6.13,"text":"Mr. Kissinger, sir."},{"start":6.15,"end":8,"text":"Are you all ready for your trip?"},{"start":8.02,"end":17.43,"text":"I'm getting ready."},{"start":17.45,"end":18.9,"text":"I just got home."},{"start":18.92,"end":19.72,"text":"I went to the office a little while ago."},{"start":19.74,"end":20.22,"text":"I'm getting ready to go."},{"start":20.24,"end":21.4,"text":"Well, I'll look in on you in the morning before I go away."},{"start":21.42,"end":22.24,"text":"I won't be back until 10.30 this morning."},{"start":27.62,"end":51.41,"text":"Well, I wouldn't be very conciliatory with Mansfield."},{"start":51.43,"end":52.35,"text":"I'm not going to be a goddamn big conciliator."},{"start":52.37,"end":52.55,"text":"You fool."},{"start":52.57,"end":53.35,"text":"On this, I'm going to say it on my own."},{"start":53.37,"end":53.83,"text":"You should know that..."},{"start":53.85,"end":54.15,"text":"I would say so."},{"start":54.17,"end":55.19,"text":"Because what these people have done is unconscious."},{"start":55.21,"end":56.09,"text":"One looked at the combination of Clifford..."},{"start":56.75,"end":82.92,"text":"Well, we played it the best way we could."},{"start":82.94,"end":83.28,"text":"We had no choice."},{"start":83.3,"end":83.56,"text":"I mean, we..."},{"start":83.58,"end":83.96,"text":"It doesn't tire us."},{"start":83.98,"end":84.12,"text":"It's..."},{"start":90.94,"end":115.38,"text":"I'm beginning to wonder whether the basic strategy, at least from the way the foreign policy side looks to me, we had them on their knees last October."},{"start":115.4,"end":117.42,"text":"And whatever it was that didn't get us all the votes was, I think it had more to do with the economy."},{"start":117.44,"end":117.66,"text":"Oh, it did."},{"start":117.68,"end":118.36,"text":"And then we let them off the hook."},{"start":121.72,"end":148.13,"text":"Well, we'll have one."},{"start":148.15,"end":148.69,"text":"We still have the big hole."},{"start":148.71,"end":149.41,"text":"We'll have him on your knees again."},{"start":149.43,"end":150.44,"text":"But we have to start hollering trees a little bit."},{"start":150.46,"end":150.79,"text":"Yeah, I guess so."},{"start":152.77,"end":172.01,"text":"Oh, I think so."},{"start":172.03,"end":174.29,"text":"I think so."},{"start":174.31,"end":175.03,"text":"When I say we, I really can't do it."},{"start":175.05,"end":175.66,"text":"No, no, but Agnew could do it."},{"start":175.68,"end":177.24,"text":"And some of our people could do it, and then they'd have to defend themselves."},{"start":177.26,"end":178.26,"text":"I wonder if Agnew should say something about that."},{"start":178.28,"end":178.92,"text":"I think it'd be a good occasion."},{"start":178.94,"end":180.68,"text":"I think he should give a rip-snorter of a speech pointing out what happened this month."},{"start":194.36,"end":213.34,"text":"Why don't you tell Buchanan what you think he ought to improve in respect to making a speech on Vietnam to the Republicans?"},{"start":213.35,"end":213.92,"text":"Just as good a place as any."},{"start":213.94,"end":214.14,"text":"I think..."},{"start":214.16,"end":214.78,"text":"It doesn't make any difference."},{"start":214.8,"end":215.5,"text":"I think... Just leave it out there."},{"start":215.52,"end":216.54,"text":"I think that... Because they have a desire to lose."},{"start":217.89,"end":238.43,"text":"They couldn't bear the thought that we bring this."},{"start":238.45,"end":239.35,"text":"They're not so worried about our getting out."},{"start":239.37,"end":240.75,"text":"They're worried about our getting out without Saigon going communist."},{"start":240.77,"end":240.87,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":240.89,"end":241.19,"text":"They're afraid."},{"start":241.21,"end":242.23,"text":"They want us to get out and have a go at communism."},{"start":242.25,"end":242.43,"text":"Oh, yeah."},{"start":242.45,"end":242.67,"text":"Absolutely."},{"start":242.69,"end":243.38,"text":"Mainly because they want us to go."},{"start":243.4,"end":244.06,"text":"Because that means you had faith."},{"start":244.08,"end":245.04,"text":"And they can say they would have done it faster."},{"start":245.06,"end":245.4,"text":"Doing their best."},{"start":245.68,"end":259.85,"text":"Well, except these papers are not helping us, Mr. Fitts."},{"start":259.87,"end":260.25,"text":"I don't understand."},{"start":260.27,"end":260.53,"text":"I don't know."