On November 1, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone from 7:42 pm to 8:03 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 013-060 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Hello.
Yes, sir.
I wondered if you had any report on Laird yet.
Yes, it went very well.
I've got the wire service stories, and he hit two networks.
He was on ABC and CBS.
George, you can try.
That's exactly right.
The wire service story, as a matter of fact, he hit precisely the line that we were talking about, looking for the damn thing here.
That's all right.
Well, it was the line that it was.
slow down the withdrawals or make the end of the war more difficult.
We've also talked to Rogers about his taking the same line tomorrow, and he's geared up to do it.
Skelly had a good talk with him, and I think he's got his back stiffened for the evening.
I don't know if it will stay stiffened overnight, but he's basically got the same line that Bell has.
So it hit well, and...
I didn't see it on TV, but the fellows who were watching said it came across very well.
I think that the important thing now for you to concentrate on, why don't you leave this one to the Scallion Company.
That's right.
And Roger.
It's going to happen.
That's all there is to it.
And then I think you ought to get on the whole mini...
That's going to be a very critical thing this weekend.
They really, I mean, if they blow this thing, we've got to take them on, and that's what we're looking for.
Well, we do, and I think there's an awful lot of maneuvering that can be done between now and then to kind of encircle the, you know, we've done this to them once before, where you get Suffrage and Paul Hall, and as a matter of fact, we've got something that Paul Hall really wants right now, which is to trade with them on the wheat shipment.
How's that coming?
Well, it's bogged down at the moment because we're trying to...
The deal that the unions want to cut is to get some oil.
At the moment, our oil policy people don't want to give them any tickets, but I'm still fighting that.
If we can give them some, Paul Hall becomes a hell of an ally.
Well, why don't we bring in the...
oil policy people to see me tomorrow.
Who is it?
Flanagan?
Flanagan and Schultz.
Bring them in.
And then I think I'll just go home and talk to them.
After I get through with McMahon, you know, I'll just bring them in and have it right out.
Got to go forward on that.
Well, that's the only thing holding it up.
I've got the union fellows all coming in to see me Wednesday morning, and I've talked to them on the phone.
They're ready to do business with me.
But at the moment, I don't have anything yet to give them.
But what I was...
I think it's important.
I think so.
Well, you've got the trade-off of the oil policy issue, but we've been awful good on that one.
I don't think we owe anybody anything there, as against the whole damn farm bill.
If we can start moving some of that corn and grain... To hell with the oil policy.
That's right.
Is that their problem, worrying about the oil people?
Yes, sir.
pretty much well for christ's sakes they're all with them well as you know schultz doesn't like to do anything with that program because he doesn't like to think so but i know but that's they have a hang-up georgia and i'll just have to take over and tell them that's what we're going to do then well i think if we can do that we break it loose got to get flanagan and salt right i know the i know the farm problem we've got to have it very clear as to what the hell is the issue with it and i just got to tell them to do it
Well, at this point in time, Mr. President, it would give us a couple of benefits, because we could get Paul Hall, who's a tower of strength on that executive council, and influences Meany on our side, perhaps, to give us a little subtle help on this pay issue.
We get suffrage.
I've got Lovestone coming over here to see me tomorrow.
And we can kind of encircle Meany, I think.
Once or twice before, we've done this with Fitz, who's great.
That talks to him that all suffrage, the fellows he listens to, basically, Joe Byrne, Joe Keenan, and Michael Nixon.
This is really a great, great test, not only for the administration and our whole policy, but a hell of a test for labor.
It sure is.
In the end, they will not win.
In the end, it will be bloody for us, but it will be bloodier for them.
It's really the case.
tendency would be to turn toward more restrictive legislation.
I think so.
Oh, I do too.
I don't think there's any question about it.
I think he's on a bad position.
And as I say, I think he's boxed.
He just wants some excuse to break.
But he knows he doesn't want it.
But he can't have it all his way, you see.
He's insisting on it.
that all the bird increases go into effect without regard to the freeze.
You can't have that.
You just can't.
Because he's got to, for the period of the freeze, they've got to be put over.
And another thing, we've got to get Schultz enthusiastic in terms of trying to work something out with me.
Schultz is sort of mixed on this because he's not keen on the whole program because of his problem.
And I understand that.
But on the other hand, I don't see any alternative to it, you see.
If we go down the road, Romini breaks it, and then the whole program goes up and up and up and up.
Well, if he breaks it, the problem, Mr. President, is that you either have to go the tough government line or just say the hell with the whole thing.
Either way.
Well, I think George Bennett wants the latter, but that just won't do.
That would devastate that.
Terrible.
Terrible.
The only way this program can... We have to go the hard line.
That's right.
We're going to have to come hell or high water, and that's worse.
Well, it is, and then you get the danger of strikes, although I'm not so sure he could lead his union in that.
I think he might have a hell of a job leading his unions on any kind of strikes with public sentiment so strong against him.
I think it would be, you know, the threat of this worked in the Korean War because people were tired of control.
Yeah, they had had them so fresh after World War II, but now it isn't that fresh in their minds.
That's right, and they had to live with it, and it wasn't...
