Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 13 › Conversation 013-008
Nixon phone call with Reagan on United Nations and Taiwan
Tuesday, October 26, 1971 · 11:13 AM–11:25 AM ET · White House Telephone · 12 min
AI Summary
President Nixon and Governor Ronald Reagan discussed the recent United Nations vote to expel Taiwan and recognize the People's Republic of China. Reagan expressed strong frustration with the UN, proposing that the U.S. maintain its presence for debate while refusing to participate in future votes as a way to signal American dissatisfaction. Nixon acknowledged the political weight of the issue and the potential for congressional repercussions, while also briefing Reagan on his recent judicial nominees to the Supreme Court.
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Transcript (AI-generated)
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Hello.
Governor Reagan, Mr. President.
Hello.
There you are.
Hello.
Mr. President.
Hope I didn't get you out of bed.
No, I'm still trying to sleep on oriental time and it's not working very well.
815.
Well, that was a bad boat, wasn't it?
Well, I want to tell you, we worked our tails off, I must say.
I think 54 to 59.
I'm telling you, I just finished a meeting with Ted Agnew.
He's back from Greece and Turkey.
both of whom we got, incidentally.
We didn't get Iran, though, damn it.
You know, you figure there's the Shah.
We've done all the things for him.
And these African countries, they're the ones that I must say were disappointing.
Well, Mr. President, the reason I called was I know it is not easy to give a suggestion or advice to the President of the United States, but I just feel that I feel so strongly that we can't
and was in view of 72, we can't just sit and take this and continue as if nothing had happened.
And I had a suggestion for an action that I'd like to be so presumptuous as to suggest.
My every instinct says, get the hell out of that kangaroo court and let it sink.
But I know that would be extremely difficult and not the thing to do.
It has occurred to me that the United States, I just, the people, I just know are, first of all, they don't like the U.N. to begin with.
That's right.
And it seemed to me that if you brought Mr. Bush back to Washington to let them sweat for about 24 hours as to what you were thinking of, and then if you went on television to the people of the United States and said that Mr. Bush was going back to the U.N.,
participate in debate and discussion to present our views and so forth.
But he would not participate in any votes.
But the United States would not vote and would not be bound by the votes of the UN, because it is a debating society.
You don't have to say that, but it is a debating society.
And so we'd be there.
Our presence would be there.
But we would just not participate in their votes.
I think it would put those bums in the perspective they belong.
It sure would.
I think it would make a hell of a campaign issue, because I am positive that the people of the United States are thoroughly disgusted.
And I think that this would put any candidate from the other side, the constant question would come to him, and he says, campaign, what would you do now?
And it's
He was stupid enough to open his mouth and say, oh, hell, you know, we'd go right back to operating as usual.
I think he'd be hung out to dry.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Well, we've been trying to think here about what your reaction to be.
I must say that the congressional action may be very interesting on the appropriation side.
Well, Mr. President, then, if they did what they threatened to do, they would simply be confirming your action.
They'd be making the budget meet that new position of the United States in the UN, reducing our importance.
The other way, if we do nothing and they take that action, it's a rebuff.
Well, let me give some thought to the whole thing.
It's a tough one, if you're well aware.
We've got some fish to fry on India, Pakistan.
We're trying to avoid a war there, and the UN may have to play some damn role there, because we don't want to get involved, let me say, in that miserable place.
Let me give some thought to this whole thing.
As you know, I have been thinking about it, and I've talked this morning with two or three people about it.
what the legal problems are and so forth.
Well, I just thought I had to make this suggestion.
I know, I know.
I appreciate it.
Last night and the night after that announcement came on, one commentator called me.
Yeah.
He told me that the, and I told him, I said, well, I just think it confirms the moral bankruptcy of the organization, the U.N. And he told me the phone was ringing off the wall.
And he said, with people that are just enraged.
Here's the last of the big four.
Here's the old boy.
We had a wonderful audience with him while we were there.
