{"conversationCode":"014-154","tapeNumber":14,"conversationNumber":154,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-014-154","startDateTime":"1971-11-17T18:27:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1971-11-17T19:48:00.000Z","startDate":"17-Nov-1971","startTime":"1:27 PM","endDate":"17-Nov-1971","endTime":"2:48 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"estimated","participants":"Bull, Stephen B.; White House operator; Ehrlichman, John D.; Nixon, Richard M. (President);","description":"On November 17, 1971, Stephen B. Bull, White House operator, John D. Ehrlichman, and President Richard M. Nixon talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 1:27 pm and 2:48 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 014-154 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":2,"chronRelease":"Second Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"26-Oct-2000","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 14-154\n\nDate: November 17, 1971\nTime: Unknown between 1:27 pm and 2:48 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nStephen B. Bull talked with the White House operator.\n\n[See Conversation No. 293-6A]\n\n     Request for a call to John D. Ehrlichman\n         -The President\n\nBull talked with Ehrlichman at an unknown time.\n\n     Ehrlichman's situation\n\n          -The President\n\nThe President talked with Ehrlichman at an unknown time.\n\n     Richard B. Ogilvie\n          -White House efforts\n                -Charles H. Percy\n          -Desired amendment to House Resolution 1 [H. R. 1]\n          -Administration aid to Illinois\n          -Desired amendment to Tax Bill\n                -Federal subsidies to states\n                -Cost\n                -Wilbur D. Mills’ views\n                -Possible veto\n                -Possible White House deal with Percy\n                      -Russell B. Long's action on H. R. 1\n                -Provisions\n                      -Prospects for H. R. 1\n                -Possible veto\n                -Revenue-sharing\n                -Possible White House deal with Percy\n                      -Effect on H. R. 1\n                -Possible veto\n                -Percy's intentions\n                      -Governors\n                -Nelson A. Rockefeller's view\n                      -Revenue-sharing\n                      -Call to Ehrlichman\n                -Possible White House deal with Percy\n                      -Prospects for H. R. 1\n                            -Long\n                -Ronald W. Reagan's view","filename":["014-154.mp3"],"tapeStart":"04:45:27","tapeEnd":"04:54:28","participantsList":["Bull, Stephen B.","White House operator","Ehrlichman, John D.","Nixon, Richard M. (President)"],"prevCode":"014-153","nextCode":"014-155","transcript":[{"start":0.74,"end":21.75,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":21.77,"end":22.61,"text":"Coming right on, sir."},{"start":22.64,"end":26.02,"text":"Thank you."},{"start":26.04,"end":27.52,"text":"Is this the president's line here?"},{"start":28.08,"end":28.5,"text":"Hello?"},{"start":29,"end":30.06,"text":"John, Steve Bolt."},{"start":30.08,"end":31.96,"text":"Can you talk on the telephone to the president?"},{"start":32.14,"end":32.38,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":32.82,"end":34.86,"text":"Okay, let me ask him to pick up just one moment, please."},{"start":44.9,"end":45.17,"text":"Hello?"},{"start":45.3,"end":45.74,"text":"Yes, sir."},{"start":46.64,"end":47.44,"text":"Hi, John."},{"start":47.54,"end":56.77,"text":"I just need to let you know that we have been trying to help Ogilvy and that the price is just too high."},{"start":57.02,"end":57.82,"text":"I see."},{"start":57.84,"end":59.64,"text":"And we're going to have to cut them loose."},{"start":60.64,"end":64.22,"text":"We've been working very intensively at this with Percy and Ogilvy."},{"start":64.91,"end":68.59,"text":"Percy wants us to move H.R."},{"start":68.61,"end":74.38,"text":"1 back up either 20 or 25 percent closer."},{"start":74.44,"end":78.46,"text":"In other words, the first year cost of H.R."