{"conversationCode":"012-111","tapeNumber":12,"conversationNumber":111,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-012-111","startDateTime":"1971-10-25T16:20:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1971-10-25T16:31:00.000Z","startDate":"25-Oct-1971","startTime":"12:20 PM","endDate":"25-Oct-1971","endTime":"12:31 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Rogers, William P.;","description":"On October 25, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and William P. Rogers talked on the telephone from 12:20 pm to 12:31 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 012-111 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":2,"chronRelease":"Second Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"26-Oct-2000","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 012-111\n\nDate: October 25, 1971\nTime: 12:20 pm- 12:31 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nThe President talked with William P. Rogers.\n\n[See Conversation No. 601-30]\n\n     US Foreign Policy\n         -United Nations (UN) vote on Chinese representation\n               -The President’s telephone calls to foreign leaders\n               -Italy\n                      -Voting position\n               -Mexico\n               -Portugal\n               -Morocco\n                      -The President’s previous telephone call to King Hassan II\n               -Senegal\n               -Togo\n               -Leopold S. Senghor\n                      -Georges Pompidou\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number\nLPRN-T-MDR-2014-012. Segment declassified on 12/01/2017. Archivist: JD]\n[National Security]\n[012-111-w001]\n[Duration: 32s]\n\n     US Foreign Policy\n         -United Nations (UN) vote on Chinese representation\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n                 -Leopold S. Senghor\n                      -People’s Republic of China (PRC)\n                            -Potential deal\n                            -Delegation visit\n                      -Visit with the President\n                      -Phone call with William P. Rogers\n                            -Change of mind\n                            -The President’s reaction\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n     US Foreign Policy\n         -European countries\n         -African countries\n               -Future meeting with the President\n         -Mexico\n         -Canada\n         -Mexico\n         -Emilio O. Rabasa\n               -Rogers’ forthcoming conversation\n               -Luis Echeverria Alvarez\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number\nLPRN-T-MDR-2014-012. Segment declassified on 12/01/2017. Archivist: JD]\n[National Security]\n[012-111-w002]\n[Duration: 1m 1s]\n\n     US Foreign Policy\n         -United Nations (UN) vote Chinese representation\n               -Mexico\n                     -Support for Mexico\n                          -Taxes\n                          -Congressional involvement\n               -Ireland\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n                       -Timing\n                             -Political impact\n                             -Airlines\n                       -John Moore\n                       -Fight with British\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n     US Foreign Policy\n         -US strategy\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number\nLPRN-T-MDR-2014-012. Segment declassified on 12/01/2017. Archivist: JD]\n[National Security]\n[012-111-w003]\n[Duration: 8s]\n\n     US Foreign Policy\n         -United Nations (UN) vote for Chinese representation\n               -People’s Republic of China (PRC)\n                     -Africa\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n    US Foreign Policy\n          -World Bank, International Monetary Fund (IMF), Asian Development Fund, Latin-\nAmerican Fund\n          -Peter G. Peterson Committee\n          -US\n          -John B. Connally\n          -Brazil\n          -Argentina\n          -Peru\n          -Ecuador\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number\nLPRN-T-MDR-2014-012. Segment declassified on 12/08/2017. Archivist: JD]\n[National Security]\n[012-111-w004]\n[Duration: 27s]\n\n     US Foreign Policy\n         -United Nations (UN) vote for Chinese representation\n               -World Bank, International Monetary Fund (IMF); Asian Development Fund\n                     -Ecuador\n                          -Fishing\n                          -Consideration\n                          -The