On November 2, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone from 11:44 pm to 11:57 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 013-080 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Hello.
Hello, Henry.
Mr. President.
I'm just thinking that it's really a pleasure to have somebody here that's just openly a friend of the United States.
Exactly.
What do you think?
He was such a nice little fellow, and by God, he's for us, and, you know, and appreciates it.
I thought you must have gotten a kick out of it.
Oh, I thought it was such a warm-hearted dinner.
I thought your toast was particularly warm and friendly.
And they need it.
I think that's what they want to hear.
Oh, that's what they want.
I don't doubt that you'd get quite a result.
I'm inclined to think we ought to consider that.
Well, the way we should do it, Mr. And I think your idea of the saddle would be great.
In fact, you can even explore that.
Oh, no, no, you're right.
You don't want to do it.
They'll leak it out.
Well,
If we can get it, if I should be going there in, say, early February, then I could tell it to Sato personally.
Right, right.
And then if we met Sato in Hawaii, and then you went on from there to Australia and New Zealand and came back.
And that would be a very good visit.
I think you'd also get a good reception in Hawaii, having just been in China.
Oh, hell yes.
and a two-day meeting with Bill and head on down.
I think it's only eight hours to Australia.
No, we could do it.
We could sleep and all that.
But I just think going to Australia might have a nice touch.
You know, after all, they are down there in the hinge, and people can talk all they want that Americans, well, that we wouldn't keep a treaty, for example, if Thailand were threatened.
And I suppose that there would be a doubt in some people's minds.
By God, does anybody doubt that America wouldn't come to the aid of Australia if they tried to take them on?
Huh?
Really?
You can't make that silly argument that Lippmann and others made that these people are people far away that we don't know.
God damn it, they're very much like America.
And that's the thing.
You know, anybody like, as I pointed out, that served with Australia before, they're fantastic people.
God damn, they fight and they're tough.
And they have stuck to us very well this whole period.
That's right.
And they could have gone running to their British friends.
They said a very interesting thing.
She did.
She said, you know, she said, I don't think that the British going into the market is all that difficult for us.
She said, it just means we're going to have to learn to do business with other people, particularly with you and others.
See, the Australians are now looking for an alignment with us.
Now, they've got these huge natural resources.
See, this is the common thing.
I think we ought to play that again.
Let's sort of work the Australians together.
Don't you think so?
Absolutely.
And I think in any event for the next few months, we all do have a phase of dealing with our friends.
That's right.
Matter of fact, I may relent and...
and have a few more of this kind of visit.
They just come in for an informal visit where we don't have two days.
That's right.
And see them in the morning, give them a dinner at night, and out.
That's right.
This is enough for us.
This to this australian meant everything.
Oh, God, you've really solidified his domestic position.
And praised him as a world statesman.
That's important to him, isn't it?
Oh, yeah.
And I think it will read well in Australia.
They won't tell you here, of course, but it will read well in Australia that the President of the United States remembers the Coast Watchers in Solomon Island.
Oh, that's what really matters.
Because it's a wonderful story.
It's true.
They know the Coast Watchers.
Every Marine knows them.
And every Navy man knows them.
Incidentally, I had another thought.
Claire Luce was here tonight.
I don't know whether you said hello to her or not.
I said hello, and I'm going to try to have lunch with her.
Well, I thought you should know, she is all out with what we're doing.
She was saying to me, now look, she said, they would criticize if Henry had gone later.
He says, that doesn't matter.
She says, the point is, he said, you had to change the game.
You've changed the game.
And now, just go ahead.
And you know, she has...
She is making this speech to the effect that history is one sentence.
Nixon may have written this sentence.
He opened up China.
And I had a thought on her.
And this is a way that we can recognize women that I haven't thought of.
How about putting her, Henry, on either the intelligence board or the arms board?
Now, here's an intelligent woman who's tough.
I am for it.
How about it?
Would you would you would you explore that with her?
Claire Booth Luce?
Tell him I want a woman on the board.
I think it would be a fantastically good thing to do.
It's a more interesting board.
How about...
I think the other thing would bore her to death.
My thought is if you put her on the intelligence board, she would be a great asset, a great asset.
And it would mean one hell of a lot to women in America that we recognize.
No woman, you know, Henry, has ever been on either of those boards.
But to put her on the intelligence board, everybody knows that's the one that everybody wants to be in.
Couldn't we add one to that?
We don't have to.
That isn't limited, is it?
No.
Why don't we just add her to that board?
Let me look into it.
You look into it.
Look into it.
And if not, let me talk to Haig.
On the intelligence board, it'd be more fun for her.
Right.
And there are a number of old folks there that need to be replaced.
That's right.
On the arms board, she would tilt the balance to the right, which is also important.
That's right.
