Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 11 › Conversation 011-138

Nixon phone call with Mitchell on Supreme Court appointments

Tuesday, October 19, 1971 · 3:00 PM–3:05 PM ET · White House Telephone · 5 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Mitchell, John N.Conversation011-138 on Tape 11 (tape position 03:51:06–03:56:28)StartTuesday, October 19, 1971 at 3:00 PMEndTuesday, October 19, 1971 at 3:05 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 011-138 ↗ · National Archives Catalog, NAID 417190163 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Attorney General John Mitchell discuss strategy for filling Supreme Court vacancies, specifically focusing on persuading Lewis F. Powell, Jr. to accept an appointment. The two also evaluate the candidacy of Senator Howard H. Baker, Jr. and debate the merits of considering William H. Mulligan, noting that an appointment from a school like Fordham would challenge elitist preferences for top-tier institutions. Mitchell is instructed to consult with John Ehrlichman and Richard Moore regarding Mulligan's suitability while leveraging the endorsement of Warren E. Burger.

Audio

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NARA Description

On October 19, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and John N. Mitchell talked on the telephone from 3:00 pm to 3:05 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 011-138 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 011-138

 Date: October 19, 1971
 Time: 3:00 pm - 3:05 pm
 Location: White House Telephone

 The President talked with John N. Mitchell.

 [See Conversation No. 292-9]

        Lewis F. Powell, Jr.
             -Schedule
                  -Richmond
             -The President's attempt to reach
             -Reasons for Powell's selection to the Supreme Court

        Howard H. Baker, Jr.
            -Selection for Supreme Court
                  -Confirmation possibilities
                       -Senate
                       -Relationship with Edward W. Brooke
            -Philosophy

        William H. Mulligan
              -Selection for Supreme Court
                   -John D. Ehrlichman
                         -Richard A. Moore
                   -Mildred L. Lillie
                   -Fordham Law School
                         -Harvard Law School
                         -Notre Dame, Santa Clara, Loyola
                         -Moore
                         -Warren E. Burger

