Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 9 › Conversation 009-008

Kissinger & Rogers on Montoya Amendment and Vietnam War

Tuesday, September 14, 1971 · 6:18 PM–6:35 PM ET · White House Telephone · 7 min

ParticipantsKissinger, Henry A.; Rogers, William P.; Kissinger, Henry A.; Rogers, William P.Conversation009-008 on Tape 9 (tape position 00:10:37–00:17:38)StartTuesday, September 14, 1971 at 6:18 PMEndTuesday, September 14, 1971 at 6:35 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 009-008 ↗

AI Summary

Henry Kissinger and William Rogers discuss the potential political fallout from the Montoya Amendment regarding military assistance to South Vietnam and the precarious position of President Nguyen Van Thieu. They express concern that internal instability in South Vietnam, combined with domestic congressional pressure, threatens U.S. policy objectives. The pair also coordinate scheduling for an upcoming National Security Council meeting and prepare for the diplomatic arrival of Soviet Foreign Minister Andrei Gromyko.

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Hello?
Hi, Henry.
Hi, Phil.
I was just talking to the president.
That's why I couldn't get to you.
That's right.
I called him, told him about it.
Yeah, he told me.
I didn't know whether you've seen it or not.
Not yet, no.
He told me about it.
I think it's going to cause us some trouble.
I'm not sure what to do about it.
I've sent out a copy of it to Bunker and told them that we think there's a possibility that it will attract some support.
in the Senate.
The fact is, we think it's likely to attract a hell of a lot of support.
Dave Abshaw feels it might even carry.
The difficulty is that I don't know what to recommend to Bunker.
Well, I think the problem now is that almost anything he does is going to be too little to appeal to the domestic people and maybe too much for his own position.
Probably.
And my own view is, you know, it's a disaster what he did and what the result of it was.
But on the other hand, I also think he's the only asset almost we've got left for... Because if he falls, we have to negotiate with his successor to get out instead of Hanoi.
Yeah.
Well, the...
I think that's right.
Our problem is with Congress.
You see, the problem is that he has said, he's been sort of stupid.
This is the first thing he's been totally stupid about.
He was stupid as hell to say that if military assistance is cut off by the United States, then I'll resign.
Yeah.
Because Montoya will argue, well, I'm just helping out now.
We'll pass this, force you to resign, then we'll have an election.
Yeah, yeah.
But then he'll be through.
Then everything will unravel.
That's right.
That's the problem.
Well, it might, you know, if he had any support, if he can win the election,
Well, it isn't the problem of his being able to.
The tragedy is that he would have been able to win the election, even if it had been honest.
The question is that if he...
I don't think that the Vietnamese are outraged at a rigged election.
The impact is at home.
And the freedom they now feel to attack him
under the impact of American lack of approbation, he's going through the DM syndrome.
That's what's eroding his support.
He could write out a rigged election within South Vietnam.
He'd even gain a little credit for it.
I don't know whether you've ever seen a George Carver analysis, but it's our lack of approbation which we can't cure alone.
If he now cancels the election, my guess is that this would be such a loss of face for him that that would shake his position.
But let's see what Bunker comes back with.
The President wanted to mention two other things to you, Bill.
One is he's thinking of holding an NFC meeting on Saturday morning, either at Camp David or in Florida, about reviewing where we stand now in Vietnam.
My son is getting married Saturday.
Oh, really?
Well, if that's not the best excuse in the world, I don't know what it is.
You don't want to skip in?
I would, except I'm the best man.
Anytime a son asks you to be a best man these days, you better grab it.
My God, that's a historic event.
Well, I'll mention that to the president, and I'm sure he'll attest that.
The second is, I don't know whether you've seen The Evening Star, but Mal is again beginning to pop off.
No, I haven't.
That all forces would be out of Vietnam by spring
And, you know, whatever we want to do, we ought to, A, leave for the president, and, B, hold back as long as we possibly can.
Well, I don't know.
You don't have to explain.
No, well, you've been tremendous on this.
We don't have to convince you.
It's just that at that NSC meeting, the president would enormously appreciate it if you could take a strong line on that and say how disastrous it would be.
It will be.
Without mentioning anything in particular, if you just...
I saw Clark McGregor made some statement, too, didn't he?
Yes, I've raised holy cane with him, too.
If we could insist that in this closing phase we all maintain complete discipline.
I mean, as you have, it's just... That's right.
Well, I'm available any time next week for a Security Council meeting.
I would like to...
I'd want to be there.
Oh, no, you've got to be there.
There's no other way of doing it.
And I will...
In this case, there's no substitute for you.
I'll keep in touch with you.
The president may want to have some other sort of meeting, but we'll pick a subject in which it isn't essential that you be there.
Okay.
Is he going to Florida this weekend?
He's thinking of it.
Monday is a possibility then.
That'd be good.
Why don't... Can you do it Monday?
Sure.
Okay.
We'll do that then.
Okay.
That'd be good.
Matter of fact, I'd like to get a couple of days in Florida because...
I'm going to have one hell of a schedule in New York.
Oh, that's right.
When are you going up there?
Well, I won't go up full time until after the Gromyko visit, but then I'll be there for about two weeks, and they're going to have about 60 foreign ministers, and they all want to see me.
And this time, there's a hell of a lot to talk about.
Incidentally, in case you don't know yet, Vorontsov told us when he talked about the...
he sent over a letter that the daughter of that astronaut to whom the President sent a personal note, wrote in reply to the President, you know, it's just a thank you note to the President about the handwritten letter of condolence he wrote to her.
He said that Gromyko was arriving on the 19th with Sabrina, and you probably know that.
Yeah.
No, I wasn't sure it was that early on the 19th.
Yeah, in New York.
Well, I knew he was arriving.
I knew he was arriving sometime early next week.
That's really on Sunday, isn't it?
That's on Sunday, so he'll be there.
You'll have the pleasure of his company.
Yeah, too much.
Okay, well, maybe you and I could get together this week before you go away to review some of these.
I think we should do it, yeah.
Maybe Thursday?
Thursday would be good.
Well, as a matter of fact, maybe we could do it tomorrow afternoon.
Thursdays, I was going to go up.
I've got my whole family collecting Thursday night in New York.
And then we have Friday, we have rehearsal business.
Well, then let's do it tomorrow.
Okay, good.
Fine, I'll give you a call.
Right, bye.

