Conversation 011-159

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Mr. President, that was Mr. Bryce Holloway.

Yes, sir.

Go ahead, please.

Hello.

This is wonderful to talk to you.

Bryce, how are you?

How are you?

Fine.

You sure looked good yesterday.

Oh, I'm fine.

You know, as a matter of fact, I'm never sick.

Let me ask you, I want to get your appraisal on this agriculture thing.

I mean, I know the views you have put in.

To me, it really comes down, you know, of the people that we've mentioned to...

I think it comes down, I mean, you can't take a knobby team under somebody like that.

I mean, they're just going to raise holy hell with too many people.

And to me, it comes down to the people other than present company and so forth is,

that I can see is between Earl Butts and Henry Bellman.

Now, I know you've been strong for Bellman.

That's right.

I've read very deeply about Earl, whom I love.

Who?

Earl.

I say I love Earl Butts.

I always thought he was just great.

Yeah.

But he is a symbol of Benson.

Of what?

Benson.

Was Butz a Benson symbol?

Well, remember he was Assistant Secretary of Agriculture under Ezra Taft Benson.

And if you or I were a member of the Farmers Union or a member of the Democratic Party, that's all we'd talk about.

I see.

Yet he's a very strong speaker, they say, and all that sort of thing.

Oh, you remember him, don't you?

Yes.

He's the only guy I ever saw run Hubert Humphrey right off of the platforms.

Yeah.

Oh, he's roughing the cup.

Yeah.

Tremendous.

I wonder if the Benson thing may be too far back in the memory.

The problem that you have with Henry is that, well, apart from the Senate and all the other things, is a real question as to whether he...

Frankly, Bryce could understand the intricacies of the goddamn thing.

You know, this is the most intricate thing.

We have nobody here who really understands it.

Dick Hardin tells me that he knows the farm program better than anybody in the whole darn Congress, except Hyde Murray.

Yeah.

He's a farmer.

Oh, I know he's a farmer, but there's a lot of farmers that don't know the difference between cow shit and pig shit.

I know that.

You know that.

But he does.

There's no question about his knowing the programs.

That is, at least, you know, the programs he's worked with very tightly.

The thing that I like about Henry is, number one, his total, absolute loyalty to you.

Yeah.

And this is in an area where... Where that's necessary.

Where, my God...

I'm so worried about the farm bill next year.

Sure.

And the guy that's handling this problem, which is a horrible problem always, has got to be totally faithful to you.

Yeah.

He's got that in spades.

I'll tell you what he actually told me.

As you know, I talk very privately with him on Bob's direction.

Right, right.

And I told him to come back to me with suggestions for this post.

I talked to him in absolute confidence.

Yeah.

And he's the only man on the Hill I could talk privately with and know he'd keep a secret.

Mm-hmm.

He came back then, and we had breakfast a week later to talk it out.

Mm-hmm.

And I told him not to exclude himself from his recommendations.

Right, right.

He thought objectively that he ought to be considered.

Mm-hmm.

He came back, and he said, well, Bryce, let's first talk about Bellman.

He said, I have thought very deeply on this, and, of course, I forbade him to mention it even to his wife.

Mm-hmm.

And he did not mention it.

He said, I thought it through.

He said, number one, I realize that if I leave the Senate and take this post, it will probably terminate my political future because of what happens to secretaries of agriculture.

He said, I'm aware of that.

And number two, I don't care because, he said, I think it's so critically important to this country that Dick Nixon's reelected.

He said, I'll do anything to do that.

Anything.

And he said, if it is deemed desirable to appoint me, I have thought it through.

I will resign and do it.

Now, he said, the final point on my successor, the seat in the Senate.

They don't appoint in Oklahoma.

They have to have a special election.

And he said, since we're going to lose the seat to Ed Edmondson almost surely, but we'll win the other one if we have two.

And so he said, we'll have a standoff.

And that's where we are now.

He said, I'm very sure of that.

Now, he said as far as who should have the post, he mentioned Al Kwee as a possibility.

I don't like that because I don't think he looks and acts like a farmer very much.

Number two, he's bullheaded.

And I don't think his loyalty quotient to you is anything like Henry.

Now, the thing I like about him is that loyalty factor.

I know he knows agriculture.

He's a practical, practicing farmer.

Number three, he looks like one, and he talks like one.

That's for sure.

And so he can hand-handedly, with a huge paw of his, go out across the country.