President’s opinion\n                                -Bolivia\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n     US Foreign Policy\n         -Latin America\n         -Henry Cabot Lodge\n               -United Nations (UN)\n               -Possible outcome\n                     -US response\n         -Belgium\n               -Pierre Harmel\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number\nLPRN-T-MDR-2014-012. Segment declassified on 12/08/2017. Archivist: JD]\n[National Security]\n[012-111-w005]\n[Duration: 4s]\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n     US Foreign Policy\n         -United Nations (UN) vote for Chinese representation\n               -Belgium\n                     -French, British influence\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n     US Foreign Policies\n         -Actions\n               -Possible decision\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number\nLPRN-T-MDR-2014-012. Segment declassified on 12/08/2017. Archivist: JD]\n[National Security]\n[012-111-w006]\n[Duration: 13s]\n\n     US Foreign Policy\n         -United Nations (UN) vote for Chinese representation\n               -French\n                      -Game\n               -British\n                      -Above board\n               -Georges J.R. Pompidou\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n                 -Possible vote count\n                       -Rogers view\n                 -Southern Yemen\n                 -Sudan\n                 -Syria\n                 -Iraq\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n                 -Southern Yemen\n                 -Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Bulgaria, Burma, Burundi Belorussia,\n                       Cameroon, Canada, Central African Republic, Ceylon, Chile, Cuba,\n                       Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Ecuador, Equatorial Guinea, Ethiopia\n                 -Ceylon\n                       -Chinese\n                 -Guinea, Hungary\n                 -Iceland\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number\nLPRN-T-MDR-2014-012. Segment declassified on 12/08/2017. Archivist: JD]\n[National Security]\n[012-111-w007]\n[Duration: 3s]\n\n     US Foreign Policy\n         -United Nations (UN) vote for Chinese representation\n               -Iceland\n                     -French, British influence\n\n******************************************************************************\n\n     US Foreign Policy\n         -India, Iraq, Kuwait\n         -Kenya\n         -Multilateral assistance\n         -US position\n               -Aid\n               -George H.W. Bush\n                     -Comments on vote\n                           -Possible defeat\n                     -Rogers\n                     -Alexander M. Haig, Jr.\n               -The President's Position\n               -Us Domestic Situation\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n                      -China\n                      -Italy\n                 -Rogers’ Schedule\n                      -Harmel","filename":["012-111.mp3"],"tapeStart":"04:27:27","tapeEnd":"04:38:12","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Rogers, William P."],"prevCode":"012-110","nextCode":"012-112","transcript":[{"start":1.62,"end":2.42,"text":"Hello?"},{"start":2.46,"end":3,"text":"Secretary Rogers."},{"start":4.67,"end":5.27,"text":"President."},{"start":5.29,"end":6.01,"text":"Oh, Mr. President."},{"start":6.05,"end":6.45,"text":"Hi, Bill."},{"start":6.63,"end":10.6,"text":"I just wanted to tell you that the calls you made have been, I think, quite successful."},{"start":11.2,"end":13.47,"text":"Except Italy and Mexico, though, huh?"},{"start":13.49,"end":17.4,"text":"Yeah, I'm going out to my house to see the Mexican foreign minister right now, but..."},{"start":17.77,"end":19.19,"text":"What, Italy?"},{"start":19.27,"end":20.21,"text":"Italy going to abstain?"},{"start":20.27,"end":20.63,"text":"Yes."},{"start":21.01,"end":22.24,"text":"God damn them."},{"start":22.26,"end":25.14,"text":"That's a courageous damn thing to do, isn't it?"},{"start":25.16,"end":25.48,"text":"Isn't it so?"},{"start":25.9,"end":28.67,"text":"On the other hand, they could have gone the other way, I suppose."},{"start":28.71,"end":29.67,"text":"That's right."},{"start":29.69,"end":33.16,"text":"Portugal finally came through this morning, so they're going to vote yes."},{"start":33.49,"end":39.66,"text":"As you know, Morocco, that call of the... That's the only one I felt confident about."