On November 16, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Charles W. Colson talked on the telephone from 3:16 pm to 3:27 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 014-140 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
Hello.
Yes, sir, Mr. President.
Chuck, I've been doing a lot of thinking about this labor thing, and I have a feeling, I don't know whether all of them got a hold of you yet.
Yes, he did.
That I should not go.
I know that there are arguments for going and the rest, but I'll tell you what.
I think we have a situation now developing that is rather general in terms of, I mean, where the Senate and the House are pretty political and they kick us around and I turn the other cheek.
Now, Meany does it, and I understand all that.
And I don't mean to kick him at the point, but I just think that
that i think the country might not understand uh my just some no some going down there you know and trying to talk to these labor things in view of all that but he's been awfully rough oh he has no question he's been and i don't really think it's going to to mean all that much to go down it's it's also they're just i just terribly busy i just don't want to spend the time on it that's another good argument but well that's that's probably the best argument mr president i i think the
I gave Bob the other side of the case, so I don't know that you want me to... No, he's coming over pretty soon, but go ahead and tell me.
Well, I just think that you could score an enormous coup if you went in there and said what I've heard you say many times to labor leaders, and that is that I know you're against me.
I mean, I understand that we may have deep differences over domestic policy.
I understand that we may have very deep differences over wages and prices.
at price controls, and I understand this, and I understand that next year there may be deep partisan divisions, but I came here for one reason today, one reason alone, and that is to let you know that the Commander-in-Chief appreciates that when this country was facing one of its great trials, that the one institution that stood behind the country and the 200,000 Americans marched down Fifth Avenue to express their support when everybody else was caving,
That's why I'm here today.
And I'd make that as one point.
And my second point would be that, of course, we're asking for sacrifice.
But the sacrifice that we're asking people to make is on prices and wages and not on 300 casualties a week.
That we had so-called prosperity in 1968, but at the price of 300 boys a week dying.
I think that could be made.
The only problem on the foreign policy thing now, though, Chuck, is that
mean he has broken it off there too you know he's taken on the china thing the russia thing why don't i go to cuba so far you see what i mean oh yeah i can't quite say that you support me in the foreign field and not only rather you can go back into past history that's true but well you can talk about you can talk about vietnam which is which is after all uh see most of his members most of his
There's several arguments to this, Mr. President, and I know what you're talking about, that you don't want to appear to the country.
Well, I can't appear to be to the country.
Labor leaders are the lowest end of the totem pole.
Absolutely.
And everybody's really, you know, if I have to do that Hoffa thing, that's going to be a hell of a thing to do for that.
Well, the only point I would make to you, which I don't think you would look to the country like you were caving into labor by giving that kind of a speech.
Now, if you went down there and tried to sell them on your policies, or you went down there and appeared to be softlining it, or if you went down there and appeared to be trying to appease them, that would be very bad.
That would be disastrous.
But if you go down there and say, I know you oppose me, but there's one reason, there are two reasons I came.
And just go through those two points, which I've laid out for you to be true to.
I gave great prices, guys.
then I think you'd, and I think I know what would happen, that you'd have that whole place on their feet, because I've seen you turn some hard-boiled labor leaders into pretzels, and you would be talking right over their heads.
In other words, you would be, you wouldn't be talking to them.
You'd be saying it was your members, the dignity of work, it was your members who believe in this country, who believe in hard work, who went out there and marched to express their support.
And for that reason,
No matter what our partisan differences, I will always respect the working men.
I think you'd go right over the heads of these guys, as far as the TV that you get out of it.
Now, there are some enormous risks, and I realize that, the risk of...
But the one risk that I don't think there is is the appearance of caving in.
Well, yeah, I see.
It would be.
It would depend entirely on how you did it.
And I've seen you do this so many times that I know that you would...
you would pull that off.
Now, the other thing that you might have, Mr. President, is some kind of an effect substantively on what they ultimately do.
There's the other side of the coin you might not.
And you might not.
And you might go down there, and then they later on thumb their noses, and that isn't so good either.
No, that's right.
That's a risk.
But I think you would have some effect.
The reports, I've been getting a lot of reports out of there.