Yeah.

And he's more of a farmer than most of the guys he's talking to.

Right.

Now, then he can have, for his expertise that you're worried about, understandably, his parents, Palmby.

And Palmby will stay on.

And Palmby knows more about it than anybody wants to learn.

He's running the department anyway.

And he can run it.

Now, then Henry also said this.

He said that whoever, if the president has to appoint a new secretary between now and next year, he said he, this man that comes in, or whoever he is, must be one who is not going to mess with the department much.

He's going to have to get down the road.

To be a speaker.

And he said, I would not expect, for example, if I were to take the post, I wouldn't mess much with the administration of the department or try to change those people around.

Yeah.

I'd leave them in there because they're good people.

Yeah.

But I'd carry the message is what I assumed the president would want from now until election time.

Yeah.

And then maybe afterwards we'd start trying to do something around the department if we needed to.

Yeah.

Well, I think that's exactly what you want and need.

Yeah.

And I think he was a guy who would do that.

Yeah.

The weaknesses, John Mitchell feels very strongly and told me so.

We've argued about it.

Yeah, I know he does.

He feels very strongly that he doesn't have the administrative strength.

Well, I don't think we need to worry about that between now and November of 72.

Yeah.

Because we'd let Clarence Holmby and the Undersecretary run it.

Yeah.

While Henry fronted for it.

And...

Now, I think that he's by far the best, and the greatest worry I have about it is not his administrative side that worries John.

It's the seat, because you've got that damn close Senate, and it's just razor edge all the time.

Yes, it is.

And I worry about that, and so I would think that needs to be checked out awfully tightly.

Yeah.

That's the most dangerous part of it, it seems to me.

Do you think that the trouble with butts is that the Benson thing?

I see your point there.

Well, I think that, you know, playing politics in the farm areas, that's all you talk about if you were an enemy.

You wouldn't talk about butts, you'd talk about Benson.

Yeah, yeah.

And I love Earl Butts.

I suggested his name myself.

I know you did.

But...

It's like putting in Cufas.

Yeah.

You can't do that for these obvious reasons the same way.

Yeah.

He was quite a fellow, Osmar.

I like him very much, but it'd be a disaster to put a Farm Bureau man in there.

Oh, it is.

You buy one group and lose another.

John is strong as the devil on Louis Nunn.

But you don't like that guy.

I like Louis very much, but not in this post.

Yeah.

He's not a farmer.

Yeah.

yeah and you can't i don't think you can act like one right well i i uh well i don't think it's a disaster of course to put in louis none i just don't yeah i just think you need better than that yeah yeah okay well that's uh that's very helpful bryce very helpful the farm thing i think is absolutely critical for next year sure just critical sure yeah and uh

It could be an Achilles heel.

The main thing we want to do is to get those hog prices up.

And corn.

Well, they're there, yeah.

They're tied together.

Corn and hog.

Corn-hog ratio.

Remember how I called you?

That's it.

Corn-hog ratio.

Hell, yes.

Well, okay, Bryce.

It's good to see you yesterday.

Well, I'm delighted the way you looked and acted.

Things look pretty good out here in the village, Mr. President.

I'll tell you this, one thing I can assure you.

These bastards that have been sabotaging ours, I said that it's really ironical that the same people that got us into Vietnam have sabotaged every effort of my effort to get us out.

And by God, when the whole record is printed, as you can read between the lines, we've been doing an awful lot that we have not publicized.

We've had a hell of a lot of meetings they know nothing about in all sections of the world.

And these sons of bitches are going to have to pay.

We're going to make them pay.

Hey, really, it's irresponsible, man.

May I?

God, you know, here we are.

We got the casualties down to five this week, and what the hell do they want?

They want to lose.

They want the country to lose.

Well, they're desperate.

Yeah.

They're trying out every kind of thing they can think of.

I don't blame them.

They're trying to get an issue.

That's right.

That will float with the country, and you've taken them all away.

That's right.

They're having problems.

So they're thrusting around for something.

Right.

And the farm one is one.

And, of course, they're waiting to see how the economy works, see if they can play with that.

Well, the economy, we'll have to see.

If it doesn't go up, you know the economy is out of our hands.

That's just one of those things.

It's either going to go up or it isn't.

Well, that's right.

I think it will, but we shall see.

But I think you're in darn good shape except the farm bill.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, let's take a look at it, Bryce.

All right, sir.

All right.

Bye.