},{"start":260.55,"end":261.62,"text":"And in fact, our making such a tough fight helps us."},{"start":261.63,"end":261.74,"text":"What?"},{"start":261.76,"end":269.08,"text":"Our public relations people don't like the fight we are making, but our making it makes it clear that we are not behind these revelations."},{"start":269.1,"end":269.9,"text":"I mean, even Kennedy is getting cut now."},{"start":269.92,"end":270.02,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":270.04,"end":271.32,"text":"I mean, these were the great Kennedy people who did all of this."},{"start":271.35,"end":271.49,"text":"I know."},{"start":273.41,"end":296.29,"text":"in the chance administration, those were all Kennedy appointees."},{"start":296.31,"end":296.41,"text":"Sure."},{"start":296.43,"end":298.01,"text":"Yeah, as it goes along, they're going to get it pretty well smeared up in this."},{"start":298.03,"end":299.37,"text":"Well, and it's coming out anyway, bit by bit, over our oppositions."},{"start":299.39,"end":299.49,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":299.51,"end":301.63,"text":"The Globe Papers, the Boston Globe Papers, now added to a static flap at Kennedy."},{"start":301.65,"end":301.75,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":301.77,"end":302.54,"text":"Flosky is now saying that last..."},{"start":304.05,"end":325.19,"text":"contributed to the assassination here on Kennedy's order."},{"start":325.21,"end":325.48,"text":"McCloskey is?"},{"start":325.5,"end":325.68,"text":"Oh, yeah."},{"start":325.69,"end":326.06,"text":"Well, that's nice."},{"start":326.08,"end":329.02,"text":"So McCloskey is grieving with the one hand the Americans pretending to be his friend and the other they were killing him, which happens to be true."},{"start":329.04,"end":329.14,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":329.16,"end":329.46,"text":"Let him say it."},{"start":329.48,"end":329.98,"text":"That's a good one to say."},{"start":330,"end":331.68,"text":"And it's now coming out from the sort of, if we said it, they'd accuse us of smears."},{"start":331.7,"end":332.62,"text":"But it's now coming out from the right people."},{"start":332.82,"end":359.25,"text":"I'm trying to think of a way to keep the loose for a while."},{"start":359.27,"end":360.7,"text":"And any event, one of those things, just a totally irresponsible thing."},{"start":360.72,"end":361.26,"text":"Let me say, make your play."},{"start":361.28,"end":361.64,"text":"It may still work."},{"start":361.66,"end":361.92,"text":"Play it hard."},{"start":362.24,"end":390.09,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":390.11,"end":391.1,"text":"Now, what should we have and what should we have?"},{"start":391.38,"end":402.76,"text":"You know which we have, which we have, what we can say, what we can't say."},{"start":402.78,"end":404,"text":"And then we've got another two months to play some Bruce Lee."},{"start":404.02,"end":404.23,"text":"OK, Henry."},{"start":404.25,"end":404.32,"text":"Bye."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Henry Kissinger discussed political strategies for managing the fallout from the Pentagon Papers leak and ongoing opposition to the Vietnam War. They analyzed the political vulnerabilities of Democratic figures like Ted Kennedy and agreed that the administration should adopt a combative public stance to discredit critics. Nixon suggested that Vice President Spiro Agnew deliver a forceful speech to rally support and coordinate this effort through Patrick Buchanan.","topics":["Pentagon Papers","Vietnam War","Spiro T. Agnew","Political strategy","Public relations"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-05T22:02:03.539Z"},"topicSlugs":["pentagon-papers","vietnam-war","spiro-agnew","political-strategy","public-relations"],"audioDurationSec":405,"audioFiles":[{"file":"005-131.mp3","bytes":5116738,"durationSec":405.07,"bitrate":101054,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:21.078Z","transcriptGapSeconds":239,"transcriptGapShare":0.59,"transcriptQuality":"incomplete","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/005-131.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/005-131","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/005/conversation-005-131","catalogNaId":644218057,"catalogUrl":"https://catalog.archives.gov/id/644218057","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}