On July 1, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone from 6:30 pm to 6:37 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 006-086 of the White House Tapes.
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Yeah.
Yes, sir.
Chuck, I wanted to be sure that you got the message from Haldeman with regard to taking this month's casualty figures.
I think it's the lowest month in probably six years.
It is, Mr. President.
Did you get that out?
I mean, putting it in in terms of a month, you see, you've got 19, 25, 25, 21.
Now, that's a...
In other words, the casualty this month
are less than they were in a week a year ago.
That's right, less than 100.
I'm sure it's the lowest month.
We were researching that this afternoon.
But I mean, let's make a little out of it, and let's be damn sure it's a networked well.
See that Scali watches the networks and follows them up on this tonight.
We'll do it.
But it's a really very significant shock.
It's a damn significant thing.
Oh, it sure is.
As I told you on the phone the other night, everything that I predicted has happened here just as it did in Cambodia.
Exactly, and of course that's...
No, I think with John, you tell John that this is something that I think he ought to really broker this one.
Scali understands this, you see.
Oh, yes, and he had made the point a week ago to me that if this week was down, we'd have a sensational month to talk about.
Yeah, 21.
Well, good.
We'll get out and talk to him, and good.
Fine.
Yes, sir.
Is your meeting over yet?
No, it broke up.
Yeah.
You mean with Ehrlichman and Odom?
Yeah.
Yeah, the consensus is very strong, Mr. President, as I'm sure Bob will report to you that...
You do nothing before Tuesday, if then.
I don't think I should do anything then.
I just have a strong feeling that's a wrong time, too.
Well, I do, but there's an argument for it.
Oh, I know.
The argument is so that we aren't in the position of being repressive.
That's defensive.
I don't want to do anything defensive.
That argument doesn't mean a damn to me.
I don't think the repression thing is significant at all.
What's the purpose of it, then?
The argument would be that here you are with a group of editors...
you could put it out on the record as a statement and say, I know you fellows are particularly interested in this subject and here are my views, bang, and forget it.
But both Bob and I, I think that was the consensus of Moore and Ziegler, both Bob and I feel that we'd like to withhold judgment on that until the weekend.
I'm not sure that... How does Scali feel?
Because he's got good judgment on this.
We didn't have him in the meeting, and I haven't sampled him, but I will say that he was very strong about your not doing it now.
Well, you tell him.
I'm going to have to talk with him in the near future, but the main thing I want him to know that on this thing here, how about Rogers?
Have we got him going?
Yes, sir.
Scali stayed with him.
God, he said it was like pulling a mule, but he got him down there in front of the cameras, and he did a good statement.
Oh, he did?
Yes, sir.
Today?
Yes, sir.
He did it at 4.30, and we suspect it'll make the network news tonight.
Sure.
Well, good.
Now, how about your call to Bill White and Johnson?
I talked to Bill, and he said that Johnson really ought to come out.
God damn it, his place in history is involved.
It's an interesting report I got back, Mr. President.
When I talked to Bill, I said, you know, you told me Lyndon was going to do this, the president was going to do this, and we're kind of just curious, Bill.
And he said, well, he said, I told you it was my opinion.
Well, he didn't.
He told me that he'd talked to him.
He was hedging a bit, and I think he had already talked to him today.
He said, he's not really, I'm not sure that he'll do it right today, but very soon.
And he said, by the way, you should know that he let Rusk come out on this.
And that's very significant.
Then he called me back.
A strange call I got back from Bill White.
He said, I didn't really get through to the president, but he said, I can tell you how he feels.
And I think he did get through to him.
He said he has awfully strong feelings.
He is mad as hell.
He's madder than the president, President Nixon.
He said the injunction was a terrible mistake.
He said what I would have done was... Mad at me?
No, no, no.
Mad at the whole issue.
Mad at the New York Times and Ellsbury.
The injunction was a mistake?
He said the injunction was a mistake.
He said if I'd been running the show, he said I'd have gotten a friendly grand jury when I could control up in New York.
Maybe Brooklyn, I'd have brought every son of a bitch connected with this thing in there in the room at the same time.
That's right.
Convicted him.
I'd have thrown the book at him.
I would have done the same thing, but you see, Chuck, we've crossed that bridge.
Oh, sure.
Now we've done it.
Well, but this is typical second-guessing.
That's right.
He said, you'll be interested in this, he said, I would have indicted Salzburger, Ellsberg, and all those other goddamn Jews.
He said the public would associate him with the Rosenbergs and the others.
His view is that we should go all the way and prosecute him and throw in Townsend Hoops, who he thinks was a Defense Department official who leaked a lot of this stuff.
Boy, I know who he is, yeah.
He's an ass.
But can we get him?
All right.
Well, Bill's answer to that was that he's under considerable pressure from his friends, including Bill White, to speak out.
He should speak out.
And Bill feels he will.
And he'll do well, too, if he does.
I think he would.
Bill feels he will, Mr. President.
He's got a hell of a lot to say, and it'll be big.