NARA Description

On September 14, 1971, Henry A. Kissinger and William P. Rogers talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 6:18 pm and 6:35 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 009-008 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 9-8

Date: September 14, 1971
Time: Unknown between 6:18 pm and 6:35 pm
Location: White House Telephone

Henry A. Kissinger talked with William P. Rogers.

[See Conversation No. 278-36F]

     Kissinger’s conversation with the President

     Joseph M. Montoya's Amendment
          -Military Procurement Act
          -Possible trouble
          -Copy to Ellsworth F. Bunker
                -Question of support in Senate
                -David M. Abshire
          -Question of recommendation to Bunker
          -Reaction of public

******************************************************************************

[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number
LPRN-T-MDR-2014-012. Segment declassified on 12/01/2017. Archivist: JD]
[National Security]
[009-008-w001]
[Duration: 4s]

     Joseph M. Montoya's Amendment

         -Asset use

******************************************************************************

    Joseph M. Montoya's Amendment
         -Negotiations
         -Administration
         -Amendment
              -Military assistance
                    -Nguyen Van Thieu's threatened resignation
                          -Relation to amendment
         -Vietnam
              -Elections
              -Thieu
                    -Ngo Dinh Diem
              -George Carver
              -Election cancellation
              -Bunker

    National Security Council [NSC] meeting
         -Time
         -Place
         -Vietnam
         -Rogers’ son's marriage
               -Best man

    News stories
        -The Evening Star
        -Vietnam
              -Melvin R. Laird
              -Military forces
              -Question of withdrawal
                    -Time
              -Question of public information
              -NSC meeting
                    -Position of NSC members
              -Clark MacGregor
                    -Talk with Kissinger

    NSC meeting
        -Rogers’ attendance

     The President's schedule
          -Florida
                -Time
                      -Rogers
     Rogers’ schedule
          -Possible trip to Florida
          -New York
                -Andrei A. Gromyko
                -Foreign Ministers

     Soviet Union
          -Relations with US
          -Yuli M. Vorontsov
          -Correspondence with President
                -Astronaut’s daughter
                -Note to the President
          -Gromyko
                -Arrival in US
                -Time
                -Anatoliy F. Dobrynin
                -Meeting with Rogers

     Meeting between Henry A. Kissinger and Rogers
          -Time
          -Rogers’ schedule

Also recorded on September 14, 1971

  • 009-003 5:35 PM · 5 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 5:35 pm and 5:39 pm.
  • 009-004 5:39 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and William P. Rogers talked on the telephone from 5:39 pm to 5:42 pm.
  • 278-036 5:39 PM · 33 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, William P. Rogers, Henry A. Kissinger, White House operator, Nelson A. Rockefeller, and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 5:39 pm to 6:35 pm.
  • 009-005 6:07 PM · 5 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 6:07 pm and 6:13 pm.
  • 009-006 6:13 PM · 5 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Nelson A. Rockefeller talked on the telephone from 6:13 pm to 6:18 pm.
  • 009-007 6:18 PM · 13 sec — Henry A. Kissinger and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 6:18 pm and 6:35 pm.
  • 278-037 6:35 PM · 6 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 6:35 pm and 6:40 pm.
  • 278-038 6:35 PM · 53 sec — President Richard M. Nixon, Manolo Sanchez, and Patrick J. Buchanan met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 6:35 pm and 6:40 pm.

All 37 conversations from September 14, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 009-008, September 14, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/009-008 (accessed October 9, 2026).