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Conversation 008-113

TapeTape 8StartMonday, September 13, 1971 at 1:31 PMEndMonday, September 13, 1971 at 1:38 PMTape start time05:17:35Tape end time05:24:45ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Rockefeller, Nelson A.Recording deviceWhite House Telephone
AudioNARA Description

On September 13, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Nelson A. Rockefeller talked on the telephone from 1:31 pm to 1:38 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 008-113 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 8-113

Date: September 13, 1971

Time: 1:31 pm - 1:38 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with Nelson A. Rockefeller.

[See Conversation No. 571-1C]
     New York
          -Attica prison uprising
                -The President's schedule
                      -Talk with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
                      -Rockefeller’s call
                            -President’s inability to return
                                  -Cabinet meeting
                                  -Business leaders meeting
                -Rockefeller's handling
                      -Amnesty
                            -Newspapers
                            -Possible consequences
                                  -Nation’s prisons
                -Casualties
                -Troops
                -Response by law authorities
                      -Rockefeller’s call
                      -Hostages
                            -Number
                      -Prisoners
                            -Number
                      -Helicopters
                            -Gas attack
                      -Sharpshooters
                -Report
                      -Seven hostage deaths
                            -Guards
                            -Time of death
                -Thirty-two prisoners killed
                      -Additional casualties
                -Blacks
                      -Killed
                -Response by law authorities
                      -Reasons for using force
                            -Killing guards
                            -Attacks on authority

                 -Trooper casualty
           -President’s view
                 -Admiration
                 -Anarchy
           -Russell G. Oswald
                 -Head of New York prisons
                 -Background
                 -John N. Mitchell
                 -Spiro T. Agnew
                 -National conspiracy theory
                 -Support for the President
                 -Television
                       -Puerto Ricans
                            -Killing
                       -Guard
                            -Castration
           -President’s view
           -Citizens Committee
                 -Thomas Grey (Tom”) Wicker
                       -Request of prisoners
                 -William Kunstler
                 -Head of Mau-Maus
                 -Legislators
                 -Wicker
                       -Support of prisoners
                 -Request for Rockefeller to come to Attica
                 -Wicker
                       -Amnesty
           -John V. Lindsay
           -Negotiations

Re-election
     -President’s prospects

Rockefeller’s possible trip to Puerto Rico
    -Stay in New York
          -Prison riots
          -Attica
                -Shipment of bodies
                      -Possible trouble
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

