Conversation 011-103

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Hello?

Dr. Kissinger on, sir.

Yeah.

Hello, Mr. President.

Hello, Henry.

Hello?

Hello, Mr. President.

Yes, how's everything in Hawaii?

Well, it's very thoughtful of you to call.

It's perfect.

I'm at that Rockefeller house that isn't at the beach.

It's about 10 miles from the beach.

Oh, I see.

Beautifully located.

Uh-huh.

And I'm going to go to the beach in the afternoon.

Mm-hmm.

All had a restful morning.

Good, good.

Nothing new in the way of your developments?

No, I've just been looking over the daily reports which were sent out to me.

Yeah.

And there isn't anything of great significance.

One interesting thing is one of the best Soviet comments... Oh, did Haig tell you

Did we get a message from the Russians yesterday?

No, I haven't talked to Hague today.

I've been in the campaign.

We received a message from Duprin shortly before our last, saying that they had delivered... Well, we hadn't given them a message, but they had expressed our views on Vietnam in Hanoi.

Yeah.

And Hanoi is eager to resume private conversations with me.

Ah.

They've never passed a message like this through anybody.

Yeah.

May mean something.

And it's hard to know what they would be stalling for.

Mm-hmm.

And there's many things we are planning that they are preventing.

Yeah.

And today there's an article by a Soviet expert who usually has been very good

And he's put together what Fort Gourney said in Hanoi, what Victor Louis wrote in Moscow, and other things.

And he's come to the conclusion that there's a move on to end the war in Vietnam, which is based either on the, which is either because the Soviets are pressing for it or because the Soviets know it's going to happen and want to take credit for it.

Mm-hmm.

well that may mean that you're that the meeting will go forward on the first then well that's almost certain they may just approve that their passes delay until the 8th i wish we'll see but uh i consider it certain that that meeting will take place within a week of our proposal and actually uh their situation is

Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

and that they have to reposition some of their tankers because they have enough gasoline there for return.

And you can be sure that just, while it isn't decisive, that that little crack we gave them helped that shortage along a bit.

Well, as it happened, it concentrated on their oil supplies and dissolved.

Yeah.

And we'd like to take credit for it, but that was pretty late.

It certainly helped.

We have yet to resume.

Usually at this time of the year they start the big infiltration again.

Yeah.

It hasn't been very heavy yet.

We haven't noticed it yet.

Not much, not much.

All we've noticed is a few hundred people now.

It may be that they have a new communication system.

It's too early to tell.

But there is not that massive drug movement that usually begins at this time.

What is the day you get back?

25th.

Uh-huh.

From tomorrow.

Yeah.

What is the situation... Just a second.

What is the situation, Henry, on...

I noticed a story with regard to Japan, the opposition to Sato, or

They're talking about the Okinawa thing, trying to make an issue on that, that they might not approve it.

The opposition to Sato is making an issue that's mostly the socialists.

Yeah.

And the right-wing socialists and the opportunists in his own party.

The major objections that exist now are two.

One is that we insisted on continuing the Voice of America station there for two years.

Yeah.

Which I don't consider a big deal.

No, I don't think we have to insist on that.

And the second one, and in fact that is something that might come in helpful also with the Chinese, because the Chinese have complained about that too.

Yeah, that doesn't mean a thing to us.

And that's...

Well, how would we...

I'm just wondering how that affects the Connolly visit.

Any at all?

The Connolly visit, we haven't had an answer yet.

Yeah.

But we'll get it tomorrow.

Yeah.

The second issue is that they claim that a lot of the land is still maintained by American bases and they'd like some of the land back that is on American bases.

I'm talking about the opposition.

Yeah.

And we have had propositions that if we could just make a token thing, it would help.

Of course, these Japanese are incredible.

The deal you gave them went so far beyond anything that anybody thought possible.

Yeah.

That, as you remember, the State Department was worried that the Congress wouldn't approve it.

I know.

But that, if we could do something on the voice of America... Well, how would we do that, though?

And on...

and on giving up some of the land on the bases, but... Well, should we indicate that to them, you think?

Well, we could do it perhaps if you do meet Santos.

Well, you could even let Connolly do it.

Well, we could let Connolly do it.

Yeah.

All Connolly would have to do is to say we'd be receptive

Yeah.

Because that's certainly, neither of those things matters to us.

That's right.

Connolly shouldn't negotiate it, but Connolly could certainly indicate that we would be willing to do something, and that would give Sato a terrific shot in the arm.

Yeah, yeah.

That would actually be the good time to do it.

Yeah.

Well, they'd certainly, I just hope they have him come.

Well, it's certainly not in their interest.

The India-Pakistan thing seems to be still tough as hell, doesn't it?

I know.

Yeah.

they have offered a meeting with the Indian chief of staff to work out the details.

Now, the Indians have demanded that the Pakistanis withdraw first, and they would talk only after that.

Yeah.

And now we have reports of troop movements up to the border by the Indians.

Boy, well, I just think we've got to be sure that Dobrynin keeps them leashed.

Well, that's good.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Well, that's...

I think we can... You know, on the...

They don't expect...

I've told him he would get an answer on the Middle East by November 20th.

So we've got a month.

Yeah.

I've been looking, incidentally, at the...

I just looked today, been studying that paper on the uncommitted nations on the Taiwan thing.

And it would seem to me that if Bush and Rogers could work...

And they can enlist almost, you know, people like Conley if they want to on matters that involve them.

