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Conversation 014-027

TapeTape 14StartWednesday, November 10, 1971 at 8:07 PMEndWednesday, November 10, 1971 at 8:20 PMTape start time00:38:14Tape end time00:51:10ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  White House operator;  Kissinger, Henry A.Recording deviceWhite House Telephone
AI Summary

President Nixon and Henry Kissinger discuss personnel concerns regarding Secretary of the Air Force Robert C. Seamans, Jr. and the internal political dynamics involving Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird and Secretary of State William P. Rogers. They address strategic planning for upcoming Vietnam troop withdrawal announcements and the timing of congressional pressure. Additionally, they review Kissinger's recent media engagements regarding foreign policy—including India-Pakistan tensions—and coordinate the scheduling of upcoming meetings with international leaders like Willy Brandt and Georges Pompidou.

Vietnam WarTroop WithdrawalsMelvin LairdWilliam P. RogersForeign PolicyPersonnel ManagementInternational Relations
AudioNARA Description

On November 10, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, White House operator, and Henry A. Kissinger talked on the telephone from 8:07 pm to 8:20 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 014-027 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 14-27

Date: November 10, 1971
Time: 8:07 pm - 8:20 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with the White House operator.

The President talked with Henry A. Kissinger.

     Kissinger's conversation with Nelson A. Rockefeller
          -The President's speech at New York fund-raising dinner
                -Rockefeller's view
                -William P. Rogers
                      -Israeli negotiations
                -Rockefeller's opinion

     Robert C. Seamans, Jr.
         -The President’s opinion
         -The President's meeting with Laird
         -Kissinger's conversation with Laird

     The President's meeting with Rogers
          -Alexander M. Haig, Jr.'s conversation with Kissinger

     -Vietnam negotiations
          -Public knowledge
     -Vietnam troop withdrawals
          -Announcement
                -Timing
                -Disclosure

Kissinger's dinner with Newsweek editors, November 9
     -Indira Gandhi
     -John A. Scali
     -India-Pakistan
           -Interview with Gandhi
           -Edward M. Kennedy
     -Vietnam
           -Troop withdrawals
                 -Deadlines
     -Calls to Kissinger
           -Mel Elfin, John[?] Osborne, Henry Hubbard[?] and Stewart J.O. Alsop
           -Foreign policy
                 -People's Republic of China [PRC], Soviet Union and Vietnam

Henry A. Grunwald
     -Conversation with Kissinger
          -Times "Man of the Year"
               -Willy Brandt

Rogers and Laird
    -Conversation with the President and Kissinger
          -Kissinger's conversation with Haig
    -Motives
    -Support for the President

Vietnam
     -Troop withdrawals
          -Laird
          -Possible action by Congress
          -Announcement

The President's schedule
     -Brandt
     -Georges J.R. Pompidou
     -Rogers’ knowledge

          -Foreign trip
               -Latin America
               -State of the Union

     Vietnam
          -Troop withdrawals
               -The President's forthcoming announcement
               -Laird
               -Rogers
               -Haig

     Rockefeller
         -The President's fund-raising speech, November 9
                -Kissinger's presence
                      -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

