Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Clifford M. Hardin and Earl L. Butz

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Mr. Ziegler, Mr. President.

Yes, sir.

How did they're handling this situation with regard to the Secretary of Agriculture?

Oh, I think that went very well.

I think it gave a good story to them.

Yes, sir.

I thought your announcement and the way you handled it was very good.

Well, we had to do it gracefully.

And actually, what I said was the total truth.

The firing stories are very unfair to Cliff.

Nobody's ever talked about it.

Actually, there aren't that many firing stories.

You can tell the boys straight out.

You can say, no, we'll tell you when you mislead him.

But on the firing, it's totally true.

Three months ago, he came in and says, I don't have any money.

I've got to do this.

I've got to take this job for my family.

And I don't want to do it if it's going to hurt the administration.

I said, okay.

This was right after the China announcement.

I said, fine.

I said, we'll do it, but I don't want you to.

And there was never any thought of firing him.

No, and I haven't seen that written anywhere.

Well, there was something, I think, but the Washington Post had a story to that effect.

I don't know, something.

But anyway, whatever it is, we knocked that in the head.

Sure.

And I think it was covered fine.

And I don't think there's, from what I've seen on the wires and the star and so forth, I have not seen any speculation going in that direction.

But in any event, I think your remarks and the way it was handled put to rest any of that.

Absolutely.

I was asked in my briefing whether or not it had anything to do with the corn prices.

You know, they had to make an effort, and I said in the President's remarks, I think we're quite clear.

Yeah, absolutely.

But I thought it was a good way to do it.

No, farm prices, on the other hand, Butch is going to work on farm prices.

Right, and he said that.

We also, we got in a good slug on government reorganization.

Yes, sir.

Did any of the bastards ask about a positive vote in the Senate, or they ignored that, I suppose?

Oh, on the foreign aid?

Yeah.

Well, I encouraged them to ask, and they did.

I guess you had to encourage them.

That was a hell of a good vote to send this amendment, I mean.

Absolutely.

And, you know, the Senate's turned totally around.

On foreign aid.

Cut the amount a little, but they turned around.

Well, I said they're making good progress now to restore the foreign aid to the level that the President feels is necessary.

I understand they went after you on Danny Shore this morning?

Oh, yes.

But for Christ's sakes...

You know, you know, the whole thing is so ridiculous.

I mean, we, Malik's office, hell, I don't know who the hell they're looking at, but they, you know, they have all sorts of things.

They've got some guy on the environmental council, you know, who's a, and that, and they, so they're, apparently CBS has been very interested in the environment.

They ran, I think they ran three or four, and the only reason they checked on this son of a bitch is that, which of course I didn't know, and I would have never proved him, but the point is, the reason they checked was that he's supposed to be an environmental specialist.

Right.

You know.

Well, I kept you 90,000 miles away from him.

I said, you weren't even involved.

I wasn't even aware.

I said, Malick was in the process of...

of considering people who would be considered and i said mr shore was evidently qualified and you might say that one of the reasons they were checking him is they had no file on him which is a pretty good thing to say too isn't it right oh well they better not push me on them or i'll just kick them in the teeth on it well i think if if they've asked you done very cold if they i just say you covered that yesterday right right yes sir i think this thing's going to pass away and very you know one day soon

Yeah, but what I meant is I'll just say, well, look, I think Zegers covered it very well.

I mean, there are just many, many people that are checked that I never hear about.

That's right.

But they're not being checked for other reasons.

I hit that here, and then I was at the Sigma Delta Chi today at a panel.

Oh, were you?

Yeah.

And I hit it again there.

What the hell?

Do they think we're so stupid to try to conduct an investigation of a goddamn reporter?

Now, if there's a leak, you know what I mean?

Right.

Relating to national security.

Or national security or something.

We then have to.

Then the FBI does look into it.

That isn't what they mean when it isn't that.

Christ Almighty, I mean, this is a, what was it?

He said something about the Catholic thing.

Christ sure has been against us for years.

Well, I said in the briefing here today, and I also said at the panel, I said, when a reporter is wrong, I'm going to say he's wrong.

And I said, when a reporter is wrong, we have an obligation to say he's wrong, and the president's going to say he's wrong.

I said, he was wrong on the Fletcher story.

He was wrong on the Catholic story.

I said, he was wrong on the Phase II story.

And I said, when reporters are wrong, we have a responsibility to put our case forward.

Very good.

So, yeah, we have it that way.

Yeah, yeah.

I think Mutz is going to be effective, you know.

He's a tough guy.

I think so, too.

The people here were impressed by him.

But you ought to hear him talk.

He's a great speech maker, you know.

He's great with those farm audiences.

Yeah, and he talks like a farmer, too.

Well, you've got to realize he was raised in Indiana.

That's right.

Just like my mother.

Then he farmed for a year after he got out of school and then went behind to teach school.

All in agriculture.

That's a hell of a record.

And he's a farmer, basically, even though he farmed for only a year.

This reorganization is good, too.

I followed up on that a little bit afterward.

It's the one thing that we just couldn't get wheeled.

I mean, the agriculture people would not buy, not have any department value.

Now the labor people say they want department value, but we're not going to give in on that because an agriculture doesn't quite fit.

The convention, I mean, as I pointed out, as you know, that we are on it, we're going to slim it down to those things that only affect the farmer.

Right.

And we're cutting off the foreign service and all the other crap.

So it'll be a thin one, but that way it just doesn't fit in anything else.

To concentrate on the problems of the agriculture.

Of the farmers alone.

Right, right.

Did you hit that in yours?

Yes, I said, you know, they said, could I get in details?

I said, no, I wasn't prepared to at this time, except what the president said was that the new agriculture department would not have the peripheral responsibilities, and this would allow the Department of Agriculture under Secretary Butts to concentrate on the problems of the farmers.

And so I think that's a good thing to hit.

That's right.

And if they say, why don't you have somebody concentrate on the problems of labor, that's done through the economic department.

That's all part of that.

I think the session up there was very good.

People came up afterwards, which doesn't happen often, said they thought it went well and they were impressed with Butts and they thought you handled, you know, they said you appeared to be very complimentary of Hardin and also very relaxed this afternoon.

I said, well,

president generally.

But they were impressed with the session, and I think it came over well.

They continue, I guess, to be disappointed that I wouldn't get into politics on the Chicago-New York swing.

Is that right?

Well, I think they would have liked to have the opening to say that you are now moving into that area, and they're going to be waiting for that.

And I think there's some disappointment from those who would like to write that, yes, sir.

But on the other hand, I don't think you'll get many questions on that tomorrow.

Oh, they're going to, in my view, they're going to stick to foreign policy for the most part.

Well,

There isn't much they can ask there, a little on foreign policy.

And I think they'll get into a little on the phase two crap, don't you think so?

Right, right.

And they'll get into a little on China.

Well, there's nothing to say about China.

No, but I think the foreign policy thing will weave out of the whole foreign policy area and into China and so forth.

Right.

And into phase two.

Okay.

Okay, sir.

Nixon phone call with Ziegler on Clifford M. Hardin and Earl L. Butz

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on November 11, 1971

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