Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 13 › Conversation 013-083

Nixon phone call with Colson on Pay Board and Labor relations

Wednesday, November 3, 1971 · 9:00 AM–9:11 AM ET · White House Telephone · 10 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Colson, Charles W.Conversation013-083 on Tape 13 (tape position 03:04:01–03:13:54)StartWednesday, November 3, 1971 at 9:00 AMEndWednesday, November 3, 1971 at 9:11 AMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 013-083 ↗ · National Archives Catalog, NAID 417190381 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and Charles Colson discussed ongoing negotiations with labor leaders regarding the Pay Board and the economic freeze. Colson reported progress in securing a commitment from Frank Fitzsimmons to maintain labor participation on the board, provided the sanctity of contracts is recognized. Additionally, the pair reviewed recent election results—highlighting victories by Rizzo, Perk, and Heinz—and analyzed Louis Harris’s polling data concerning public sentiment on Vietnam, the United Nations, and the political opposition.

Audio

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NARA Description

On November 3, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:00 am and 9:11 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 013-083 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 013-083

Date: November 3, 1971
Time: Unknown between 9:00 am and 9:11 am
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with Charles W. Colson.

[See Conversation No. 301-7A]

     National economy
          -Pay Board
                -Colson's conversation with Frank Fitzsimmons
                      -Contracts
                      -Deferred wage payments
                            -George P. Shultz
                -Benjamin F. Biaggini's proposal
                      -George Meany
                -Contracts
                      -Management's view
                -Fitzsimmons’ participation
                -Colson's conversation with Jay Lovestone
                      -President's schedule

                             -American Federation of Labor-Council of Industrial Organizations
                                  [AFL-CIO] Convention
                       -Meany's participation
                       -Possible extension of freeze
                             -Effect
                 -President's schedule
                       -Colson, Shultz
                       -Arnold R. Weber
                 -President's conversation with Shultz
                 -President's schedule
            -Colson's forthcoming meeting with unions
                 -Wheat deal

     Louis P. Harris
          -Poll
                -Vietnam
                -Peoples Republic of China [PRC]
                     -United Nations [UN] vote
                -Vietnam
                     -Public mood
          -Column
          -Poll
                -PRC
                -UN
                -Economy
                     -Phase II
                -Edward M. Kennedy
                -UN
                -Democratic public relations efforts
                     -Harris’ views

     Elections, November 2nd
           -Effect on Administration
                -Frank L. Rizzo
                      -William Thacher Longstreth
                -Ralph J. Perk
                -Richard G. Lugar
                -Perk
                      -Previous assistance to Administration

                 -H. John ("Jack") Heinz, III
                       -James D. Corbett
                       -Support of Boilermakers and other unions
                            -George R. Bell’s efforts
                 -Rizzo
                       -Social issue

Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Mr. Phillips and Mr. President.
There you are.
Good morning, Mr. President.
What is the situation on the labor thing?
Anything new to report?
Well, yes, a little bit, sir.
I talked to Fitzsimmons, and Fitz is great.
He'll hang with us on everything except the one problem, that he claims that labor as a united front would...
simply be unable to go along with the payboard if we didn't recognize the sanctity of contracts in principle and that doesn't suggest how the payments have to be made or how they have to be stretched out or whether all have to be made but the principle has to be recognized i think from what george schultz and i last night were able to determine that's the consensus of most of the feeling what about the uh nothing developed between the business fellows and uh yes
uh yes i know they were george told me that but i didn't get a report after the meeting that biagini was in this group was going to put something up but did i think her yes the biagini was meeting with the business side up with the business side last night the public members this morning trying to put a consensus together and i gather he had done some some spade work with meanie because meanie yesterday afternoon was a great deal more conciliatory than he was during the morning session and he and biagini kind of led the discussion and the two of them together
Well, I think the two of them, at least Fitz's feeling last night when I talked to him, was that the two of them have arrived at some general understanding.
And I think it looks pretty good.
I don't think it's, well, I would have to say today I don't think it's going to blow.
I think that if the business people, perhaps unanimously, if we could get it, or maybe with one dissent, because there's one hard rock in there,
come around and say, well, we do recognize the principle of sanctity of contracts, which is something hard for them not to do, really.
We're going to work out the amounts, and we're going to work out the schedule of payments, and we're going to work this out.
But we do recognize the principle.
Then she'll stay together.
And I extracted yesterday from Fitz a flat-out commitment that he would not...
leave the board or walk out under any circumstances, provided that one point is covered.
And he said, from there on, you can count on me right all the way through next year.
So that's a good step.
I met with Lovestone last evening and planted all the thoughts that we discussed, including the one about your not being able to come to the convention if, he said, I mean, he wants you to come to the convention, very much wants you to.
that you would get a good reception, that he personally does not think Meany will walk out of this thing, certainly not before the convention.
That's his own assessment.
And he thinks Meany is boxed.
He made it very clear.
He said, I don't think that George really, really has any choice in the matter.
So I think that also fits planted with Meany's interesting idea that if Meany were to walk out,
that he, Fitz, would recommend to you, that you simply extend the freeze, which means that workers get nothing, and that Meany would then be put in the position of having, by picking up his marbles and walking away from the game, would then be in the position of having denied his own workers a pay increase that they otherwise would have gotten.
That's a pretty powerful weapon.
Might do that, too.
Well, we parlayed that a bit yesterday afternoon.
We had Fitz saying, taking that line in the payboard,
Right.
So I think, Mr. President, we'll know, of course, their meeting this morning with the... Yeah, then there'll be no reason for us to have a meeting today.
And, yeah, you know, the thing at 3 o'clock we were talking about.
I don't want to just sit and guess about it.
That's the point.
I don't think...
I don't really think that it's necessary, Mr. President, unless something happens this afternoon to change it.
Well, give me a call in case you think that the meeting between Weber, Schultz, and you will be important as to what role we can play.
See?
George and I would like to leave Weber out of that, Mr. President, because...
We don't think you should have any contact.
I see, with the board.
I agree, I agree, I agree.
He's a board member here.
That's right.
Fine, well, just George and you, then fine.
You talk to George, and if you or George both want to talk, why, they will do it.
But I don't want to talk about a progress thing, you know, because I don't want to get into these day-to-day heckles.
No, you shouldn't have to.
That's up to the boys to work something out.
I gave George, I talked to him on the phone, gave him all the guidelines, and he knows exactly what I'm willing to do.
Yes, and he and I met last night at 7.30 to do this.
Right.
We won't bother you unless it takes a bad turn.
Just assume we'll keep it on the track.
Okay, okay.
And then if there is a problem, we'll let you know, sir.
I think we'll be okay.
I'm working with the unions this morning on our wheat deal, so we'll see if we can... We hope that works out.
We've got them all coming in here, and we'll sit them down and put them through the griddle.
I think we can...
Well, we'll do our best to get that one locked up and underway this week.
Right, right, right.
Okay, fine, fine.
Nothing else you have today?
No, nothing too important.
Well, interesting report from Lou Harris, who was out surveying last week.
And I'll send you a memo on it because it's very complicated.
He finds that the Vietnam sentiment continuing to...
to go down and down.
He said he was just staggered by the results.