So really, ISA would be helpful.
But I think if you talked to her, I bet you she'd just love to do it.
Love to do it.
It's recognition of ISA.
And I'd just like to recognize her for another reason.
I'll never forgive the Senate for turning her down for ambassador to Argentina.
Do you remember?
Brazil.
Brazil.
And so we don't have to get an approval.
This would be a very good way to recognize one of our friends.
We need Senate approval for... Arms board?
Arms board.
Put her on the intelligence board.
I'm going to check into that, too.
Right.
Good.
We got a message from Walter.
Oh, yeah.
You know, he gave those three messages, and then he was called back.
And he said the ambassador, on behalf of the Chinese government, wants to point out that they are very pleased that Mrs. Nixon will be coming with the president.
Good.
Oh, they want to know whether your daughters are coming too, but I don't think so.
No, no.
That's right.
We shouldn't do that.
And he said the Chinese government was also pleased that the president would be going to Hangzhou in September.
In China, they had a saying, there were two places worth seeing, heaven and hell.
And they would try to make these two places the same for the president.
Well, this means everything's on top.
Exactly.
And then it goes on.
They didn't approve the date yet.
No, but that was enough.
He had only had it for 24 hours.
And he said Ambassador Fuak said he had heard from the Chinese.
He said it was both absurd and dangerous for 800 million Chinese and 200 million Americans.
What was being done by President Nixon was of strong current historic importance.
President Nixon is a most courageous man.
Mr. Rex from the New York Times might not think he was courageous, but Joe and I know that the President was most courageous.
He said it was fortunate that both sides have courageous men.
Is this the ambassador talking or Joe and I?
Well, this is the ambassador talking for Joe and I, but there's one thing you can be sure with these ambassadors, President.
You don't think they're not like the Marines?
Well, it isn't just that, Mr. President.
It isn't just that they are told exactly what to say.
They are told at what point they can shake hands.
Oh, yes.
Whether to greet the man at the door or whether to offer tea.
I know, I know.
And they have no freedom at all.
And moreover, this man, as McMahon told you, is the highest ranking Chinese diplomat.
Let me ask you this.
He's a member of the Central Committee.
Yeah, but I thought he'd already gone back.
No, what happened was we sent him in.
And just before he left, he called Walters back in with his message.
Oh, this is something that's just come in.
It has just come in, oh, half an hour ago.
Oh, I thought he was, and now he's going back to China.
Well, he's gone back yesterday evening, and Walters always sends it back to Korea, so we only got it today.
Well, this is, and also, he must do this in the light of the UN.
Oh, yeah.
I personally think the UN, I think they realize it.
the U.N. thing showed, and the terrific outcry, showed what a hell of a problem we had.
Don't you think so?
Oh, yes.
Oh, yes.
You probably understand, too, that they can now see that that threat on the right was no idle threat that you talked about.
Well, so from that point of view, it wasn't acid.
But it didn't hurt.
That's right.
And one point I thought through at fall today about the foreign aid thing, he said, as a Democrat, he regrets that we lost this year.
because he said next year if we wouldn't have lost 59 to 55 we would have suffered a smashing defeat and it would have happened two weeks before the election and he said we would have lost next year by 20 votes and he's got a point he's being honest and look I know and you know that much as we hate the way the god damn thing has ended and all this flack we're taking it'll pass two or three weeks and then we go on to other things
But it's well to have it behind you.
In fact, Mr. President, if we had a halfway through a government and we had leadership through here, somebody would say privately that we handled this thing really with great skill.
Oh, hell yeah.
By fighting a tough battle but keeping you somewhat disengaged from it.
And also fighting it in a way that
that I can handle, and I'm the only person, by God, on the American scene that can do it, can handle a Ronald Reagan.
Now, Ronald Reagan has a hell of a support in this family.
If they had half a brain, they'd recognize that what you said last week was the absolute minimum.
You could have said... Well, they'd have killed me if I hadn't said something.
You had to say something.
Most of them wanted me to say to get out of the U.N.
Anyway, it's done, and I'm not worried about the police.
I think that's just one of those things.
You know, I expected it.
I told you at the time, I said, sure, we'll take some heat from this, but I said, we'll take a hell of a lot more heat if I don't say something.
We'd have had an uproar on the right.
We've got enough of this.
But we'd have had an uproar on the right, and that would have been unbelievable.
That's right.
Well, you might, if you have time tomorrow, give her a call.
Just say that I've raised this money.
She'll just love being considered.
Anything you want.
Okay.
But I just thought you'd get it.
And incidentally, too, that Pierce is terrific.
You're going to have a singer.
You might as well have the best.
And he's just one of the great stars of the new generation.
And wasn't that last song, 90, when he said you'll never walk alone?
Oh, yeah.
Okay.