Yeah, yeah.
A remarkable man.
Yes.
You must have really enjoyed it.
He's such an amazing man.
Yes, he is.
Darn near.
How old is he now?
He's in his 80s.
I know, but you'd never know it.
No, no.
Sharp as a tack.
And he would demand I'm translating.
As you are quite aware, of course, this has nothing to do, this action does not affect at all our defense treaty and all that.
No, I...
I mean, we're, and he knows that.
He also knows what we did.
As a matter of fact, I made telephone calls to the four capitals on this thing myself.
Yeah.
Got two of them, two to abstain.
They should have gotten the other two, but that's about all.
Well, I was putting pictures along the way, and last night I tell you to watch that thing on television that I did.
Yeah.
To see those.
Well, and then the tail wags the dog there, doesn't it?
Yeah.
The tail wags the dog.
Please give some thought to this.
I think it would be very dramatic, and I think
If the United States just continues business as usual in the U.N. with this, I think...
I just think our people are going to be terribly disappointed, and I think here's a chance for Uncle Sam to just slap their wrist.
We're there.
We can express our views and debate.
But it's just not important enough for us to vote on this issue.
Naturally, if we do that, we're not bound to the vote.
Yeah, I get it.
Well, I just... Well, I... Yeah.
Oh, I'm telling you, I had a...
It was a hard night here.
Hard night here.
We were on the phone right up to the last minute.
Yeah.
Let me give some thought to the thing, and I'll keep you posted on what our strategy is.
We can do some things...
that are quite effective in many areas here.
Incidentally, we're going to remember all of our friends that stood with us on this.
Incidentally, among whom were the Japanese.
Yes.
They were great.
The Japanese were great.
They were great when I was there.
They asked a question in Japan.
Yeah.
I was impressed, and I wondered if this went wrong, and I said, well...
And that was where I first used the expression, I said, I would consider it an act of immoral political expediency by the United Nations.
Moral bankruptcy is a good term.
Yeah.
And a hell of a precedent, you know.
If you can throw out a nation, simple majority, the next they might throw out Portugal or South Africa.
Yeah.
Or Ghana.
Who knows?
That's why I think they need tools.
Well, let me get at it.
When did you get back?
We got back Saturday morning.
Saturday morning.
But you had a good trip.
Oh, yes.
Yeah, I got reports on it.
Good.
That's an exciting part of the world.
Yes.
The Vietnam and everything.
Yeah.
It's going well there, isn't it?
It seemed to be, yes.
Casualties this week were six, so we got it wound down.
Yeah.
Well...
Well, I shall leave you to your troubles.
I know the press is going to be waiting for me.
I'm going to...
I know I'll have to answer, and I'm going to continue along the same tone as far as I'm concerned.
Well, you might indicate that, for example, that you feel that this greatly weakens the support for the United Nations in the United States, that it will have repercussions in the Congress, and, you know, that sort of thing will...
We'll reverberate around.
As a matter of fact, before I left, I don't know what the hell is United Nations Week or when it is.
I signed that proclamation.
Did you?
UN Week, and I'm going to go over it.
If it still isn't over, if we haven't had it yet, I'm going to withdraw the proclamation.
Okay.
Yeah.
I bet you, I don't know whether, I probably signed it too, but I didn't go to anything, I can assure you.
Oh, I didn't either.
There are all sorts of dinners, you know.
Yeah.
Oh, out here, Warren made a speech at one, the other.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, incidentally, I think you should know another subject that we've got two terrific nominees for the Supreme Court.
They're tough, strong, conservative, and they are just squealing like this.
You know, as you know, we ran Mildred Lilly by you, and we have in mind Smith for another one.
These two you can bank on.
Our liberal friends, Paul of Virginia is just a great fellow, and Rehnquist is probably a strong young guy.
Well, he's not too damning.
He's 47, but probably he'll be the strongest man in the court.
My heart was, of course, set on Smith.