I have Governor Rockefeller for you, sir.
There you are.
I know you've had a hard day, but I want you to know that I just back you to the hilt.
And I was sitting here talking to Bob Haldeman.
I didn't get your call because I've had a cabinet meeting, and then I had a meeting with business leaders right afterwards, and I just got out.
But the courage you showed and the judgment in not granting amnesty, it was right, and I don't care what the hell the papers or anybody else says.
I don't care what they say.
I think that you had to do it that way because if you would have granted amnesty in this case, it would have meant that you would have had prisons in an uproar all over this country.
That's right.
And you did the right thing.
It's a tragedy that these poor fellows were shot, but I just want you to know that's my view, and I've told the troops around here and there to back that right to the hilt.
Well, aren't you great, Mr. President?
I only called you because I wanted to alert you that we were going in.
Right.
When we went in, we couldn't tell whether all 39 hostages would be killed and maybe 200 or 300 prisoners.
And that's a pretty big, you know.
But the way it worked out, there were about 1,200 prisoners.
By taking and putting down a gas attack from helicopters and then having sharpshooters on the walls, our own men, we were able to pick off...
either from the wall or as our men went in, the men who had the knives at the throat of the hostages, and they did a fabulous job.
How many?
I only got the report this morning.
What is the latest report?
How many people?
Seven hostages were killed.
Seven hostages were killed?
Yes, these were the guards.
Those are guards, seven.
years now, Mr. President, as though quite a few of those were killed prior to this.
In other words, that they'd been dead.
Uh-huh.
You can prove that, can't you?
I mean...
This is the hospital.
The hospital can prove that.
Oh, yeah.
They can find out how long a guy's dead.
That's right.
And it's a Catholic hospital, so it's outside of our jurisdiction.
Right.
How many prisoners were killed?
32.
32 prisoners killed.
32 prisoners, although we've just found in the last 10 minutes I got word two Puerto Rican prisoners who were tucked away in a tunnel who had had their throats slit four days ago.
Oh, jeez.
So that we're developing all kinds of... Tell me this.
Are these primarily blacks that you're dealing with?
Oh, yes.
The whole thing was led by the blacks.
Are all the prisoners that were killed blacks?
Are there any whites?
I haven't got that report, but I would say just offhand, yes.
We did it, though, only when they were in the process of murdering the guards or when they were attacking our people as they came in to get the guards.
You had to do it.
And otherwise, we were captured all the cell blocks and so forth without shooting a shot.
And no troopers were wounded.
One of them, well, one of them was in the leg.
Only one trooper was wounded.
Good.
That's right.
It really was a beautiful operation.
Well, they must have really been.
You can certainly tell your...
people there whoever they are your head of troopers that i have a great admiration for that that's an efficient operation that's wonderful of you well we back them up now that guy we're not going to have any that we just cannot tolerate this kind of uh
of anarchy.
Well, I think you're right.
And I'll tell you an interesting thing, Mr. President.
Russ Oswald, who is the head of our prison, is one of the noted prison reformers in the country.
I just put him in six months ago.
He was a, you'll be amused by this, he was a liberal Democrat from Wisconsin, went to Boston.
I'd had him as parole officer, chief of parole.
He did very well.
And I put him into this.
He told me that he has now come around to agree with Mr. Mitchell, John Mitchell, and Mr. Agnew that there is a national conspiracy.
He is supporting you for re-election.
And that he's going on television again this afternoon to reveal the details.
about what was going on there, including the murder of the Puerto Ricans and the castration of the guard and all that stuff.
We're really developing this in a way that I think will give a lesson to all of us.
Well, you've handled it with great firmness, with great skill, and...
courage, and I think that's what the country will, I think, appreciate.
And don't get me wrong, what the hell is Tom Wicker doing in this thing?
Well, you won't believe it.
We had a committee of citizens invited by the prisoners, 32 of them.
Tom Wicker was one.
We had that Kunzler, that lawyer.
Yeah, yeah, I know him.
We had the head of the Mau Mau's.
You know, a motley crowd.
Yeah.
And some good people, some legislators.
And Tom Wicker was so emotional in this thing that it was unbelievable.
Which side?
Oh, on their side.
Always, always, I know.
See, I had at the end, they were putting the pressure yesterday on me all day to go up there.
Ended up, because everything else had failed.
Did you go?
Of course not.
No, of course not.
But I had to talk to these guys, Wicker and all these people on the phone, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I said, look, I go up there.
We can't give amnesty.
The next thing is, well, we'll let them go if you'll just come into the courtyards.
Yeah.
You know.
Yeah.
Whether in front of all the men.
Did Wicker, was he recommending amnesty?
Oh, yes.
Oh, God.
Oh, you listen.
This is a great, this separated the sheep from the goats.
Oh, boy.
Oh, boy.
What is your, what is your, what is your, the New Democrats going to say about this?
Mr. Lindsey.
Our police, our protection officer.
No, no, no, no.
Lindsey.
Oh, brother, well, we should worry.
The convert.
Oh, he'll probably say that if I'd gone up, all these deaths would have been saved.
No, sir.
No, sir.
But I noticed he didn't go into the prison when they had the problem down here.
No, no, no.
But I think it was tough, but I think we did the right thing.
You did.
Four days of negotiating.
Yeah.
So everybody had a chance.
That's right.
Well, you're awfully nice to call, and we'll do the mopping up now.
Just keep right of your guns.
Okay.
I think things are looking awful good for next year for you.
Well, you won't go to Puerto Rico, I suppose.
No, I don't think so.
I think I'd better stay here.
We might have another, you know, in another prison, or we might have some riots in some of the areas.
And when these bodies are sent back, we're bound to have some trouble.
Yeah.
You can, as I said, anybody you want concerned that I called.
Okay.
I'll tell them all, and they'll really appreciate it.
I know this is a terribly tough thing, but we have to have firmness in enforcing the law.
Well, our whole group stood, and they were good.
Fine, fine.
Okay, Mr. President.
Thank you.
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