On September 22, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone from 6:31 pm to 6:48 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 009-130 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Yeah.
Mr. President, I have Mr. Colson.
Did you want Mr. Ziegler first?
No, no.
I'll take Colson and then Ziegler.
Thank you, sir.
Mr. President.
Yes, sir, Mr. President.
You know, I didn't think the Star headlines were bad.
It says prices edge up despite freeze.
What the hell?
Yeah, you just...
It's sort of negative in a sense, but the story is not that bad.
Oh, no, the story itself, and as I say, Hutch and stuff played very well.
No, I just, I guess I was overly sensitive.
Well, the main thing is that we've got to get all of our people...
And it's hard.
I mean, I've told Holland time and again that they need it.
The only cheerleader we got in the cabinet is Connolly.
But Romney ought to do, you know, he could lead a few chairs.
Romney and Volpe are both optimistic types.
They are either types.
And I think that they need to sort of buck up fellows that are, you know, less, well, you know,
effervescent.
That's right.
Everybody ought to just be up, actually, this is working.
It's working.
Of course it's working.
The country feels better, but our people have got our, have it written all over their faces when they go out.
I just hope they are.
No, I didn't, I hope I didn't convey the impression I was discouraged because...
I know you're not, but I meant are they?
No, I don't think so.
The thing that just makes you mad when you, when you know goddamn well that the figure has anything to do with the freeze.
That's right.
That they say despite the freeze it edges up.
Well, the thing is that...
On that man, though, I wonder if we can't find, and this is a long shot, why not take a fellow like Herb Stein?
I mean, as you know, there are 19 out of those 21 are Jewish.
Take a Stein and put him over there and throw more out.
I don't know.
I just don't know.
But I really think you need a tough fellow that can handle those goddamn people.
Well, you do.
The only reason we don't want to throw more out, of course, is he's so close to Arthur Burns that Burns would then, we'd have another problem with Arthur.
And that's the only reason.
Other than that, Moore is basically a weak, spineless son of a bitch who's letting them ride over him, isn't he?
Yes, clearly.
Do you agree or not?
Oh, totally, Mr. President.
God, he doesn't know what's going on in the place.
Can't you talk to Arthur?
about it?
Maybe and say, no, Arthur, we're getting screwed.
Well, no, Arthur, he doesn't want the figures to be good.
Well, he would now.
He would now, yeah.
I think today's figures might upset Arthur.
Today's headline will upset Arthur because...
He's the one that advocated all this.
Oh, Christ.
He has to...
This has to come out from his standpoint.
He's really... No, I think it's working.
My God, we've
We've heard from thousands of businesses who are... Well, you know it's working because...
They're complying, they're competing, they're running ads, they're having sales.
I don't think these people are reflecting it.
Look, they've got a lot of goddamn pipsqueak bureaucrats all around, and boy, we've got to fight these people right to the death.
Well, we do.
Let me tell you, I want to be sure...
that Schultz knows that I expect a real son of a bitch to be in that job.
I don't want some weak one.
You know how George is.
He's always interested in who's the best man.
The hell with the best man.
I want the toughest man.
That's right.
I'll tell you a good man, Weinberger, that kind of a guy.
Weinberger would be superb.
Of course, that's come down for Cap, but he would be the right kind of a guy.
You can't move him over there.
No, we have a couple of tough fellas.
Harold Passer's assistant is one of the ones that we want to bring over.
He's totally political.
and he's done miracles with the figures out of commerce you don't see any bad figures anymore right they know how to do it now right and he's uh well the thing that i was thinking is on the employment figures i'd like for you to to to go over those figures where there are states where our state figures are i'd like to break out the federal figures and let's get a god let's get
10 or 15 columns on that.
And a few speeches made.
The people say, by God, business is better than what the hell's the matter with the BLS?
And attack us.
See, let them attack us for it.
Well, the senators from those states would love to do that.
Why don't we do that?
If we got their figures.
Right.
I really think, take New York.
New York comes down to 5.6%.