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Hello.
Yes, sir.
He had checked out of the hotel and left no number to call, so I presume that he's on his way back to Richmond.
But that's the way.
That was Paul.
So I tried.
I just called him just now.
I was tied up for a while when you told me earlier.
But...
now what do you think we should do leave a call for him I would because I think we'll have time to do that certainly during the but you had the feeling that it might still be an open question you know the way I look at it is that
If I just say, look, you're a conscientious man and all the rest, but right now your country needs you, and I'd like for you to take this, and as soon as you feel at any time you can't do it, why, you come to me and we'll work it out.
I'd say two years of Powell is worth 20 of somebody else, and that's the damn truth.
In this particular circumstance, I keep pointing out to him that that's absolutely correct.
You pointed out the need for a prestigious appointment and that sort of thing.
Right, and the commitment to the South and the need to rehabilitate the court in the eyes of the South, all of which he agrees.
That's right.
He agrees with all that.
He is just too conscientious.
That's the problem.
That's why I think you put duty above conscience.
I think that's the clincher.
You know, the Baker one, I just want you to really press him now, John, because the more I think about it, with that law practice...
I think you go, and incidentally, I don't think we ought to run that by, I mean, a fellow like Baker.
They just aren't going to crucify another senator up there.
I'm of the opinion that if the thing comes out the way that I anticipate it will, based on earlier conversations, the hell with them.
Because here's the point, too.
I meant even by our own FBIs and all that, because, you know, the minute that dunnit gets out,
We all know Harold Howard Baker's background, damn it.
He's no crook or anything of that sort.
And frankly, the Senate wouldn't dare put it out if he were.
I believe that to be the case, and I don't think he'll have enough opposition where they'll go dig it.
Yeah, that's my point.
That's my point.
He is highly, incidentally, it has occurred to me that one fellow that is very much a Baker supporter on other things has been Brooke.
You remember in the campaign, Baker got Brooke to come with me on the plane?
Oh, yes.
I think it was Baker.
I had a great rapport with Brooke.
Well, now, that isn't going to hurt.
No, sir.
I mean, so I just have a feeling this guy is intelligent and got a strong mind, and I must say not quite as sure as he could be, but you know that on most stuff he's going to be good.
You just can't expect him to be 100%.
On the way you were talking today about your philosophy, did he sound all right?
Oh, completely.
As a matter of fact, he was talking about exposure in some of the other areas of other people.
When he recognizes and starts talking about it, I think this is about as much as you're going to get out of any... What does he mean, exposure in other areas?
People where they may not have the same philosophy.
They might in criminal law, but not in civil rights and so forth.
He has followed this intensely.
Could I ask you to do one other thing?
Yes, sir.
Have you ever tried the Mulligan name out on, say, a fellow like Ehrlichman, to see what he thinks?
I mean, I just don't know.
I mean, are we too concerned about this mediocre business with him?
I'm just thinking, I'm going to put it to Powell, but if he doesn't go, then I just lean to Mulligan right now.
Well, I'll talk to John about it and let him think about it.
Say, after all, he's a dean of a law school.
And I'll tell you what I might also do, because John keeps turning to him for the PR.
Let me talk to Dick Moore and have him go and sit down with Ehrlichman.
Good.
That's the way to do it.
And tell him in the highest of confidence, in case the little thing, tell him we've got a problem there, but we think that I lean strongly to him for reasons that are...
But it had to do with Fordham.
I like the Dean thing.
I like the fact that it isn't the number one law school.
God damn it, I didn't go to a number one law school, John.
Where'd you go?
Did you go to Harvard?
Not recently.
No.
As a matter of fact, I was touted off of going to Harvard.
The whole point of this number one law school bullshit is getting me down a little, isn't it, you?
It has for about 30 years.
Because they just don't produce the product.
Well, sure.
Look, you've seen a lot of Harvard men around.
They're soft in the head.
And they don't work as hard.
But, no, this Fordham man may be all right.
I've seen some pretty good Fordham graduates, haven't you?
Yes, I have.
As a matter of fact, they're spread all over the Northeast and doing a hell of a lot better than the people from Harvard.
Let me tell you, if you take on the dean of Fordham, they're taking on the Notre Dame dean and a hell of a lot of others.
Santa Clara, Loyola.
About 80% of the schools.
Right.
But I mean, they're taking all the Catholic deans.
Very much so.
Would you run that by the committee?
And I don't want them to bring it to me, because I don't like this business of my being lobbied by the staff on things.
But just say you're checking yourself.
Say, will you do that?
Yes, sir, I will.
That's better.
And put it on Berger.
Say that he's raised his name.
Yep.
Would you do that?
I will.
And say that now he's maybe a meteor, but he's had much practice.
Okay.
I will do it directly.
Okay.

Also recorded on October 19, 1971

  • 292-001 1:45 PM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 1:45 pm and 2:53 pm.
  • 292-002 1:45 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 1:45 pm and 2:53 pm.
  • 292-006 2:53 PM · 30 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at 2:53 pm.
  • 292-007 2:53 PM · 22 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 2:53 pm and 3:00 pm.
  • 292-008 2:53 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 2:53 pm and 3:00 pm.
  • 292-009 3:00 PM · 5 min — President Richard M. Nixon and John N. Mitchell met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 3:00 pm to 3:05 pm.
  • 292-010 3:05 PM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at 3:05 pm.
  • 292-011 3:05 PM · 1 hr 58 min — President Richard M. Nixon, John D. Ehrlichman, Alexander M. Haig, Jr., Caspar W. ("Cap") Weinberger, George P. Shultz, and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 3:05 pm to 5:05 pm.

All 95 conversations from October 19, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 011-138, October 19, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives (NAID 417190163). Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/011-138 (accessed November 13, 2026).