},{"start":40.02,"end":41.37,"text":"He was really overwhelmed, I think."},{"start":41.91,"end":44.85,"text":"He was, and I think it was... Did he influence anybody else, you think?"},{"start":45.09,"end":45.69,"text":"I don't think so."},{"start":46.75,"end":57.61,"text":"Now, in the case where we've lost some, we lost Senegal and probably Togo, and that was because of the meeting that Senghor had with Pompidou."},{"start":58.47,"end":58.81,"text":"Oh."},{"start":91.7,"end":93.34,"text":"Let me say this, that..."},{"start":94.82,"end":121.89,"text":"of course except for the european countries where we have no choice in the future whenever any african country i mean where they you know we have to do these little dads when they submit them to can they come in the president's call and so forth believe me if they voted against us on this i don't care how it comes up i'm not going to see them because it's the least they can do we don't ask much from them and we give a lot to them really uh it's a pretty goddamn"},{"start":122.32,"end":123.05,"text":"thing."},{"start":123.06,"end":125.11,"text":"Now, you can't do that to the Mexicans, of course."},{"start":125.13,"end":126.67,"text":"You can't do it to the Canadians."},{"start":127.79,"end":134.06,"text":"Well, with the Mexicans, though, I'm going to tell Rabassa that Echeverria would build up an awful lot of goodwill with you."},{"start":134.1,"end":137.05,"text":"That's right."},{"start":137.17,"end":146.75,"text":"And with the Mexicans, you could say that we feel that we ought to go together and that we both are going to have good relations with the Chinese communists and with the other..."},{"start":209.62,"end":216.68,"text":"I think, Mr. Bennett, we ought to reconsider the whole idea of putting all our eggs in this multilateral basket."},{"start":217.24,"end":221.88,"text":"You know, these little countries don't appreciate it when we give them things through these..."},{"start":221.9,"end":222.9,"text":"Absolutely."},{"start":232.6,"end":242.67,"text":"And all we do is talk about the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, the Asian Development Fund, the Inter-American Fund."},{"start":242.83,"end":246.92,"text":"I personally believe myself that we lose enormous advantage there."},{"start":247,"end":248.14,"text":"I couldn't agree more."},{"start":248.18,"end":255.61,"text":"And also, you know, the thing is that the Peterson Committee and all the rest say, let's do it multilaterally."},{"start":255.65,"end":257.83,"text":"Well, the reason for that, that's the internationalist."},{"start":257.85,"end":259.74,"text":"But God damn it, it doesn't help the United States."},{"start":259.89,"end":260.6,"text":"Not a damn bit."},{"start":260.78,"end":262.24,"text":"And it costs us just as much."},{"start":262.71,"end":270.7,"text":"We have no control, and believe me, when you see what some of these bastards do who run these agencies, they're independent as a hog on ice."},{"start":270.94,"end":272.1,"text":"Oh, there's no doubt about it."},{"start":272.46,"end":274.13,"text":"And we don't get any credit at all."},{"start":274.81,"end":276.29,"text":"Well, how can we reverse it?"},{"start":276.31,"end":277.71,"text":"Well, let me sort of..."},{"start":277.93,"end":279.25,"text":"I would go right at it."},{"start":279.33,"end":280.66,"text":"I'm for it a thousand percent."},{"start":280.68,"end":282.24,"text":"That's what Adelaide Connolly's for it, too."},{"start":282.64,"end":282.88,"text":"Is he?"},{"start":282.9,"end":287.25,"text":"He is so goddamn mad at the bank and others, well, various banks, because..."},{"start":287.67,"end":309.44,"text":"they don't play our game and he said we ought to find ways of course he isn't trying to he isn't uh of course he'll be a good ally because he can help with the banking and currency mayor but if you find ways i'll support it well that's good because uh and i think we've got to with our friends like in latin america the brazil and argentina we got to play ball with them these little countries that they're so goddamn obnoxious that's right"},{"start":309.42,"end":312.38,"text":"Argentina and Brazil are both going with us now, are they?"},{"start":312.52,"end":313.17,"text":"That's right."},{"start":313.19,"end":313.69,"text":"That's good."},{"start":314.05,"end":317.89,"text":"And Argentina is going out of its way to be friendly to us about it."},{"start":318.1,"end":321,"text":"Can they help with any of the little ones I spoke of?"},{"start":321.04,"end":322.69,"text":"Well, we've got them trying to help with Peru."},{"start":323.11,"end":323.59,"text":"I don't know."