Now, if New York is 5.6, Chuck, the national average has got to be 5.5.
Because New York's a little worse than the national average.
That's correct.
Because California will be above New York, but not much.
It'll be maybe 5.9.
No, and then you take states like Virginia.
But the South is all less than 4.
Oh, yeah.
It's all as an employment shortage.
And Texas.
Texas.
Texas is in good shape.
Florida, 3.46.
Illinois?
The Midwest is, Illinois is not bad.
Ohio is not bad.
Illinois, by the BLS figures, is just under 5.
And yet you go to Illinois and they say, gee, things are bad.
The reason is they hear it from these goddamn media and our figures.
That's right.
Well, I think Malik told me today, Mr. President, I laid into him kind of hard this morning.
He told me today that he had
Now down to two men, one of whom I'm pushing because I know he's a guy we can work with totally.
Put him right under Moore and let him run it.
What are they going to give Goldstein then?
He goes into a completely different position.
Is he unhappy?
No.
Promote him a little.
Give him a little more money.
I think he expected it.
I think he was.
You mean he thinks he was doing us in and expected it?
Well, I was amused to get the report that he wasn't a bit surprised at being told he was being transferred.
And not unhappy.
And I think he figured his time was up.
None of the guys have you ever met him?
No, I haven't.
But the descriptions of him.
He's damn smart.
And I've listened to him.
He used to do their monthly recordings, and I would listen to that.
He's always smart as hell.
Smart, pistol-sharp, cunning, liberal Democrat Jew.
That's all.
But now, God damn it.
But he's out as a Friday.
Put him out.
Give him a good job.
But for God's sakes, what is Moore just an old, I imagine an old maid accountant type.
Right.
Exactly.
He looks like he should have a green visor and things on his arm.
God damn it, why we took him for marker.
I don't know.
He's pedantic as hell.
Very non-political.
Very offended at the
being involved in politics.
He's just a... And so these smart young Jews... Take him over.
You know, I don't... Of course, naturally, we don't check the religion on this.
You gave me the politics.
But I found that 19 out of the 21 are Jews.
Oh, yeah.
You could through that list.
The whole goddamn thing.
Goldstein brought them in.
What the hell do you think they're going to do to us but kick us?
It reads like benign breath.
It's wild.
Now...
That doesn't mean they're all disloyal.
It doesn't mean they're all dishonest.
But geez, it does mean that somebody that leads them can just kill us.
And this is the most important thing we can do.
I mean, they talk about the appointment of Secretary of Agriculture, Commerce.
It doesn't mean anything.
Nothing compared to these monthly figures.
And poor old George doesn't understand this, or does he?
Because he understands these figures kill us every month.
Yeah, I have the feeling, Mr. President, that just recently George has really been...
Shaken?
Yeah.
Hodgson is a weak man.
He's a nice man, but rather weak.
But George is a strong man.
Now, George ought to understand this and say, God damn it, we're not going to be screwed.
You know?
That's exactly right.
Well, I think, really, I think this week we've got it licked.
Hodgson has...
finally set a date you know a hell of a job getting him to say he would do it by a certain date he's agreed now that by the 24th this friday he will he will have it done a reorganization and he's now waiting for us to pick one of two men both of them i think are good one i know is good and uh i'll take the one you know and and he's plenty tough and we'll we'll have a long talk with him about uh challenging these bastards and not only challenge them but
But where you've got to make a judgment call as to whether it's, you know, whether the point is up or down, you know, sometimes these are six-tenths of a percent, and you round it out to one above or one below.
Well, God damn it, just round it below.
That's right.
Well, you know.
Not only that.
The other thing is, though, that I am convinced that the state figures are probably much more accurate than ours.
Sure, they're based on much more firsthand information.
That's right.
