Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 12 › Conversation 012-015
Nixon phone call with Mitchell on Supreme Court and American Bar Association
Wednesday, October 20, 1971 · 5:33 PM–5:40 PM ET · White House Telephone · 7 min
AI Summary
President Nixon and John Mitchell coordinate the final strategy for upcoming Supreme Court nominations, specifically discussing candidates Lewis F. Powell, Jr., Howard H. Baker, Jr., and William H. Rehnquist. Mitchell briefs the President on the American Bar Association’s negative evaluations of other potential nominees, prompting Nixon to decide to publicly challenge the ABA's influence. Nixon directs Mitchell to finalize the selection of either Baker or Rehnquist to pair with Powell, and concludes that he will make a primetime televised announcement the following evening to control the narrative.
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Hello, Mr. President.
First of all, in talking to follow through on the conversation with Lou Powell, there's really nothing there.
He wrote a, made a speech at one time in which he condemned Martin Luther King for his activists, for that.
And he has backed wiretapping and so forth, so everything is just great.
But he's a hell of a scholar.
Where did he go to law school?
Not that that bothers me in particular.
I don't know.
I hear so damn many of these things.
I forget them.
Anyway, it's so outstanding.
Just get me a damn strong statement with regard to how superbly qualified he is and so forth and so on.
I'm going to do this.
My feeling is to do them in tandem and announce it, say, in a five-minute...
national TV around 730.
I think it's the best way to do it, since we've got power.
How about Baker?
Baker, surprisingly enough, is on an airplane coming back from Knoxville.
That's nice.
And has left no word about why he went or anything about it.
He'll be in here... Maybe we leave him off the list.
Well, they say he'll be in here quarter to six.
His plane's doing it at 545, so we should have... Well, I still think that the Rehnquist thing is a damn good possibility.
If he doesn't go, I...
I just, I know it doesn't do much politically, but, you know, when you think of the guy's record, he's just, that's a hell of a record.
There's no question it's perfect for that.
And, I mean, who's going to say that a law clerk to Bob Jackson is unqualified?
Now, I've talked to Judge Walsh.
Yeah, how's he coming out?
They have turned down both of them.
Good.
Which was to be expected.
Turned down Friday?
Yep.
Lobby down.
Well, it was a six to six vote.
And how about Lily?
What was it there?
Eleven to one.
What did you say?
Not qualified?
Yep.
Great.
And do you know what they said?
Great.
That she was probably as good as any...
woman that could be considered by the court.
The statement was made up there.
Well, are they going to put that out?
No, no.
We're not going to put anything out.
Well, we'll put it out.
We'll get it out.
We'll get that out.
When we have time and place when we want to.
Well, we've got to do it, I think, before we make the damn announcement.
I don't know.
Well...
There will probably be a leak up there.
All right, good.
There'll probably be a leak up there.
I don't think they can help it.
But they said that she was as good as any woman.
That's what Walsh told me the statements were.
That's nice.
And there just wasn't a quality.
And the stacked jury thing is going to really kill them.
One other part of this scenario.
I would like to deliver to Walsh at the appropriate time
a letter disassociating ourselves from my understanding.
You know, you've never gotten involved in this, me entirely, who consult with and before were hurled to you.
You hadn't been involved.
That's right.
But I would like to send them a letter pointing out how and why it doesn't work, etc.
etc.
Pointing out the fact that you cannot have the President's choices
uh so circumscribed and also and have good men pilloried and this and that that's what's happening public and it's not going to happen again and i think probably that the thing to do would also be to put out a press statement on the subject yes i want you to prepare what we get our side you prepare it you put it out the press statement good uh now you have to wait for uh the fellow do you for baker yeah uh yes yeah that's something you have to say
And I think that we ought to do two things.
Let that leak get out up there about their actions on this.
And then we can structure it the way that the time and the way you want it to go.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Well, I want to go tomorrow night, John.
If Baker doesn't say no, say yes tonight, then my view is to, I really think we, I'd really lean very strongly to the Rehnquist one.
Somewhere or other, I think that's such a surprise that it isn't going to, and you don't have the problem of Smith's law, I mean, clients and all that kind of sort of stuff, you know.
And if you feel comfortable with him.
I feel very comfortable with him.
All right.
Well, that's the way I do it, if it's either Baker or Rehnquist.
All right with you?
All right, sir.
Well, then we'll go.
So prepare something on that.
But God damn it, Baker shouldn't diddle us along like this.
I mean, that's...
He didn't even have the courtesy of calling up and saying he was going down there for this, that, and the next reason.