},{"start":78.56,"end":80.58,"text":"1 would be 20 or 25 percent higher."},{"start":80.6,"end":84.89,"text":"And he wants an administration commitment to support his amendment to H.R."},{"start":84.91,"end":85.93,"text":"1 to that effect."},{"start":86.6,"end":98.87,"text":"It's about a billion dollars as a price of not putting in his amendment to funnel a lot of early money to Illinois as an amendment to the tax bill."},{"start":99.26,"end":102.5,"text":"You mean he has an amendment to the tax bill?"},{"start":102.52,"end":104.58,"text":"Right, which he's holding over our heads."},{"start":105.3,"end":112.61,"text":"We've been trying to come up with money for Illinois on the sly, on the side, to keep him from putting this thing in."},{"start":113.87,"end":122.42,"text":"And we have found as much as Ogilvy said he wanted, but the ante keeps going up every time we get close."},{"start":122.44,"end":126.11,"text":"We've finally gotten to the point where we just can't go any higher."},{"start":126.09,"end":126.91,"text":"All right."},{"start":126.93,"end":128.95,"text":"And so... Are you going to give him that much or not?"},{"start":129.37,"end":138.89,"text":"Well, we won't give him anything under these conditions because if Percy puts the damn amendment in, we're going to need every nickel we can lay our hands on in case it passes."},{"start":139.83,"end":141.23,"text":"So what does the amendment do?"},{"start":141.33,"end":145.14,"text":"Is that the one that provides for a takeover of everything above 125%?"},{"start":145.3,"end":147.3,"text":"Yes, sir, and immediately."},{"start":148.06,"end":151.91,"text":"You see, we would be immediately subsidizing the states..."},{"start":152.4,"end":155.72,"text":"for their current welfare cost to the tune of 125%."},{"start":155.76,"end":161.44,"text":"And it's an open-ended thing because they control the eligibility."},{"start":162.67,"end":164.01,"text":"How much would it cost, his amendment?"},{"start":164.09,"end":167.75,"text":"Well, his amendment cost us about $2.8 billion, as near as we can figure."},{"start":168.07,"end":169.21,"text":"My God, is it going to pass?"},{"start":169.59,"end":175.8,"text":"Well, there's a lot of pressure up now because Ogilvy has gotten a lot of governors behind it."},{"start":175.82,"end":177.94,"text":"In other words, it's a substitute for revenue."},{"start":177.96,"end":180.69,"text":"Sure, and for welfare reform, perhaps."},{"start":181.15,"end":181.41,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":182.43,"end":187.66,"text":"Well, what position does the House take on it?"},{"start":187.7,"end":189.08,"text":"What about Mills and his group?"},{"start":189.1,"end":191.89,"text":"Well, the chances are Mills will not stand in the way of this."},{"start":192.57,"end":195.49,"text":"He would see it as the answer to his prayer, in a way."},{"start":195.67,"end":201.56,"text":"Well, the chances are then you aren't going to be able to defeat it, isn't that correct?"},{"start":201.6,"end":205.5,"text":"I think that's correct."},{"start":206.24,"end":208.19,"text":"We can't veto the tax bill, John."},{"start":208.71,"end":218.44,"text":"Well, then the alternative would be to make a commitment to Percy that we would support his amendment later if and when Long brings out H.R."},{"start":218.46,"end":218.74,"text":"1."},{"start":219.8,"end":224.27,"text":"And then behind the scenes, maybe we could screw him by just making sure it never came out."},{"start":225.65,"end":227.19,"text":"What is his amendment, in effect?"},{"start":227.21,"end":231.72,"text":"Well, his amendment is to start the benefits under H.R."},{"start":231.84,"end":232.42,"text":"1 sooner."},{"start":232.72,"end":243.33,"text":"In other words, he'd go up the same kind of a thing, 120 or 125 percent of current costs immediately, pending the effective date of H.R."},{"start":243.35,"end":243.61,"text":"1."},{"start":243.79,"end":244.29,"text":"Yeah, but H.R."},{"start":244.31,"end":245.23,"text":"1 would have to pass."},{"start":245.33,"end":245.81,"text":"That's right."