But now there's still a hell of a wave of public support for this, and that makes it damn tough for me.
His ultimate weapon, of course, is to say, well, to hell with it.
We'll call all our unions out on strike.
I'm not so damn sure they do that.
If they do that, they'll just have to take it.
I'm not so sure.
I think he would back down.
I think his bluff could be called before that, because he isn't about to get himself in that position at his age in life.
and knowing that his control is not that good over his unions below the immediate executive council level anyway.
He doesn't have the second tier, and especially doesn't have it on this program.
Well, I'll get with Schultz in the morning and get filled in on it.
Yeah, and as I say, you just concentrate on this.
Leave the other to Scali and let him work it out.
All right.
And it'll work out.
We've done your part with Scali and the stories and all the rest.
Just give him total responsibility.
Well, I'll ride herd on him.
He's good at it.
He's working at it right now.
He's in his office working up different lines for people to use, lines for the vice president's speech.
He's all charged up with getting our group of people organized.
Wrote a statement for President Truman.
He's good.
I had a call from Ed Brook just a few minutes ago, and he
was so boiling mad, he said he couldn't calm down all day.
He was so goddamn mad over Teddy Kennedy's statements over the weekend.
He realizes that he's doing one a day now.
Yes.
Oh, yeah.
Well, he pointed out to me.
He said, you know, there's just one a day.
And that son of a bitch is doing one a day.
And he said, each one gets worse.
He said, can you imagine?
Talking about the president's leadership last week, he said, Christ, Teddy Kennedy missed all the key votes.
I'd overlook that.
But apparently...
Somebody ought to really hit him on that.
Where was he?
He was out speaking.
And he didn't, according to Ed, I haven't looked at the record, he missed all the key votes last week.
And then to turn around on the weekend and accuse you of lack of leadership.
Must be Mr. Tooth.
He wasn't there for the key vote, no.
Humphrey Paird.
Humphrey, I think Paird, yes.
I don't have it in front.
I think he did Paird.
Paird, you mean a goddamn thing.
You're there, aren't you?
Well, this is something that maybe Agnew can take on Wednesday, because presidential candidates were worthy.
They don't need to say they were fair.
Just say they were all absent.
That's right.
They were all absent.
I think that's a very good line for Agnew.
All absent.
Well, and especially when you take Teddy, who then the next day, or that night, begins to shoot his mouth off, and the next day, and the next day.
That's really pretty bad...
hypocritical conduct when you're not there yourself to be.
Let me ask you something which I don't want you to discuss with anybody.
It's a problem which made a great effect on this.
What is your feeling about a clemency, not a part, but a clemency for Hoffman?
Well, I would...
Yeah, it's a real tough one.
It cuts both ways.
Oh, Christ.
I wish there were a way that that goddamn parole board could do it.
They can't do it.
If that's definitely...
They can't do it until next July or June.
If they move then, they might let him out.
Of course, then it'll look like we did it.
They'll say we pressured it for political purposes.
Maybe it's well to get it out of the way now.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Well, I'd rather get it out of the way now.
I'd rather, if there were a way to do it through the...
They can have hearings any time there's new evidence.
Frankly, I would work like hell to find new evidence that would permit them to do that.
I don't know how much control John Mitchell has over the parole board.
That's intriguing.
New evidence?
Yeah, any time they have new evidence, they can reconvene hearings.
Now, the reason...
Mr. President, in August that they did not parole him was that he had not resigned from all of his local unions.
They contended.
In fact, he had, but apparently the letters of transmittal hadn't been delivered.
Now he has resigned from all unions.
He's severed all connections.
And there are ways, I think... A way, of course, if we did the clemency, we could say he has now complied with all that.
That's right.
and that he, since he's done that, that he should be penalized simply because he's a labor leader.
Well, on balance, I would come out for it.
Well, if it doesn't even fit things, but the price there is not fits in terms of political support, we just have to take our chances on that.
The price really is fits in terms of helping us on this damn wage part.
Well, but it's also political support.
Well, but we mustn't have that deal.
No, no.
I understand.
I understand.
But I've had some long talks with Betts.
He's got a problem.
Yeah.
in controlling his own union.
And I think if we had that, we could count on him.
He can have some influence, of course.
He's done some things for the auto workers.
Well, you know, two weeks ago, when we had the first meeting of the pay board, or 10 days ago, and Meany didn't show, that afternoon,
I mean, he still didn't show, but both Fitz and Woodcock did.
You remember, none of them showed in the morning.
Then Fitz and Woodcock came in in the afternoon.
I think on balance, Mr. President, I would, of course, rather see the billboard do it if there was a way to reopen it.
But on the other hand, it's really come down to the heat on Hopi.
You know who's going to take it up?
Teddy.
Teddy would definitely do it.
On the other hand, that's a mixture.
It's a blessing for him, too.
Oh, it sure is.
Because, you know, his brother persecuted him.
Well, he served a hell of a long time.
You know, most people, most Americans are compassionate.
The man has served his time.
He's been punished.
That's the way we would say it.
We would say that he has served his time.
Any other individual would be out.
He would be paroled.