I'm hearing that he's a hell of a guy.
Well, let me say he's at the right age, and...
He is right up there on consideration.
Our problem was that we had to take one Southerner, it was Powell, and I couldn't take two corporation lawyers.
You see the problem.
He's a corporation lawyer and the other is.
But Smith, you know, he's got a terrific record, chairman of the Board of Regents and so forth, and as Mitchell will tell you, he was...
He was right in it.
And one of those other guys, what the heck, they can't live forever.
Who knows?
Let's hope the good guys live longer.
Yes.
Well, give my best to Nancy, and I'll be back in touch with you about this.
All right.
Okay.
Okay.
NARA Description
On October 26, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald W. Reagan talked on the telephone from 11:13 am to 11:25 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 013-008 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 013-008
Date: October 26, 1971
Time: 11:13 am - 11:25 am
Location: White House Telephone
The President talked with Ronald W. Reagan.
[See Conversation No. 602-4]
Reagan's schedule
**********************************************************************
[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 02/08/2019.
Segment cleared for release.]
[Personal Returnable]
[013-008-w002]
[Duration: 13s]
Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542
Ronald W. Reagan’s previous call to President
-President's routine
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Vote in United Nation on Taiwan
-President's previous meeting with Spiro T. Agnew
-Agnew's trip
-Greece, Turkey
-Iran
-African Nations
-1972 election
-United Nations [UN]
-Reagan’s view
-Popular opinion
-George H.W. Bush
-US participation
-Reagan’s view
-1972 campaign
-Possible Congressional action
-India-Pakistan conflict
-President's forthcoming conversations
-Reagan's statement to commentator
-Chiang Kai-shek
-Previous meeting with Reagan
-Effect of UN vote
-US Defense Treaty
-President's lobbying
-Telephone calls
-Extent of success
**************************************************************************
[Previous PRMPA Privacy (D) reviewed under PRMPA regulations 02/12/2019. Segment
cleared for release.]
[Privacy]
[013-008-w004]
Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542
[Duration: 6s]
Vote in United Nation on Taiwan
-Ronald W. Reagan
-Opinion of African representatives to the United Nations [UN]
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-Possible US response
-Reagan’s views
-President's efforts
-Japan
-Reagan’s comments
-Importance
-Portugal, South Africa, Ghana
Reagan's previous trip to Asia
-Itinerary
Vietnam
-Casualties
Reagan's forthcoming press conference
-UN vote on Taiwan
-Effects in US
UN vote on Taiwan
-Reagan's proclamation
-Earl Warren's speech
Supreme Court
-Nominees
-Mildred L. Lillie
-William French Smith
-Lewis F. Powell, Jr., William H. Rehnquist
-Smith, Chairman of Board of Regents
Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542
-John N. Mitchell
-Lifespan of Justices
Nancy ReaganAlso recorded on October 26, 1971
- 602-002 11:09 AM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 11:09 am and 11:13 am.
- 602-003 11:09 AM · 5 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the Oval Office of the White House at an unknown time between 11:09 am and 11:13 am.
- 602-004 11:13 AM · 9 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald W. Reagan met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:13 am to 11:25 am.
- 602-005 11:24 AM · 4 min — President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, and Alexander M. Haig, Jr. met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:24 am to 11:29 am.
- 013-009 11:25 AM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 11:25 am and 11:37 am.
- 602-006 11:35 AM · 42 min — Alexander P. Butterfield, Wallace F. Bennett, George P. Shultz, Clark MacGregor, John D. Ehrlichman, President Richard M. Nixon, White House operator, unknown person(s), and Marjorie P. Acker met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:35 am to 12:18 pm.
- 013-010 11:37 AM · 5 min — President Richard M. Nixon and William P. Rogers talked on the telephone from 11:37 am to 11:42 am.
- 013-011 11:42 AM · 5 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 11:42 am and 1:41 pm.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 013-008, October 26, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/013-008 (accessed October 22, 2026).