},{"start":246.21,"end":246.65,"text":"That's right."},{"start":248.89,"end":250.33,"text":"I would not be concerned about that."},{"start":250.73,"end":251.05,"text":"Okay."},{"start":251.49,"end":253.44,"text":"On the ground that, frankly, I don't think H.R."},{"start":253.46,"end":254.36,"text":"1 is going to..."},{"start":255.32,"end":255.8,"text":"Make it."},{"start":256.32,"end":256.8,"text":"Going to make it."},{"start":258.81,"end":261.37,"text":"Well, all right, then why don't we play that game?"},{"start":261.39,"end":261.57,"text":"Fine."},{"start":261.71,"end":267.67,"text":"I mean, I think looking at it very realistically, I don't think you're going to be able to, I mean, if"},{"start":268.68,"end":273.47,"text":"If this amendment passes, I mean, I cannot be in a position, John, of vetoing the tax bill."},{"start":273.49,"end":273.79,"text":"I see."},{"start":274.17,"end":275.89,"text":"Because everything else is in it."},{"start":275.91,"end":279.28,"text":"Is that what the recommendation would be, to veto it if the amendment's in it?"},{"start":279.3,"end":285.55,"text":"No, I think there's a lot of loose talk to that effect that's bouncing around because it's getting higher and higher."},{"start":286.25,"end":287.27,"text":"They lost revenues."},{"start":287.67,"end":288.43,"text":"Yes, I understand."},{"start":289.31,"end":293.98,"text":"But you and I know that it may be one of those things where we have to grin and bear it."},{"start":294,"end":294.5,"text":"I understand."},{"start":294.9,"end":296.44,"text":"With the idea that maybe it's..."},{"start":296.85,"end":297.43,"text":"Let's face it."},{"start":297.75,"end":302.99,"text":"It may be the way we get the stimulus that we were going to get through revenue sharing."},{"start":303.01,"end":303.38,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":303.39,"end":303.62,"text":"Right?"},{"start":303.68,"end":304.98,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":305,"end":307.32,"text":"And it's out there in the consumer's pocket."},{"start":307.92,"end":309.82,"text":"And this is down the tube."},{"start":310.64,"end":313.33,"text":"Oh, I think, well, so you come down to this."},{"start":314.17,"end":316.55,"text":"But what does it gain then to commit this to Percy?"},{"start":317.15,"end":318.18,"text":"He'll give up on his amendment?"},{"start":318.2,"end":318.66,"text":"That's right."},{"start":319.92,"end":325.05,"text":"And he says he's got his co-sponsors lined up to join him."},{"start":325.07,"end":325.21,"text":"Mm-hmm."},{"start":325.23,"end":325.37,"text":"Mm-hmm."},{"start":326,"end":329.17,"text":"But then what happens if he gives up on the amendment?"},{"start":329.19,"end":335.44,"text":"That all that we do by giving up by going with Percy is to move up the effective date of H.R."},{"start":335.46,"end":336.18,"text":"1 in effect?"},{"start":336.2,"end":336.66,"text":"In effect."},{"start":337.84,"end":339.04,"text":"We don't change any principles?"},{"start":339.3,"end":339.48,"text":"No."},{"start":340.52,"end":340.86,"text":"I'd do it."},{"start":341.3,"end":341.78,"text":"Okay."},{"start":341.8,"end":342.12,"text":"Okay."},{"start":342.52,"end":342.7,"text":"Good."},{"start":342.72,"end":343.12,"text":"Let's try."},{"start":343.19,"end":343.97,"text":"Don't you think so?"},{"start":344.15,"end":346.71,"text":"Well, as we talk it out, I can see that."},{"start":347.33,"end":347.53,"text":"Right."},{"start":347.67,"end":349.75,"text":"I think that's where we are."},{"start":349.85,"end":351.03,"text":"Let's be quite realistic."},{"start":352.04,"end":353.79,"text":"We cannot veto the tax bill."},{"start":354.11,"end":360.25,"text":"I mean, I just can't do that because of other things, the auto exercises and the investment tax credit."},{"start":360.27,"end":361.49,"text":"Those two things are in it, right?"},{"start":361.67,"end":361.91,"text":"Right."},{"start":362.19,"end":367.72,"text":"Now, with those two things in it, even with all this crap that's in it, we probably aren't going to be able to veto it."},{"start":367.74,"end":368.34,"text":"Yeah, I see that."