{"conversationCode":"013-096","tapeNumber":13,"conversationNumber":96,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-013-096","startDateTime":"1971-11-03T16:10:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1971-11-03T16:17:00.000Z","startDate":"3-Nov-1971","startTime":"11:10 AM","endDate":"3-Nov-1971","endTime":"11:17 AM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Mitchell, John N.;","description":"On November 3, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and John N. Mitchell talked on the telephone from 11:10 am to 11:17 am. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 013-096 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":2,"chronRelease":"Second Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"26-Oct-2000","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 013-096\n\nDate: November 3, 1971\nTime: 11:10 am - 11:17 am\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nThe President talked with John N. Mitchell.\n\n[See Conversation No. 301-7Q]\n\n     Grand Rapids, Michigan case\n          -Gerald R. Ford's conversation with President\n          -Judge Albert J. Engel, Jr.\n                 -Father Albert J. Engel\n                 -Busing order\n                       -Ford’s concern\n                       -Robert P. Griffin\n                       -Philip A. Hart\n                             -Recall\n          -Mitchell's possible intervention\n                 -Texas and Tennessee cases\n                 -Timing\n          -Mitchell's conversations\n                 -Ford\n                 -Griffin\n          -Detroit situation\n                 -Possible Department of Justice intervention\n          -Mitchell's forthcoming conversation with Ford\n     Mitchell's schedule\n          -Dinner for Griffin\n                 -Possible remarks\n                       -Busing\n\n     Elections, November 2nd\n           -Frank L. Rizzo\n           -Cleveland\n           -Richard G. Lugar\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n            -Pete Wilson\n\n**********************************************************************\n\n[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 02/08/2019.\nSegment cleared for release.]\n[Personal Returnable]\n[013-096-w001]\n[Duration: 1m 40s]\n\n       Kentucky gubernatorial election\n             -Republican loss\n             -Differences between gubernatorial and senatorial races\n             -Importance of local issues\n             -President’s impact on election outcome\n             -John N. Mitchell's conversation with editor of Louisville Courier\n                     -Thomas D. Emberton\n\n       New Jersey\n             -State legislature elections\n                     -State House\n                     -State Senate\n                     -Frank S. (\"Hap\") Farley\n                             -Election loss\n                     -Essex County\n             -Washington Post coverage\n                     -Description of elections as referendum on President’s economic policy\n\n**********************************************************************\n\n            -President's telephone calls\n                  -Rizzo, Perk\n                  -Buhlen[?]\n                  -Lugar, Wilson\n            -Rizzo\n                  -Support for administration\n                  -Call to Walter H. Annenberg\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n                 -Rose Mary Woods’ call to the President\n                 -Mitchell's call to Annenberg\n\n**********************************************************************\n\n[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 02/08/2019.\nSegment cleared for release.]\n[Personal Returnable]\n[013-096-w002]\n[Duration: 1m 46s]\n\n       Milton J. Shapp\n              -Role in Philadelphia mayoral election\n              -Opposition to Frank L. Rizzo in primary election\n              -Contrasted with W. Thacher Longstreth\n                      -Base of support for W. Thacher Longstreth\n                             -Black\n                             -Young\n                             -Poor\n                      -John N. Mitchell’s opinion\n              -Pennsylvania politics\n\n       Pittsburgh\n               -Local elections\n                      -Victory of Robert Duggan\n                      -Congressional election\n                              -[Henry] John (“Jack”) Heinz, III\n               -Robert Duggan\n                      -District attorney race\n               -Richard G. Kleindienst's efforts in district attorney race\n\n       Favorability of election results in an off-year\n\n       Linwood Holton\n             -Son\n             -Helps president\n             -Work with Democrats\n\n       Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, NARA Online Public Access Catalog Identifier: 597542\n\n**********************************************************************","filename":["013-096.mp3"],"tapeStart":"03:26:05","tapeEnd":"03:32:50","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Mitchell, John N."],"prevCode":"013-095","nextCode":"013-097","transcript":[{"start":0.03,"end":1.18,"text":"Hello."},{"start":1.2,"end":2.12,"text":"Yes, Mr. President."},{"start":2.56,"end":6.84,"text":"Jerry Ford talked to me about a Grand Rapids case."},{"start":8.76,"end":10.85,"text":"The case involves a..."},{"start":11.1,"end":17.05,"text":"of all things, a Republican judge, not appointed by us, but he's the son of Al Engle, who used to be in the Congress, remember?"},{"start":17.25,"end":17.93,"text":"Yes, I did."},{"start":17.95,"end":21.67,"text":"And he's Republican, but not very bright, as indicated by this decision."},{"start":21.75,"end":26.56,"text":"He's ordered a busing plan or an integration plan in Grand Rapids."},{"start":26.76,"end":33.97,"text":"He's ordered a plan that would, like some of them have, consider mixing the suburbs with the city core."},{"start":33.99,"end":34.79,"text":"Mixing the suburbs."