Conversation 011-086

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The Attorney General.

Good morning, Mr. President.

Hi, John.

I think that Bar Association, apparently I suppose they put that story out, makes it imperative that we're going to have to move quicker on that court thing now.

Did they, I was rather, I was wondering,

They, of course, weren't authorized to do that.

To do what, Mr. President?

To put out the story with the pictures and so forth of the names that we'd submitted to them.

They've never done that before.

Well, the newspapers, of course, have picked up the names from the bar.

Who at the bar would do that, John?

The boys working on the staff or something, I suppose.

Well, it would be the staff, and it would probably be some of the Democrat members.

You know, there are a lot of Democrats on that as well as Republicans on that committee.

Send up a half a dozen more names.

Would you do that?

Just to keep it confused.

Could you get just, you know, like send down that dean of that law school and three or four others.

I don't want to limit it to this.

Send down one of those Jewish, send Levy's name in too.

Would you do that, please?

Get that done right away, okay?

I've got to do it because I just can't leave this hanging here.

for a week now without...

Which type of names?

Oh, I don't give a damn who they are.

I mean, some Jews and liberals and so forth, you know, like Levy of Chicago.

He'd be all right.

Send him up as a name.

Well, if you do that, of course, then... Well, then, all right.

Send Johnson of that other one down there.

Frank Johnson?

Not Johnson, but the...

We've already sent Clark.

You could send the fellow from the law school down there.

You could at least, you know, from Texas.

Right.

Right, yeah.

Just pick out, if you can, John, any kind of names that are conservative enough.

Powell or somebody, I don't know.

Well, if we do that, Mr. President, the press is going to focus on these people.

to the point where you will be run over with newspaper talk urging you to point them.

That's right, for not having done it.

Well, how about the, are there any you can think of of that sort, just to confuse some, so we just aren't served in here, because they're going to tear these to pieces.

I mean, they will always seize on what you've got as mediocrities and so forth and so on.

That's what I'm concerned about.

Well, if we go another route, we're going to trap ourselves into the point of...

The thing that I've become convinced of, the bar broke its pick with me.

The next time we have an appointment, they aren't going to get a chance to look at it, John.

Good God.

I have more judgment, and you have more judgment on who the hell ought to be is qualified as a court.

Now, what the hell does the bar know about it?

I mean, good God, I can take a bar examination better than any of those assholes.

I agree with you.

The bar is not doing this.

This is what we would expect with anybody we sent up.

That's why we're not going to give them a chance again.

They have broken their pick, and I don't want you to tell them that because I know you need them for district courts and the rest, but believe me, never again do they get a crack at me.

They didn't do this with Berger, you know.

But now they have done it, and they didn't do it with Blackmun, but they've broken their pick on us.

Well, of course, those announcements were made, Mr. President, without consultation with anybody.

But we went through the bar, though.

No, no, we did not.

We did not go through the bar.

That was our mistake here, then, I guess, letting the bar have a crack at it.

Well, every time you start a check, the word gets out as to who they are, and the press is going to take you on whether it's the bar or not.

I think our strategy was right the other time.

I mean, just not to ask the bar.

They squeal, but that's...

I'm really sick of the bastards anyway.

They're such a bunch of sanctimonious assholes.

But I've told Ehrlichman to get off his ass and get me the little check he's got to make, because I really think we've got to get it done now.

So that we, I mean, I don't, I mean, they're really going to tear this, they're going to jump up and down on this now.

Well, I expect Barr to be helpful in this picture by coming out with the solid approvals of Friday and Lilly.

But at Barr, the only thing is they...

They've got six names up here and they're going to be just cracking around on them until we get ready to move.

When can the bar be ready and be helpful?

We haven't had an answer yet.

We're pushing them and hopefully it'll be done.

We'll get it by tomorrow.

I don't think that Walsh will be able to get his committee together by that time.

It'll probably be the weekend.

What would be their line then?

just to say that they approve, too.

Yeah, that's what we've asked them to do, to approve Lilly and Friday, which I presume that you had concentrated on.

Yeah, that's what we want to do, yeah.

Well, I think if you could push it faster, I just, I told Ehrlichman I've got to have his stuff for tomorrow so that we could, as soon as I get it from the bar, I think we're just going to have to go with it.

Just to, I don't want to

You see, the situation is, you know, that was the mistake I made with Poff, was to let him be up there and then cannibalize him.

I just don't want our guys to get killed before we get a chance to get in with the positive stuff first.

See, the first story is so important on these things, on any appointment, as you know.

And, well, if you could just tell us, we're just terribly interested to get it done now.

They don't have to check too damn long on somebody like Friday that's practiced for 25 years.

Or Lilly, who's been on the bench 25 years.

I mean, Friday and Lilly ought to be checking them rather than them checking them.

I agree with you.

Would you mind pushing them on it, John?

I would be glad to, Mr. President.

And do you agree?

And I'm going to deny this story, of course.

I'm going to say we're just denying it.