And ours are, you know, they go around here.
and uh of course it's good to have the state figures come out like the new york that new york headline was damn good to have that was a hell of a plus that headline anybody reading that would would have a good you know would have a good bullish look at new york and new york's about whether an unemployment if if it's five as you say if it's five six in new york you know it isn't much higher except maybe a pocket here there in michigan or los angeles michigan los and basically it's michigan los angeles well seattle doesn't matter because it doesn't have many people
But it's Michigan, Los Angeles, San Diego, and...
Some parts of Connecticut.
Well, Connecticut doesn't matter either.
Connecticut and New Jersey are too small.
It's only New York, California, basically, and the South that matter, and the Midwest.
Well, the Midwest is rather solid.
It's a little below 5%, right?
Mm-hmm.
So what the hell?
The South is below 4%.
That's right.
So then you look at California.
Well, California's high.
It's...
It's as high as 6%, right?
Six and a half.
I think statewide, yes, it's 6.6 or 7, I think.
Yeah, maybe 7.
But it'll come down.
It'll come down.
And when it comes, it'll go with a real gallop because that's a very volatile state.
That's right.
And the industries that create it are volatile, the aerospace industries.
Right.
And also, California will have an enormous...
They'll reflect their retail sales and...
Because it's basically a state where people buy cars and refrigerators and houses.
Very big consumer state with a personal income.
That's right.
But you say Finch said he felt that things were better out there.
He made the point this morning.
I raised this at the 815 meeting because I just wanted to kick over a little bit of China.
And I raised this GLS situation again.
And Finch said, yeah.
I mentioned the New York thing.
And Finch said, yeah.
So the same thing in Los Angeles.
The local figures are a hell of a lot less than the federal.
And I have asked for all of the figures nationally to compare every state figure against the BLS.
Now let's get the figures and let's go after them.
And that will make the BLS stand up and take notice that we're watching the bastards.
That's right.
Senators and congressmen.
I consider this more important than the Pentagon Papers.
I really do.
Well, I think in terms of the politics it is.
Because basically people are going to read these figures and say, are we succeeding or aren't we succeeding?
And, you know, these Democrats come in and whine around, wring their hands about unemployment and the rest.
Well, the bastards, Christ, they had more unemployment in Kennedy's three years than we have.
Oh, sure.
You look at those monthly figures.
Six percent.
Well, Kennedy was up at seven for part of 1961.
I know.
And also it was, it averaged six percent.
That's right.
Six percent for three years.
In one way, Mr. President, we might be going to reap the harvest of the screwing that I think we probably have been taking in the sense that they've added so much to that workforce this year.
It's phenomenal numbers, three and a half million.
I know.
That as the next months go on, I don't see how they can't keep adding to it, especially if we have somebody over there who challenges it.
And if they don't add to the workforce, then the normal growth in employment is going to have that percentage going steadily down.
Psychologically, that feeds on itself.
So it may turn out to have been a hell of a blessing to have 6.1 come popping out of Edison.
Well, I'll tell you this.
Next month is going to be lower than 6.1.
Has to be.
Has to be.
Has to be.
And if it isn't, we're...
We're not in trouble, but we know somebody's lying.
At that point, I would be positively convinced of it.
But I think it will be.
No, I'm sure it's going to be.
It has to be.
And incidentally, when it does, we ought to scream from the housetops.
All of this, you know, some of our people are getting so goddamn naive, they say, oh, we can't talk about the good figures because next month might be bad.
To hell with it.
Yeah, we want to talk about every good month and ignore every bad month.
Sure, that's what they do.
When it's bad, the media take care of it for us.
That's right.
When it's good, just kick the hell out of them.
But you were asking me earlier, are our people up?
Yes, Romney, when I talked to him this afternoon, you know, dealing with these cabinet members, they're an odd bunch, but after they get... Romney's a good man.
He is.
He's a decent fellow.
His heart is alive.
And he's agreed, and he said, Chuck, you give me a good, tough speech, and I'll use it, and maybe a press conference.
And Volpe, of course, is...
Christ.
You'll do anything.
We talked to John Volpe, Mr. President, and I'll tell you, he told me the story of his speech before the Laborers' Convention this week, which is a tough crowd.