Yeah.
the mood is very good towards you and i i trust the people who are telling you this they're not they're people without an axe to grind uh that mean he is not getting a response when he takes you on that he's not getting them all up in in arms uh that i have over that the building trades leaders who of course you would appeal to by if you ever referred to the hard hats marching through new york you have them in your pocket they're telling me to cool it and
They don't want to upset this wage price thing.
They kind of like it.
And then the retail clerks who basically are not part of the militant group.
The one risk I see, and this is the one that's been worrying hell out of me, is that there are a couple of dissident union groups that Meany can't control.
And you might end up with 9,500 people standing on their feet applauding like hell.
because I think you bring them out of their tears.
And then 500 booing, and that could be the story.
That's right.
It sure would be.
Well, that's the risk.
That's right.
But I think as far as parents in the country, I'd see it a little differently.
Well, we'll take a look at it.
We'll take a look.
Well, it's a tough call.
I'm arguing one side to kind of be the devil's advocate.
Right, I know.
But I...
And it would be safer for me to say, well, don't do it.
But I do think there's an opportunity for a coup because I think you could pull it off.
And that would be basically well received.
Right, right.
In the country as well as there.
Right, right, right.
No, I don't... Incidentally, on the...
Even McCracken came in today and told me to show me the figures on the GNP, which shows basically 4% growth in the third quarter.
And I said, well, for Christ's sakes, how can these people in commerce be 30% off, 33.3% off?
They said their preliminary figures showed a 3% growth in the third quarter.
This shows a 4% growth in the third quarter.
God damn it, it really is something, isn't it?
It's incredible, Mr. President.
It really is.
So it shows this damned economy, and incidentally, this now makes the unemployment figures more credible, too.
That's right.
And interesting, I hit Paul on that article in the Wall Street Journal yesterday, and he said, well, he said, well, no, he said, that could be right.
He said, that's possible.
He said, if
He said, if it's true, that's all it'll take to start this thing rolling.
He said it'll be contagious.
Mark, it's taken a big jump up.
I heard you said it was starting to go up, yeah.
It was a real buying rally.
It was up nine points.
Is it?
It was down around noon, and it's...
When did the start go up?
Are these bargain hunters?
Bargain hunters is what the wire service is saying.
Sure.
That's what they'll call it.
Whenever it goes up, it's bargain hunters.
That's right.
When it goes down, it's confusion and uncertainty.
What's the volume?
Well, the volume's nothing still.
Yeah, I'm sorry, 12.
That's right.
Oh, that's better than 9.
Exactly.
But as we talked yesterday, I... That market's going to move.
You watch.
You watch.
Over a period of time, it's just bound to move because it's a good year coming up.
I just got Sindlinger's latest figures in it, too.
What did they show?
Biggest, the second biggest, I mean, the biggest week for the second week in a row.
It's now up to 127.9, I think.
But he's got it going up on the fastest...
And steady his curve.
This is consumer intentions.
Yes, sir.
Buying expectations.
And he really is bullish, isn't he?
Well, sure.
And this is what he's been saying to the business people.
Get off your ass.
You're missing the mood of the public.
He's got it now.
Let's see.
Every single week it has gone up.
It went up a point and a half.
No, it went up almost two points the week before and almost two points this week.
So it's up near 128, and he's saying it's out there in the marketplace if business knows how to get its confidence level back up.
I heard from Clark McGregor that our fellows were complaining again that they haven't had any support on the ADR.
God, we've had...
lobbyists all over that hill, but they... Have we?
I think what they do...
I don't know what the crisis is.
They aren't hitting the right people.
No, I told Clark what I did.
Well, that's part of it.
They don't go to our leadership.
They go to the people in doubt.
Because we tell them not to bother with the friends.
But the other thing is, I think these guys like to come down here and tell you that we're standing all alone, Mr. President.
We have no support, but we're doing it for you.
And I think they overplay themselves a bit on that.
But we've sent the troops back up this afternoon, and we've cranked up the telegrams.
We'll... Well, I think that one... Just keep on them, though.
I mean, tell these business people they've got to help us now.
They've got to get that tax bill through in the way we want it, too.
Mm-hmm.
Well, we are, and we've had a good... That's one of the areas where we've had a hell of a good lobbying effort.
That Citizens Committee has done a damn good job, so...
Good.
I think they'll feel it.
Good.
Okay.
Thank you, sir.