We've got several other names, too, that we're considering.

And let the bar lie all they want.

That's perfectly all right.

Just among many that we're considering.

That's perfectly all right now.

You should do the same over there.

Just say, oh, well, premature that we're just routine checks on a number of people for a number of positions and so forth.

We can cover that.

As a matter of fact, I've got a meeting with the press that covers here this afternoon.

We can cover that on it.

Let me say one other thing.

I advise the Chief Justice of...

If I could say one other thing.

put them off the woman thing if you can.

Build, continue to build, keep the bird thing built up and then say that if they ask about the woman, no, we haven't made a decision to have a woman that, as the president said, we're considering them, but we're considering a number and that's been, that isn't going to be the determination.

Sort of, I just want them, I don't want them to zero in too much on Lily.

That's my, that's a problem we have there because you sort of

And I'll have Ziegler do that, too.

I always handle a woman with a smile.

Nobody thinks I'm going to do a woman until this story.

Well, this is the way it's played all the way through, and I think it continues.

If you'd continue to sort of play it with a smile, well, of course, we're considering women.

But I'd put it this way.

You've talked to me.

The fact we're considering somebody doesn't mean they're going to get it.

We're considering people then.

But I would like to sort of get them off of the woman's kick if we can.

And looking for the qualifications.

Sure, exactly.

It's the qualifications we're looking at.

Oh, you said you talked to Chief Justice.

Yes.

He wrote me a three- or four-page letter, which I won't bother you with, but he's talking all around the fact that

letting it be known that he's not anxious to have a woman.

I understand.

No more anxious than I am.

That could be expected.

However, I'm sure he'll take it in good grace.

He's got to do it.

Well, there's no... And he will do it, and he's the guy to handle it.

And the thing to do is for him to make...

I mean, he can play a great role in the history of the thing.

He's the most skillful man.

But one thing, incidentally, I have a thought.

They ever ask you, John, about, well, what about these mediocre people or they're unknown and so forth?

You can just smile and say, you know, I remember when the president named Mr. Berger, there were a number of editorial snide comments that he wasn't a distinguished lawyer.

I said, everybody, I think, agrees he's distinguished now.

And you can say, I remember that when Mr. Justice Black was appointed, many criticized him because they said he wasn't a distinguished jurist.

He said, and certainly even in fairness, all critics and defenders agree now.

I really knock the distinguished thing down hard.

I mean, they sort of take on Friday as a bond lawyer and all that.

But you see my point?

I'm not going to let them tear these people to pieces.

That's all there is to it.

I don't think they can, Mr. President.

Well, the Times thing is pretty rough.

Well, it was not so much the story as it was the headline, if you notice that.

It was the headline, not the story.

I agree.

Graham's story wasn't as bad as the headline.

That's absolutely right.

I put your money, there'll be editorials over the weekend.

Understand, I just want to beat the bastards on this, and I don't want them to create an impression that we're just looking for a bunch of non-entities who are Southerners and women.

And God damn it.

Well, as long as they have your philosophy, they're going to attack them.

They're going to attack them.

But you see, you see, if we get out first, see, my plan is as soon as we get it, I'm going to do this on television.

See?

And I'll get that goddamn story out first, and then you see I'm way ahead of them.

That's absolutely correct.

See, and so that's why I would really like to push it as fast as we can, and I'll just go out there and hang them.

Now, my thought now, John, is the way to do it, in order to get the double right of it, sorry, with you, I think they should go together, but I believe we should let, if we send the woman up with the man, it's going to so dominate the other story.

I'd like to send Friday's name up, say, first, Monday or Tuesday.

And then Lily's the next day.

And when I sent Fridays, I'd say, I'd go out and describe him and so forth and so on, let him have a day's ride throughout the country.

And I'd say, tomorrow I will have another announcement after our thing is complete, and then make the other.

Would that satisfy you?

Yes, I think that would be great.

So they both go at the same time.

But you see, I'm afraid if I send the two at the same time,

it will the woman's story will so dominate that won't be fair to friday yep very much all right with you yes sir then i can give friday a hell of a pitch and then the next i give the woman a pitch on her own because that's the woman's story is going to be even though it's leaked out now it'll be a big story just to pointing women particularly if you can and i'm going to have ziggler discount the woman thing today a little too

uh we can do that all right with that well did you notice how they're playing up that she's a leading catholic layman i'd like that yeah i'd like to see him start yeah yeah and a democrat and incidentally appointed by warren yep uh all those are pretty good aren't they i would certainly think so a democrat point of a war and a leading catholic layman and uh

I thought they did Friday.

I mean, I didn't like calling them bond lawyer for Christ's sake.

Well, that's a snide operation, as you know.

What the hell?

He does a lot of other things besides bonds in any way.

What the hell's wrong with a bond lawyer?

90% of his practice is in the other field.

Oh, sure, sure.

Well, anyway, good luck this afternoon.

Thanks, Mike.

Okay.