Of course, there's a lot of Italians in it.
And he talked about you and about your economic, I read his speech, about his economic program.
In fact, we helped him write it.
And he said he kept getting standing ovations when he talked about you.
No booing, no negatives.
I'm glad I had him at the auto thing yesterday.
We stood in line, shook hands together.
He very much appreciated that.
Well, he deserved it.
He's fighting for us.
He's a loyal scout.
He goes out and does it.
But he's up, and Romney's up.
They feel good, do they?
Yes, sir.
They think things are going well?
Oh, yes.
Yeah, they have their little petty bitches.
Oh, sure.
But basically, now, they're up in stands.
My God.
Romney ought to be up 2,200,000 starts.
It's unbelievable.
It sure as hell is.
He takes full credit for it.
Give it to him.
Sure.
Tell him, I think he did it.
He loves to go out and talk about that.
Yeah.
He'll help us also.
But Stans, of course, he doesn't have any charisma, but he's really a loyal fellow.
He's a fighter.
All with us.
I said, tomorrow, today, will you have a press conference Tuesday to talk about how well business has responded, but also kick the Democrats.
He said, if that's what you fellas want me to do, I'll do it.
Oh, yes.
Kick the hell out of them.
So he's a loyal soul.
Conley is meeting with the Coastal Living Council tomorrow, and we talked yesterday about giving him the pep talk and telling him to get
out and start talking out in the cities what did he say and uh he's gonna do it or not oh yes oh yes how's he feel well he was very up last night he just come back from ways and means yeah when i talked to him and he said things were going great he was he gave me a very we're going to get through there you see on ways and means they're going to not give us what we want but they'll give us seven percent across the board which is fine they're going to give us more on
one thing that we want and a little less on the rest, but we're going to get it through.
On balance we are, that's right.
That's right.
And he's been doing a good job up there with him.
And, no, he was up last night.
I said, are you tired and kind of weary?
He said, no, no, I love it.
Right in the middle of the fight is where he likes to be.
And he, I suggested to him.
What does he think of these figures?
Did you talk to him about these?
I haven't talked to him today.
I probably should call him and explain them because he probably doesn't understand how they work either.
I think you should.
Well, I'll explain it to him how they work.
how the uh because he's a good fighter and we must keep him well you don't have to keep him up because he's different from so many of our others he never gets down he always says well when the hell you know and yeah he said when they're they cave in on the right and they cave in the left we attack in the center well i said to him last night i said john i've been reading the watching the wires we've been getting a little more criticism the last few days than we should he said well then
That just means, Chuck, it's time to touch him up a bit.
That's right.
Good Texas expression.
We'll touch him up.
No, he's good.
I will call him and explain this to him because he should be prepared for it.
Right.
Okay.
Well, now you just keep everybody charged up, you know.
Yes, sir.
All the way.
Don't let them.
No reason to be down.
Oh, hell no.
And the main reason is it's working.
I have a
real confidence that, look, the economy's moved up.
For Christ's sakes, it's moved up in the first quarter.
It moved up in the second quarter.
It's moved up in the third quarter.
I mean, if it were the Democrats were in, they'd be in the room from the roof.
That's right.
And it's moving up without war, and we've taken two and a half million people out of the armed services and put that through them every time you can.
It's better to have people working for peace than to have our prosperity built on killing men in Vietnam.
That's right.
I kicked the hell out of them on that.
They hate to hear it, but put it out there.
Brock did a superb job with that.
Where was that?
He did it out in Colorado, and he...
He got a lot of coverage in the Midwest.
He didn't get much back here.
That's all right.
But that very line, he was saying that this president has brought the men home.
They're not dying in Vietnam.
And he's ended this war.
Of course, he's a good, tough guy when he gets out.
He was with a bunch of kids, and he got a hell of a good response, young people.
Good.
So we'll keep him hooked up.
And Conley will give him a good goose tomorrow, and we'll keep the spirits up.
Right.
Okay.
Thank you, sir.