Conversation 009-010

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Mm-hmm.

Hello?

Yes, sir.

Oh, excuse me, Mr. President.

I have Mr. Haldeman.

Do you want him to wait?

Yeah.

No, I'm on.

There you are.

Oh, Bob, I didn't want to bother you, but one subject that, to my surprise, Henry brought up, which will be referred to you, and I just wanted to put you on it, was that Reston was in to see him.

You're kidding.

Yeah, and I said, well, what do you want to see?

He said, well, he, Reston...

asked for an interview with the President on the ground that he did an interview with Zhou Enlai.

I said, now look, Henry, I didn't even let him finish his sentence.

I said, no, I'm not going to do it.

And I said, first, as I told you, there would be no interviews with the New York Times under any circumstances for the Pentagon Papers.

And second, I said, I'm not going to see Rustin after what he did with Zhou Enlai.

And Henry said, well, he says, I agree.

He says, I told him that I did nothing to do with these things, and I referred it to Haldeman.

So, but you see what I mean?

Henry, of course, is trying, I guess, you know, with his usual concern about the times.

But let me just say this.

I don't care who it is, and

Scali, Ziegler, Moore, Klein, anybody else, they can come along with all the business that, well, you really ought to see the Times, and, you know, and it's a question of, it's like going to the White House Correspondents thing, and he's very important, and if you don't see him, he's going to write something bad, and so forth.

Now, the worst thing I could do, I put it to Henry just cold turkey, I really gave him hell, I said, Henry, look, if I see Scotty Rustin and give him an exclusive interview,

What do you think this does to the very few friends and their goddamn few we have in the press that I haven't given personal interviews to?

What do you think it does to them?

It kills them.

So I just wanted you to know that, and I'd like for you to really raise it tomorrow, and I want the goddamn staff to understand, and he must not have understood this, that the blackout on the Times is total.

Well, he understood it.

He stood in your office when we talked about this, and you made the point to him that he was not to see Rustin, that you would not see Rustin.

That's right.

Well, whether he talked to him or whether he was in, I don't know, but I gathered he was in.

But the point is that he would even refer it to me was amazing.

He would even talk to us in the beginning.

You've got to tell Henry he must not talk to him.

He's valuable.

He must not talk to him, period, under penalties of, frankly, dismissal.

Now, God damn it, I'm not going to have it.

And don't you agree?

I sure do.

This is not a question of vengeance or this or that or the other thing.

It's just a point that we are not going to get anything out of Reston except a bad shake.

And he did us in in that he did his best to do us in.

It didn't turn out that way particularly due to show and lies cooperation.

But we cannot allow, we cannot have our people get soft because of their trying to suck up to some of these goddamn newspaper people.

If I were going to give an interview, why would I give it to a newspaper man anyway?

Give it to a television man.

Huh?

Darn right.

Why do I waste my time, you know, being examined by this son of a bitch?

He will never be in my office as long as I'm president.

Never.

And no man from the Times will ever be in my office as long as I'm president.

It isn't worth it.

You agree?

I sure do.

That's it.

That's the way it's going to be.

I'm just astonished that he talked to him and that he would raise it with you.

Well, he'll tell you that he didn't press it, but he didn't.

But he didn't press it when I jumped in awful fast.

But I said, no, Henry, I'm not going to do it.

And then he said, I agree.

But I put it on the basis of the Pentagon Papers.

But the point is that they're working on it.

I don't want him to see him, though.

I want you to tell Henry he should not talk to Reston.

Why should he?

Well, he shouldn't.

Reston doesn't have a goddamn thing to talk about that he hasn't already published.

You know that.

Henry's

And he'll only be in to get what Henry gives him rather than to give anything for our benefit.

And I'm just going to, I think we just cut the son of a bitch out.

I mean, that's all there is to it.

And so it'll be raised.

Let it come up in its natural way when it comes up, when he raises it with you.

And you just

Actually, with complete astonishment, why, Henry, you didn't consider it, did you?

So you're not going to see him, are you, Henry?

So forth.

Then, you know, go on, and then, but I want you to, as I said, I want Ziegler, Scali, Klein, you know, the others who might talk to us, and Sapphire, to know they are not to talk to the New York Times.

That order is on, and it's final.

Nobody from the New York Times is to be talked to.

The only exception I made is Dale.

That's the only one.

Yep.

And there aren't going to be any others.

None.

Absolutely none, period.

Except in press conferences.

Not simple.

Nobody.

You're not going to gain anything by softening up on these people.

The same is true of Time.

The same is true of Newsweek.

Is that clear?

Yep.

I mean, are we enforcing this or not?

What astonished me, Bob, is that he asked the question, and I just thought that something had gone wrong on the enforcement side, that our people would...

I suppose it's time lapses and they forget.

No, they don't forget.

And Henry, of all people, doesn't forget.

He, of all people, he's the one guy that's had the order directly from you.

Yeah.

He and Ziegler.

He and Ziegler were there.

But you couldn't have hit him harder on the point before we went out to California.

Now, the arguments will all be made.

I'll give them to you all.

You know what they are, that the Times is important, and getting even a half-ass story is better than getting a completely flat story.

It isn't important to begin with.

And second, it's terribly distressing to other people.

And third, what the hell are they going to do?

So they're going to write that the president refused to see him.

That's just too goddamn bad, isn't it?

So, but the point is, Reston, if he comes in, will only do us in.

He always has, and he will now.

And I'm not going to, I just, I'm not even, incidentally, you shouldn't call him back either.

I just have somebody, I wouldn't, and Ziegler shouldn't call him back.

I think he should just have a second man at his office.

Okay.

Calls.

Don't you agree?

Yeah.

Why should Ziegler call him?

Well, I sure won't talk to him.

Well, naturally, I mean, but I see no reason for Ziegler to get into it.

I just have to say it.

Or I just let it rest and let him ask again.

Yeah.

Or something like that.

I don't know.

But I just don't want the, or no, no, the best thing to do is if he has promised an answer,

It's just to have somebody from Ziegler's office, a secretary or something, say, I'm sorry, the president isn't giving any interviews at this time.

Period.

When will he?

I'm sorry.

And let him swear.

God damn him.

Boy, I'm telling you, we've just got to be tough on these people.

All right.

And now, let me say, where it's a television man, all together different.

That's right.

For Christ's sakes, for Christ's sakes, it's worth it if you have to, you know, eat crow and shit and everything else.

But not with the New York Times or the Los Angeles Times or Time, Newsweek or the Washington Post.

It is not that important to us, is it?

No.

That's my view, at least.

No, it definitely isn't.

It'll come up in a meeting, I'm sure.

And when it does, my views should be expressed just as toughly as that.

Okay.

No doubts about it.

Whatever.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Okay.

Right.

Fine, bye.