},{"start":326.01,"end":326.75,"text":"God damn, Peru."},{"start":327.94,"end":330.16,"text":"Peru and Ecuador are both against us."},{"start":357.76,"end":359.02,"text":"If they're for us, fine."},{"start":359.23,"end":359.77,"text":"They're a vote."},{"start":360.13,"end":374.36,"text":"You see, one of the reasons we've done things for Latin America is not only because they're close, but also because, as Cabot Lodge used to say in the Eisenhower years, they were a solid vote in the U.N. Now, if they're not a solid vote in the U.N., let's play those that are and hell with the rest of them."},{"start":374.38,"end":374.8,"text":"That's right."},{"start":375.37,"end":379.13,"text":"Well, I think we've got to probably face up to the fact we may lose."},{"start":379.17,"end":383.29,"text":"My guess is we lose by three or four votes now, particularly if Belgium switches."},{"start":383.31,"end":385.1,"text":"I've got to call in for Harmel right now."},{"start":386.08,"end":387.62,"text":"Why would Belgium switch?"},{"start":392.59,"end":393.36,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":394.22,"end":397.46,"text":"And Belgium, Harmel is the man that stood out all by himself."},{"start":398.3,"end":400.44,"text":"He said he'd resign rather than vote the other way."},{"start":400.96,"end":407.43,"text":"Now, they've just had a cabinet meeting, and I don't know the outcome, but he's been great."},{"start":407.49,"end":408.63,"text":"He's just been a stalwart."},{"start":410,"end":413.54,"text":"Now, I don't know that we've got any leverage at all."},{"start":428.3,"end":430.14,"text":"I think we'll lose by three or four votes."},{"start":430.16,"end":430.84,"text":"Be my guess."},{"start":431.47,"end":434.02,"text":"Right now, our count is that we're one ahead."},{"start":434.61,"end":437.28,"text":"One or two ahead, but I think they'll be slippage."},{"start":437.46,"end":439.36,"text":"We've got some soft numbers there."},{"start":440.24,"end":442.5,"text":"We have soft ones we don't think they have any on."},{"start":443.3,"end":444.36,"text":"That's right."},{"start":444.48,"end":446.39,"text":"None of theirs we could work on at this point."},{"start":446.43,"end":449.19,"text":"No, most of theirs, we worked on every one on their list."},{"start":449.85,"end":455,"text":"Most of them are ones like the southern Yemen and the Sudan and Syria."},{"start":455.02,"end":457.42,"text":"Jesus Christ, they shouldn't even be in the damn United Nations."},{"start":457.52,"end":457.94,"text":"I know."},{"start":458.68,"end":461.18,"text":"Southern Yemen, now isn't that a great place?"},{"start":461.2,"end":461.46,"text":"That's right."},{"start":462.17,"end":478.66,"text":"The ones that they have are just Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Bulgaria, Burma, Burundi, Belarus, Cameroon, Canada, Central, Ceylon, Chile, Cuba, Czechoslovakia,"},{"start":479.48,"end":483.19,"text":"Denmark, Ecuador, Equatorial Guinea, Ethiopia."},{"start":483.21,"end":485.29,"text":"I spoke to that woman about Salon."},{"start":485.31,"end":486.29,"text":"I don't suppose it did any good."},{"start":486.87,"end":488.5,"text":"No, she's pretty well committed the other way."},{"start":488.66,"end":489.8,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":490.16,"end":490.84,"text":"She wouldn't go."},{"start":490.92,"end":494.35,"text":"You couldn't ask them just as a courtesy to go abstain, could you?"},{"start":496.21,"end":497.37,"text":"They're right there."},{"start":497.51,"end":499.33,"text":"We just helped them on some things."},{"start":499.83,"end":502,"text":"I think you might just try an abstention."},{"start":502.02,"end":506.32,"text":"Well, we might try an abstention, but I think the problem was that she was committed way back."},{"start":506.43,"end":508.35,"text":"See, the Chinese do quite a lot for them."},{"start":509.53,"end":510.09,"text":"Ah, that's right."},{"start":510.11,"end":510.79,"text":"Well, forget it, forget it."},{"start":510.81,"end":512.41,"text":"They get a lot of their foodstuffs."},{"start":512.43,"end":512.71,"text":"That's right."},{"start":512.73,"end":513.75,"text":"They have a trading deal."},{"start":513.8,"end":514.36,"text":"You're right, you're right."},{"start":514.38,"end":515.1,"text":"They can't do it."},{"start":515.12,"end":518.44,"text":"And they were committed long before she got here, so I didn't really press her."},{"start":518.6,"end":519.12,"text":"I understand."},{"start":519.72,"end":524.15,"text":"But you got Guinea and Hungary and Iceland."