At least half of those countries just haven't any goddamn business to be fooling around with that.

We have moved a number of them already, Mr. President.

For example, Indonesia is going to vote with us.

Yeah.

But I was thinking, for example, I just looked at it over again.

Now, the Panamanians, now, damn it, they just have got to...

The Panamanians, certainly you've spoken to the Israeli.

It's ridiculous.

The Israeli can't expect us to stand with them and be the only one and then for them to deserve us on this.

Exactly.

But good God, Venezuela.

Hell, we've helped them in their oil thing.

Now they've just got to play along here.

We'll remember.

That's the kind of game that they ought to be playing.

I trust that that's what they are doing.

We sent a message yesterday to Morocco, Austria.

Yeah.

And I forget there was a fourth country.

Yeah.

Italy.

Well, Italy may be tough.

And there are three more on salvo, and we've already been presented to Ireland and the Netherlands.

Yeah.

Ireland almost certainly is going to come back to us.

Well, I talked today to, well, not to Dick, to John Morris here, but his brother Dick had talked to him.

He says Ireland was leaning the other way.

And I said, well, for God's, and they're bitching because of that airline thing, you know.

That's right.

Which seemed to me to be a, frankly, I don't see why we did that, but that's, we seem to be a sort of a, I mean, a pretty small thing for us to try to irritate the Irish about.

But I guess Flanagan was handling that, and he said that we had.

Flanagan felt very strongly about it.

But to do it?

That we should do it.

I know, I know, but I'm just not sure we should have.

Yeah.

But be that as it may, looking at the Irish, why the hell should they go with the English rather than us?

That's what it gets down to on this.

That's right.

And...

The latest count which I got today is that we are now four votes ahead.

Well...

That's a week.

This memo you have is about a week.

It's about from last June.

Yeah.

I'm going to get Hague and Rogers and Bush in, just the four of them, three of them, and then just go over them country by country with them to see if they are actually doing everything they need to do.

I'm not going to get involved, but I'm certainly going to.

There isn't any reason why on some of these things we can't be pretty tough.

Don't you agree?

I mean, in terms of saying to Venezuela and Panama, but in those African countries, good God, Kenya and the rest, they have no reason to... Ghana.

Now, what the hell would Ghana be there against us?

The major thing would be that you should keep direct out of it in a way that they can ascribe to you.

I'm going to do that.

But I think I can...

might indicate some ways that our people can be rather strong in getting and lining up some votes maybe the it's a because those we just shouldn't lose some of those countries henry that's all there is to it that's right most of those are the most of those on the list i saw the uncommitted list where they indicated we had 52 certain they had 56 certain

Now it looks like 59 to 55.

Yeah, well.

Indonesia has switched, and we picked up some of the others.

But it should be on the basis, in my view, that we just go to these countries and say, look here, you're interested in a lot of things from us.

Now, this is a small thing we ask, and we just think that you ought not to be against us.

And also, there's another very powerful argument here.

When I notice Greece is on the list,

Now, and Turkey.

Now, Greece and Turkey are out of their damn minds to go that way.

Because the Congress, the Congress, let me say this.

What's that?

We've sent a message to Turkey that he mentioned you.

Yeah, but you look at Greece and Turkey in terms of the Congress.

Their only supporters in the Congress are supporters of Taiwan, you know?

What we should do with Greece is to send a message to Agnew to take it up when he's there.

Yeah, but I'll push that out tomorrow.

and just indicate that it will have a hell of an effect in their support in the Congress.

And it will.

There's no question about it.

Mr. President, out of the White House, because State sure as hell is going to leak it.

Oh, I know.

I won't get it out of the White House, but I meant I want them to do it.

I want State to get it.

I mean, there we could actually do a back channel to TASCA to give to Agnew.

Yeah.

Well, I know.

I know what you mean.

Don't worry.

I'm not going to get involved in it myself, but I'll see that it's done in a way that...

that the state and others don't miss any bets here in really twisting arms because it isn't I mean we've made all the public I mean both Rogers and Bush have made their public statements and they're strong enough now it's really a question of just privately telling these countries now are you going to go with us you're going to be with the other side well any event

We will keep it going on some of these things.

I hope that Bush's count is an accurate one.

Do you think it is?

It's hard to tell.

You can't tell whether they're telling him something and telling somebody else something else?

Or how their count exists.

I suppose the British are probably going to play it very hard the other way just to prove that

That's one of the troubles.

They want to get to Peking.

That's one of the troubles.

That's right.

They're actually lobbying against us.

I know they are, and I noticed you've talked to Cromer, but probably he's not going to do any good.

Well, he promised me they'd stop it.

Yeah.

No, they don't really have to go that far.

No.

For example, we've got everything from

Rhodesian Chrome to South Africa to everything else where we try to be nice to them.

That's absolutely right.

And that's my view on this.

This is something they don't...

I think what it is, of course, is they're sort of trying to...

They look at us going to Peking and I suppose they say, well, we'll get there first, huh?

Well, except they haven't got the order.

Well, I know.

I don't think they're going to gain anything with Peking by doing that.

No, I... Well...

Well, I'll see that the thing is handled properly in that way.

Okay, you take off for Guam tomorrow?

I take off for Guam tomorrow, Mr. President.

Good.

Well, okay, I probably won't be talking to you again.

You go on and have a good day at the beach, okay?

Thank you, Mr. President.

Thank you for calling.

Bye.