When does he get back?
Not till...
He was supposed to.
arrive at 545 this evening, so we may still hear from him for too long.
Well, you've got to call in to him, have you?
Yes, sir.
Well, I want it laid right on the line.
We're not going to wait, because I want to go on.
You see, with this bar leak out, you realize that that'll cause, it'll leak, and I'm just not going to be beating over the head with it all weekend, see?
I agree.
I'm going to make the announcement tomorrow night at 730.
All right.
I would think that would be great.
Okay.
And we'll program it towards that time.
So I'm going to make the decision now to go at 7.30.
I'll tell Holloman quietly to get the time.
Fair enough?
Very good, sir.
And it'll either be on either one, Rehnquist.
Well, I just think Rehnquist is made to order for the damn thing rather than Smith.
I think we just not go with Smith at this point.
Well, I think you'd do better with that because, as you pointed out a little earlier, Leupold does...
represent all these big clients.
That's right.
And so it's the other.
And Rehnquist is not in that category, is he?
Sir.
Right.
Okay, then that's what it is.
It's either Powell and Baker or Powell and Rehnquist, one of the two.
Fair enough.
Very good.
And we'll start programming towards that.
And I may, we're going to get out now that I'll make the announcement tomorrow night.
Fair enough.
Does that bother you?
Uh,
I'm just trying to heat that, you see what I mean?
They'll think we're going to go against the bar.
Or do you prefer to wait till the morning?
No.
I think that that's all right, as long as somebody doesn't... Nope.
Nobody's going to know the names, understand?
It's just you and I know the names.
Don't worry, I haven't breathed this to anybody.
I mean, the Powell thing is, unless, it's just you and I'll know.
All right, sir.
Very good.
I see you thinking of it that way.
No, what I meant is that I think we ought to tell Ziegler that I will make the announcement at 7.30 tomorrow night.
That to be announced on the morning?
Yes.
No, announce it tonight.
Announce it tonight.
Yeah, let's build it up.
That's really going to swing them around.
Well, it'll knock the hell out of them.
They'll think that we're going to go against the bar or something.
It sure will, won't it?
I really think we ought to build it up.
Well, we will be going against it.
That's right.
Is that all right with you now?
Yes, sir.
All right.
Yes, sir.
I don't see anything in between that we can't see.
All right.
That's what I'm going to say.
We'll get started on it.
Fine.
All right, sir.
All right.
NARA Description
On October 20, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and John N. Mitchell talked on the telephone from 5:33 pm to 5:40 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 012-015 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 12-15
Date: October 20, 1971
10
NIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS STAFF
Tape Subject Log
(rev. 10/06)
Time: 5:33 pm- 5:40 pm
Location: White House Telephone
John N. Mitchell talked with the President.
[See Conversation No. 282-30]
Supreme Court appointments
-Lewis F. Powell, Jr.
-Martin Luther King, Jr.
-Wiretapping
-Howard H. Baker, Jr.
-Knoxville, Tennessee
-William H. Rehnquist
-Robert H. Jackson
-Lawrence E. Walsh
-Previous conversation with Mitchell
-American Bar Association [ABA] Committee
-Rejection of candidates
-Herschel H. Friday
-Mildred L. Lillie
-Possible letter form Walsh
-Administration’s position
-Possible press statement
-Press statement
-Baker
-Timing
-Rehnquist
-Smith
-Baker
-Forthcoming announcement
-Haldeman
-Rehnquist
-Smith
-Powell
-Timing
-Ronald L. Ziegler
-ABAAlso recorded on October 20, 1971
- 282-027 5:20 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 5:20 pm to 5:25 pm.
- 282-028 5:25 PM · 17 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 5:25 pm and 5:33 pm.
- 282-029 5:25 PM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 5:25 pm and 5:33 pm.
- 282-030 5:33 PM · 7 min — President Richard M. Nixon and John N. Mitchell met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 5:33 pm to 5:40 pm.
- 012-016 5:40 PM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon, unknown person(s), White House operator, and Ronald L. Ziegler talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 5:40 pm and 5:49 pm.
- 282-031 5:40 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 5:40 pm and 5:49 pm.
- 282-032 5:40 PM · 6 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, Manolo Sanchez, White House operator, and John N. Mitchell met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 5:40 pm and 5:49 pm.
- 012-017 5:49 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and John N. Mitchell talked on the telephone from 5:49 pm to 5:50 pm.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 012-015, October 20, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/012-015 (accessed September 28, 2026).