},{"start":524.19,"end":525.03,"text":"Now, Iceland is too bad."},{"start":530.14,"end":532.99,"text":"Iraq, Kuwait."},{"start":533.31,"end":536.31,"text":"Kenya's possibility, we're meeting with the Kenyans right now."},{"start":536.57,"end":536.83,"text":"Good."},{"start":539.03,"end":540.52,"text":"Put anything on you need."},{"start":540.58,"end":542.34,"text":"I mean, I'll do anything."},{"start":544.18,"end":548.07,"text":"Even visit the goddamn places if necessary."},{"start":548.25,"end":549.15,"text":"But let me say..."},{"start":549.89,"end":570.38,"text":"there isn't any two ways about it from this vote demonstrates the weakness of the multilateral assistance it also demonstrates that when they come running in here and they want us to do these nice little things to hell with them unless it's something in it for us that's right nothing in it for us exactly the way i feel exactly that's the way they're treated by the other side so we'll treat them that way exactly"},{"start":570.36,"end":573.88,"text":"We've got to get some bilateral aid to help."},{"start":574.14,"end":577.94,"text":"Now in these African countries that helped us, we've got to do a few little things to help them."},{"start":577.96,"end":580.05,"text":"We've taken away from those that didn't help us."},{"start":580.09,"end":580.67,"text":"Absolutely."},{"start":581.53,"end":582.01,"text":"I'm for that."},{"start":582.43,"end":587.29,"text":"Well, I think that if we lose, it would be better for you not to say anything."},{"start":587.36,"end":592.3,"text":"And we'll either have George Bush say it, or maybe George Bush and I both express our regrets."},{"start":592.34,"end":595.33,"text":"We'll work out some... Al has asked for some contingency plans."},{"start":595.37,"end":596.51,"text":"We'll have them over to time."},{"start":596.89,"end":598.21,"text":"I think it should be..."},{"start":598.23,"end":599.67,"text":"I think if we lose..."},{"start":601.4,"end":610.47,"text":"uh it just doesn't make any sense probably for me to get into it for uh it doesn't uh it's just one of those damn things i mean incidentally it uh"},{"start":611.21,"end":614.03,"text":"the right wing will have its problems with this."},{"start":614.25,"end":614.74,"text":"We know that."},{"start":615.76,"end":623.63,"text":"We've made a good fight, but on the other hand, I think even without the China visit, it probably was going to be lost."},{"start":623.69,"end":624.67,"text":"It's been a which year?"},{"start":625.77,"end":627.51,"text":"We were losing all the time, weren't we?"},{"start":627.53,"end":629.5,"text":"The Italians and all the rest."},{"start":629.62,"end":639.09,"text":"I think one thing, too, that we can be pleased that we've done every possible thing we can do, and I don't think there's anybody that has any..."},{"start":639.75,"end":640.85,"text":"Any doubts about that?"},{"start":641.17,"end":642.87,"text":"Say, I've got Hymel on the phone."},{"start":642.89,"end":643.27,"text":"Okay, got it."},{"start":643.33,"end":644.34,"text":"I'm going to call you."},{"start":644.5,"end":645.18,"text":"Bye."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Secretary of State William Rogers discussed the precarious vote count regarding the admission of the People's Republic of China to the United Nations. They reviewed the effectiveness of the President's personal appeals to various foreign leaders, expressing frustration over uncooperative nations and the limitations of multilateral foreign aid. Ultimately, the two agreed that if the U.S. failed to secure the vote, they would avoid direct presidential involvement in the aftermath, prioritizing a pivot toward bilateral diplomacy that rewards supportive nations and penalizes those that oppose U.S. interests.","topics":["United Nations","People's Republic of China","US Foreign Policy","Multilateral Aid","Diplomatic Relations","UN Voting"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-05T23:40:14.470Z"},"topicSlugs":["united-nations","peoples-republic-of-china","us-foreign-policy","multilateral-aid","diplomatic-relations","un-voting"],"audioDurationSec":646,"audioFiles":[{"file":"012-111.mp3","bytes":15493537,"durationSec":645.51,"bitrate":192017,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:22.041Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:36.057Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/012-111.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/012-111","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/12/conversation-012-111","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}