He has met the conditions of parole before he's done.
We put him in the clemency list for Christmas.
That's the way I think.
That would be, I think we could do that.
I think in Christmas would be the time.
Well, I'll tell you where you'd raise hell.
You'd have Life magazine.
You'd have Clark Malinoff.
You'd have some of the liberal press, not all of them, because they can't argue against clemency.
That's right for them.
And you'd have Teddy Kennedy and a few of his bells raising some hell.
But on the other side of the mountain, you'd have Clark Malinoff.
convincing but he's just got to see that you can't just we're not doing we're not pardoning that's right clemency because he's met the parole board just say the technical matter yeah i think fitz was in a hell of a jam in august you know because they could the parole board met in june and uh didn't pro they give them then they called a special meeting in august
And it was obvious that calling a special meeting meant that there was something that they wanted to consider.
Then they threw it out again, which put everybody, put Fitz's people in a hell of a spot.
So I think I would come out that it would be worth the heat that we would take, which I don't think would last.
I think that people are forgiving.
Well, they are forgiving.
On the other hand, we have to realize that giving in clemency means we're on the side of a labor leader, which, of course, is not good with a hell of a lot of people.
But the argument that you would, and I'm sure we could frame this right, was that he had paid his debt to society, that he had given up his career forever, that if at any time he went back into the labor movement, the clemency would be revoked.
I assume that could be done.
Now, I think that could be handled.
And most people do think that he was politically persecuted as a hell, but I think a lot of people
A lot, though I'm not sure that most of them.
Well, to those who didn't, the case could be built that he'd been in prison, what, seven?
No, it isn't that long.
Five years.
Five years, just five.
It'll be five, that's right.
It'll be five this year.
That's a long time for a widely celebrated kind of political trial.
I suppose it would have a little bit of rub off on Ellsberg and the others, the argument would be that we're
prosecuting them hard, but we let off a fellow who did.
Well, the point is that we'll give them clemency after being the victim they served five years.
That's fair enough.
He's served time.
And he's been a model prisoner.
Every report has been just fabulous on him.
He's had an unblemished record.
Wife was ill, very ill.
know i think the argument could be very very particularly well anytime that anytime you that i if we had that to talk about some bits i can assure you that i could do most anything yes sir i assure you uh
Well, we'll talk about it tomorrow, but we may have to go to that.
I know the way this man's mind works.
He's a great guy.
But you see, the point is that he might not be able, Schultz makes the point out, that he might not be able to carry his union with him if he went with the pay guard.
But if Weber can get something that is too rough,
I think he could.
That's a tightly controlled union.
They had a hell of a raise last year.
They're not in the same category as a lot of the AFL unions that just bargained for raises this July and see themselves not getting it.
Their collective bargaining was a considerable period of time.
I'll tell you what you do without mentioning that.
Right.
I think you should have a talk with Fitz tomorrow, privately, on what's going to happen.
What can we do?
See if he brings it up.
He might well.
All right.
Will you do that?
Yes, sir.
If he doesn't bring it up, it'll be one of the first conversations that he has.
Yeah.
But, you know, great problem.
The country's at stake.
Labor's at stake.
You can be the big leader here.
What are you going to do?
Let Meany bust this thing, or are you going to be reasonable?
All right.
I'm going to talk to him.
He'll also give me some insight into Meany.
He generally does.
He doesn't go with him.
In fact, he resents being pushed around for that.
Well, I'll explore that with Mr. Warren.
I'll also get some up-to-date intelligence.
Don't raise the hopper.
Well, we have quite a week.
Quite a battle.
They'll win the foreign aid one, but the economic one is tougher.
Well, it's one that it is tougher because there's a lot of China that gets broken.
On this one, I'd sure love to see us keep this damn phase two mechanism going long enough to be able to point to some good statistics and then say, well, we've done it.
We've done the jet.
That's right.
And drop.
That's the other thing you can tell.
That's we're not going to keep going forever.
Well, that's, of course, that really, Mr. President, in the final analysis, if we had a period of months where the statistics were good, we would so...
completely defuse the economy as a political issue, at least as far as inflation is concerned.
In particular, there's an expansion, which is there.
Most people think it's there, despite the market.
Oh, god, the M&M commits.
Everything I look at, I just looked at the latest retail credit report from the credit bureaus, just going up steadily.
In fact, it shows the biggest curve line up on extended credit.
that has occurred since Fogata goes off the chart.
It's the sharpest increase in the past.
It's really too bad Conley's away now.
Yeah, it is.
On the other hand, I suppose he's a bet on our labor.
Totally.
George Meany just, you know, the phrase Conley and his running Joe, I know that George Meany is just kind of like a drifter.
Always got rid of him.
He's got a
We've got a few little chips we can play, too.
Of course, he'd be one hell of a villain, as you think about it.
If he does do this, I'd rather see us keep it patched together long enough to get about four or five months of good figures.
But if he does become the villain, he's a hell of a good one to fight.
Okay.
I'll make that point, and I'll do some fishing with Fitz and Mulchstone, and I'll get with Schultz in the morning.
Thank you, Mr. President.
Thank you.