yeah hello hello don't interrupt your dinner but i wanted to know oh where are you i'm glad he liked it all right that's nice and safe you know we uh rogers was there i didn't i of course acknowledge him when i
spoke, but I didn't say anything about him on the foreign policy.
I was speaking to the whole network and also, after all, in New York, there's a hell of a lot of people that don't approve of what he's done in Israel, so I just didn't mention it.
Let me ask you, what did you think of Laird's performance today?
I guess that's why I just got up on Siemens.
I don't care much about Siemens, but God damn it, Siemens is not our friend, is he?
Well, Mr. President, you have been trying to get rid of him for three years, Mr. Secretary of the Air Force.
I know.
Is he our friend or not, or what is he?
He's basically one of those intellectuals.
That's right.
But I don't think he's a guy we can work with too well.
I don't have any alternative, but I just think you ought to try to find one.
But I had to say that I just didn't take this.
You just can't walk in here and say, look, here's the ones we're going to have.
good well it'll shake him up a little mel needs it'll affect him a little but i'm telling you his uh his line and so forth told me about the meeting yeah right he didn't take mel's line but he uh
Because Mel had gotten to him.
Well, his worry is also that you'll reveal his association with Daniel.
And it's another complicit instruction.
Oh, you think he's worried about you?
Oh, yeah.
And he's very sensitive.
Does he want to speak to you?
My worry is, my feeling is that I don't know whether he's associated with Daniel.
But I feel if you go to him long enough, then you're going to be able to speak to all of them.
is what it is to us.
On the other hand, Henry, in January, you see what we're, Bill makes one point which may be valid, and that is that if we make a two-month announcement in January, we've got to make a big one.
Yeah.
But what can we say then?
That's the point.
We can say enough, by the way.
You see what I mean?
Well, then you can, what I would do in cancer is, today I'm going down to whatever the residual bullet is, and should I, but I wouldn't call it a residual bullet, I don't see at all what you're doing there.
Except that if I took it as a real thing, I'd need to do it again, or I'd just forget it.
issue out of the way at that point.
If negotiations fail, you've really got to get the... You were starting to tell me about Newsweek and Gandhi.
First of all, Pakistan.
And I've really made an impression on it.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
the point was that they said Kennedy is now going to try to push them into these things.
What?
Cutting off aid?
Yeah.
But that is the main thing.
They are not even going to be on Pakistan.
I think you might just hear it.
But they literally discussed Vietnam until the meeting was two hours old.
Then they said, well, what about
Then they said, what about the deadline?
I said, you know, you can figure out the deadline yourself.
Because we've never done this before.
We've just played with you.
I said, what are we going to do?
I said, there was
Today, four of the phone-ups helped him ask for a cuppa, saying it was a trial, the greatest meeting they've ever had with anybody.
And I was extremely offended.
China and Russia
I just fixed it all.
China, Toronto, Vietnam.
And I said, Judy is one of them.
Coming back to your conversation with Schoenwald, do you think he's on the level of what he's saying?
Oh, yes.
He said there's only one.
He said it's not each road.
There is only one possible path.
They're doing that because of...
Well, we will talk to Hagen.
You talk to him since we have a meeting with Roger at my house.
It's really good.
You and I were together then.
We told him.
That's right.
Yeah.
That's the point.
I beg your pardon?
So that they can be for something else.
Well.
I mean, when you have to take a close one, they ought to really come around and say, well, what do you do?
They ought to be telling you, Mr. President, you've got so well up your nose, you can go to either that grid with a hundred people behind you, or you can just be fighting people no matter what you do.
Well, they'll never say that.
Well, we'll get Rogers aboard.
We can do that.
Yeah.
That's what you'll have to go through there.
Right.
Yeah, well, Laird opened that one up by what he said.
I was trying to, you know, play a little.
That's right.
He can't say he
authorized or advocated for except for the fact that once the congress begins trying to get ahead of us
Yes, I know, but in January, if we announce it, we then have the yearbook.
Well, but they won't have much time to get ahead of you.
Well, maybe not.
Because they won't get back till January 8th, but you can call the shots anytime you want, and you can still know that you're here.
You had anything further from the Germans as to whether they were still in that situation?
The Germans.
The Germans.
As to whether they'll come for the meeting.
Oh, yeah, that's all, sir.
The date?
Well, they're waiting on us.
Oh, that's good.
They're waiting for Pompidou.
Well, he has to come first.
That's right, yeah.
And then we will have my bride, if you think so, please.
Good.
See, Rogers doesn't know about those meetings.
That's why I said... Oh, I don't give a shit about the Christmas.
The main thing is I put the Latin American thing so after the State of the Union.
I think you'd be happy to chuck it down there then and get it done.
I'd just not have it bothering me beforehand.
Isn't that important?
I think that's good.
But I believe, on the whole, the game plan we had is the better one.
Yeah.
I really believe that the President and people out there, it's not going to be as good as it used to be.
You know?
Oh boy, I forgot that.
Yeah.
Give Nelson my best to tell him I greatly appreciated his remarks.
He was awfully good.
All out.
Great.
But he was pleased with the meeting last night.
Oh, you're right.
You're right.
I couldn't agree more.
That's right.
Right.
Oh, you shouldn't go.
No.
Well, good.
That's good.
Well, we can...
take a look at it in the morning, okay?
Good luck.
Have a good dinner.
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