But the China thing, he finds the public reaction really didn't change a hell of a lot on China as a result of the Taiwan vote.
I'll give you a... By the Vietnam term, you mean support for Vietnam.
Support for Vietnam, he said, is just... Oh, we know that.
Keeping on a steady line down, he said he had hoped that the issue... Blue is basically a hawk, as I guess I've told you.
Yeah.
And...
He said that he had hoped that the thing was diffused.
He said he discovers that it is still very much an issue, that high in people's minds, and that at this point, their support for the country of Vietnam has gone way down, all the time low, just way the hell down.
I got him to change.
The wording of his column yesterday, which I thought would have been a little tough for you before the speech, but... Yeah, that's all right.
Well, it doesn't make that much difference.
I don't think it does, although I took some of the stuff out.
What else?
The China thing, he didn't find too much change.
He said he found no change, and interestingly enough, the support for the UN hadn't changed as a result of the Taiwan incident.
I would question that, but nevertheless, that may be...
Well, the way he asked the questions, he didn't get right to the gut questions, but he said that he wouldn't.
Of course, that's one where he would not want the support of the U.N. to change, you know, too.
He might not ask it too tough.
He didn't.
You know, because I know his views on that.
Yeah.
He thinks politically things are still going very well for us, although he's a little concerned over attitudes on phase two, but he thinks that'll snap up.
How does he feel about the economy?
He still feels the same.
He talked about the American business community in a way that would have made us sound quiet.
He said he's never seen such a bunch of goddamn... What's he think about our Democratic candidates now?
They're...
They're certainly floundering around.
What about the Teddy tax?
Did you go into that?
Yes, and he said there's no doubt in his mind what Kennedy is doing.
He absolutely recognizes the pattern from other years that he's just lashing out daily, that he's trying to take the lead position.
What's he think about the rather sustained democratic and editorial attack we've had since the U.N. thing?
He doesn't think that's going to hurt us a bit.
He thinks you were perfectly past it in the U.N. Yeah, to get out of the way.
Right.
And incidentally, one thing I think was good with those mayor race yesterday.
Rizzo, of course, is by far better for us than Longstrat.
That helps us.
And Perk winning in Cleveland is good.
I mean, any Republican is better than any Democrat, you know what I mean?
Right, right.
And, of course, Lugar ran a hell of a race.
He just went all out, so...
Perk is not just a Republican.
He's been a part of our white ethnic operation, and he's an Eastern European Catholic... Good man, huh?
Hardliner, former freedom fighter guy, very close to our operations.
I think he's...
all right well i'm going to call him and that heights heinz that's quite a that's quite a victory for us yeah well it's we should win that though corbett had it all the time well but that district he's kind of on the liberal side i know the district democratic oh hell very and very heavily labor i had george back up there this weekend some of the labor meetings oh that boilermakers affair turned out to be quite a quite a thing they uh the unions
The hardline unions, the building trades and the construction unions were really working for this guy.
And George said it was amazing.
That Boilermakers dinner, they had 2,500 people and gave your message a standing ovation.
That's that crowd that you had in one day, the labor boys.
That's an area of Pennsylvania where we're going to go in there at a proper time.
We're going to surprise a lot of people in that area.
Right.
Well, I think Rizzo's thing is very significant, you know, because basically it's an interesting thing in Philadelphia.
The Rizzo vote really was more our vote than the Longstreth vote.
Longstreth was appealing to the blacks and the Jews.
That's right.
And Rizzo was appealing to the white ethnics.
It was the goddamn thing you ever saw.
It was exactly turned around.
That's right.
And he got some Democrats, of course.
But it's very interesting that Longstreth, you see, the Republican went just for the, he went for the other issue.
Well, anyway.
Well, that shows you the potency of the social issue.
Right.
Yes, sir.
Thank you, Mr. President.

Also recorded on November 3, 1971

  • 013-081 8:55 AM · 17 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at 8:55 am.
  • 013-082 8:55 AM · 8 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 8:55 am and 9:00 am.
  • 301-003 8:55 AM · 19 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at 8:55 am.
  • 301-004 8:55 AM · 9 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 8:55 am and 9:00 am.
  • 301-005 8:55 AM · 21 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 8:55 am and 9:00 am.
  • 301-006 8:55 AM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 8:55 am and 9:00 am.
  • 301-007 9:00 AM · 3 hr 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 9:00 am to 12:14 pm.
  • 013-084 9:12 AM · 2 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Frank L. Rizzo talked on the telephone from 9:12 am to 9:13 am.

All 64 conversations from November 3, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 013-083, November 3, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives (NAID 417190381). Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/013-083 (accessed November 14, 2026).