You know, look.
You ought to call Bill White back and say, look, you can talk about his place in history and everything else, but there's nothing like his hitting 50 million people on television.
He should speak out only on prime time.
He should say, look, they've been badgering and so forth and so on.
He should ask for prime time television, go on prime time television, 9 o'clock, hit 50 million people, and state the case.
And he'll be convincing.
And it'll sell, incidentally, a million copies of his book.
Oh, sure it will.
See what I mean?
Well, I'll call Bill back.
He, as you know, is in frequent touch with him.
Well, that's right.
And what he said...
The point is that I think that's in Johnson's interest to do that.
And just to say this is a biased thing, it's wrong.
When is Rusk on?
Tonight?
Rusk is on tomorrow night, sir, for an hour.
But to be questioned, or how's it worked?
It's an hour interview with Barbara Walters and Edward Newman.
It's on NBC.
Oh, boy.
At 10 to 11.
But this Rusk is smart.
He handles himself well.
Well, Bill White said to me that I can assure you that Dean Rusk would not be going on if he didn't have the blessing.
So Bill called me back.
As a matter of fact, he called me back twice.
The second time he said, you know, he said, I have such a fond feeling for you and the president and this administration.
And he said, you guys are
just great.
He said, I want to tell you anything I can, as long as I'm not violating a confidence from President Johnson.
He said, just let me say that it is my opinion he will go on.
So I think he was, I think it isn't decided, but he's urging him hard.
Johnson always plays it that way.
He tells him, I will, I won't, and then he doesn't.
He plays it close to the vest.
There's also a CBS program on tomorrow night on this, which
which further argues for your not having said anything, because that would just put you right in the... Well, there is a CBS program, yeah.
It's going to be now.
We understand a CBS special.
We don't know whether it's just local or national yet.
Well, of course, this may, of course, Buchanan would argue that this proves we have to go on because the networks are just going wild, putting on specials and everything else.
But you know, I'm not sure that they're...
They may be overplaying it.
I think they're making... Look, good God, Chuck Kennedy's in this goddamn thing.
Johnson's in this thing.
I don't think we're in it at all.
No, not at all.
That's the whole point.
Now, even Dick Moore, who argued earlier for you to make a statement, now feels that you shouldn't until Tuesday.
And Dick's judgment was predicated a little bit upon the same thing I was thinking.
He's very good.
With these specials tomorrow night...
The worst possible thing would be to have a raging debate, and then they show the President of the United States in the middle of it.
And have me get in it.
No, I'm not.
I'm going to wait.
I'm going to hold fire.
I think so, and I think the...
I don't worry.
And a few damn little stinking editors in the Midwest, I don't have to make a statement for them to prove anything.
Of course not.
One of the important things, really, is that when you looked at last night's program, and I think the same thing will happen tomorrow night, when they get into the substance of what they're talking about,
They talk about the Kennedy-Johnson administrations.
They don't talk about our administration.
And I think it's the more that the public opinion focuses on that, the better we are, which argues very strongly not to be in the middle of it.
By the way, the Today Show has Ellsberg tomorrow morning for the whole program.
He'll probably do well.
Well, I don't think so.
I think he hangs himself when he goes on because he's not credible.
He overstates, says things that are altogether too rash for public to believe, and he's not attractive.
Somebody will have drilled him now before this one.
Well, I don't mind him going on.
I think he helps paint himself in the corner every time he does it.
Well, get the...
You know, fellows like Meany and the rest, I hope they get stirred up about this.
They must be on our side, aren't they?
Oh, they are.
Meany put out a statement that didn't get much press during the heat of the thing.
And all of those fellows are strongly with us.
Conley reported to Bob this afternoon.
John Conley?
Yes.
Oh, yeah.
Feeling down there was very strongly against the New York, against the decision and against the Times, of course.
Great.
You'd expect that in Texas.
No, but Texas is a hell of a big state.
Sure it is.
And important.
It's not just southern, it's western.
Well, I think the casualty figures today, Mr. President, and the economic unemployment figures tomorrow... Well, that thing.
Now, you've got that all on salvo, haven't you?
We've got that on track.
We're going to have Hodgson over here to brief in the morning.
What?
Who?
Hodgson will brief in the morning.
Good.
That's good.
He's an upbeat guy.
Give him a chance to say some good things.
Well, and it's a good story.
You know, the adjustments...
The thing really isn't adjusted.
It really is, well, it's adjusted because of the seasonal adjustments.
Well, actually, there is a drop, Chuck.
This is pretty good news.
Oh, hell yes.
It may creep up a little in the summer, but that's all right.
Interesting figure that we've gotten out and we're going to plant with the networks.
The total employment since January 1st in this country has increased by 2.3 million jobs.
That's one heck of a lot of new jobs that have been created.
That's right.
And we're getting him out of the war.
You constantly get that.
Exactly.
Okay, well, let me know about White and Johnson.
I'll keep you informed.
Bill said he would keep in touch with me.
I'm sure we'll hear.
Fine, sir.