},{"start":34.81,"end":35.61,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":35.63,"end":37.21,"text":"Now, let me ask this."},{"start":37.7,"end":44.65,"text":"Jerry, of course, feels that it both naturally is concerned about that, but he's thinking more in terms of Griffin."},{"start":46.21,"end":60.16,"text":"And, of course, as you know, they've got that recall on Hart, that if this could be one of those cases where you could see your way clear to intervene, you know, to say this goes beyond the Supreme Court thing or whatever the hell it is,"},{"start":60.66,"end":65.15,"text":"that, like you did in, you know, Texas and Tennessee."},{"start":65.59,"end":69.58,"text":"And it occurred to me that you're going to do Griffin, I understand, or something."},{"start":69.59,"end":69.96,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":71.32,"end":77,"text":"But if you could do that, and do it just before you went up there, it could have one hell of an impact."},{"start":77.65,"end":78.85,"text":"But I don't know."},{"start":79.09,"end":82.53,"text":"I've talked to Jerry about it, and also to Bob Griffin."},{"start":83.01,"end":86.2,"text":"We also have, in the same posture out there, Detroit."},{"start":86.45,"end":94.04,"text":"And I've got a study being made to see if there's a possible way that we could credibly intervene in the picture."},{"start":94.3,"end":94.52,"text":"Right."},{"start":96.12,"end":99.45,"text":"Well, if you'd let Jerry know that I've talked to you about it, he was there to see me yesterday."},{"start":99.51,"end":101.41,"text":"I told him I would mention it to you."},{"start":101.81,"end":102.15,"text":"Very good."},{"start":102.17,"end":112.37,"text":"And so if you'll tell him I've talked to him, and in any event, I mean, just put all the goddamn rhetoric in you can when you're up there, I mean, putting me on the side against busing."},{"start":112.43,"end":115.17,"text":"I know this breaks your heart to do that, but please do it."},{"start":115.19,"end":115.93,"text":"I'll be delighted."},{"start":116.67,"end":120,"text":"I was pleased with the mayoralty races, weren't you?"},{"start":120.22,"end":120.48,"text":"Yes."},{"start":120.9,"end":122.98,"text":"We got Rizzo, which is the one we wanted."},{"start":123.6,"end":124.12,"text":"Don't you agree?"},{"start":124.18,"end":124.9,"text":"Very much so."},{"start":124.96,"end":127.85,"text":"And the Cleveland oddity is a good one."},{"start":127.91,"end":128.79,"text":"That's right."},{"start":128.81,"end":133.16,"text":"The Lugar situation came out far better than was anticipated."},{"start":133.18,"end":133.25,"text":"62%."},{"start":133.31,"end":134.54,"text":"And we got San Diego, you know."},{"start":135.72,"end":136,"text":"Yes."},{"start":136.06,"end":138.66,"text":"Young Wilson won 63% of the vote."},{"start":140.63,"end":144.23,"text":"I think that in balance we came out pretty good."},{"start":244.19,"end":246.14,"text":"I have called, incidentally, all the winners."},{"start":246.2,"end":257.83,"text":"I've called Rizzo, I've called Perk, and I called, uh, actually, uh, not Bulan, but, uh, Lugar, and, uh,"},{"start":258.54,"end":260.12,"text":"the fellow out in California, Wilson."},{"start":260.44,"end":260.56,"text":"Good."},{"start":260.62,"end":263.55,"text":"So it's good to have some of these guys."},{"start":264.15,"end":266.34,"text":"Was Rizzo responsive?"},{"start":267.18,"end":268.44,"text":"All the way, believe me."},{"start":268.7,"end":274.86,"text":"Immediately after I called him, and I found this out because Rose called Annenberg at my suggestion to be sure we followed up,"},{"start":274.84,"end":277.48,"text":"Said that, look, he says, you don't need to worry about it."},{"start":277.52,"end":283.55,"text":"He says, after the president called him Rizzo, called him long distance in London, repeated everything the president told him on the phone."},{"start":284.13,"end":288.94,"text":"I talked to Walter last week, and he had been talking to Rizzo, and everything was still on."},{"start":289.48,"end":290.46,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":290.49,"end":291.97,"text":"We've got to keep that one very close."},{"start":292.67,"end":293.85,"text":"That's one we really need."},{"start":294.81,"end":296.27,"text":"It could be a tremendous help."},{"start":296.3,"end":296.44,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":296.84,"end":299.38,"text":"And I don't see how they can turn him around, frankly."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Attorney General John Mitchell discuss the possibility of the Department of Justice intervening in a Grand Rapids, Michigan, school busing case following concerns raised by Representative Gerald Ford and Senator Robert Griffin. The President urges Mitchell to signal administration opposition to busing during upcoming appearances with Michigan lawmakers and to investigate similar intervention potential in Detroit. Additionally, the pair reviews the positive results of the recent November 2nd mayoral elections, specifically noting the strong support from Philadelphia's Frank Rizzo and the successful reelection of mayors in Cleveland, Indianapolis, and San Diego.","topics":["School busing","Department of Justice","Gerald R. Ford","Elections","Frank L. Rizzo","Federal intervention"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-05T23:50:41.583Z"},"topicSlugs":["school-busing","department-of-justice","gerald-r-ford","elections","frank-l-rizzo","federal-intervention"],"audioDurationSec":405,"audioFiles":[{"file":"013-096.mp3","bytes":9717550,"durationSec":404.83,"bitrate":192030,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:22.041Z","findingAidSource":"nixonlibrary.gov subject log (2024-05), reslice-v2","findingAidUpdatedAt":"2026-09-18T08:42:36.414Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/013-096.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/013-096","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/13/conversation-013-096","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}