},{"start":368.64,"end":375.43,"text":"Under those circumstances, I think we ought to get out a terrible provision."},{"start":375.55,"end":376.23,"text":"I mean..."},{"start":376.58,"end":378.76,"text":"I mean, this thing would be terrible."},{"start":378.94,"end":380.91,"text":"Yeah, it would be a one-year raid on the Treasury."},{"start":380.95,"end":384.61,"text":"One-year raid on the Treasury and the rest."},{"start":384.63,"end":393.99,"text":"And looking at it from Ogilvy's standpoint, of course, do you really believe Percy means what he says, that he would do that?"},{"start":394,"end":395.19,"text":"I think he would."},{"start":395.29,"end":402.92,"text":"I think he's gotten himself into an impossible situation because he's held himself out to... To be responsible in all the rest."},{"start":402.94,"end":404.14,"text":"Yeah, yeah."},{"start":404.16,"end":404.68,"text":"And now..."},{"start":405.27,"end":409.59,"text":"Well, now I think he feels that his bluff's being called, and he's got to go forward with this thing."},{"start":411.01,"end":415.94,"text":"See, he's got Ogilvy looking down his throat, and Ogilvy's got 40 governors behind him."},{"start":417.48,"end":417.72,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":418.02,"end":424.31,"text":"And I have no doubt but what Percy is hearing from every governor in the United States except Rockefeller, and Rockefeller's told him to go to hell."},{"start":424.39,"end":425.25,"text":"It's a bad idea."},{"start":426.03,"end":426.75,"text":"Why does he say that?"},{"start":427.05,"end":429.81,"text":"Well, because he can see it'll take all the steam out of revenue sharing."},{"start":430.68,"end":431.04,"text":"Is that it?"},{"start":431.3,"end":431.7,"text":"Sure."},{"start":432.1,"end":433.52,"text":"He called me this morning to tell me this."},{"start":433.56,"end":433.82,"text":"I see this."},{"start":434.34,"end":435.82,"text":"So he's not for Percy's Amendment?"},{"start":435.84,"end":436,"text":"No."},{"start":437.71,"end":439.71,"text":"He's taking a much more long-headed view."},{"start":439.73,"end":441.13,"text":"How would Rockefeller tell you?"},{"start":441.29,"end":442.66,"text":"Well, of course, so do I."},{"start":442.68,"end":444.36,"text":"This goddamn thing is the wrong way to do it."},{"start":444.38,"end":444.58,"text":"Sure."},{"start":445.64,"end":449.57,"text":"On the other hand, so therefore we ought to try to beat the amendment."},{"start":449.83,"end":451.9,"text":"and pay what price we have to pay, don't you think?"},{"start":452.18,"end":457.74,"text":"Well, if we go to war on the amendment, we'll probably get rolled."},{"start":457.76,"end":460.31,"text":"Even with Percy changing?"},{"start":460.75,"end":464.31,"text":"Oh, if Percy changes, there won't be an amendment."},{"start":464.33,"end":464.89,"text":"That's what I mean."},{"start":464.93,"end":465.37,"text":"That's right."},{"start":465.77,"end":466.15,"text":"That's right."},{"start":466.17,"end":466.93,"text":"We ought to head it off."},{"start":467.09,"end":468.55,"text":"That's what I mean by beating it."},{"start":468.83,"end":471.66,"text":"Pay what price we need to not to have an amendment."},{"start":471.74,"end":473.04,"text":"I read you."},{"start":473.06,"end":475.72,"text":"Because the alternative is to have the amendment."},{"start":476.8,"end":479.61,"text":"And then what's..."},{"start":480.02,"end":483.79,"text":"and then pay the price, and then let's see what happens to HR1."},{"start":483.89,"end":485.41,"text":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"start":485.43,"end":486.27,"text":"Nothing may happen to it."},{"start":486.45,"end":486.73,"text":"Okay."},{"start":487.7,"end":488.94,"text":"Or do we feel something may?"},{"start":490.2,"end":491.38,"text":"Well, I don't know."},{"start":491.4,"end":496.41,"text":"Long is playing a very mysterious game on this, and nobody really knows where he is."},{"start":496.81,"end":502.72,"text":"Well, if it happens, it happens, and just moving it up some, it's just not going to make something that's already bad a little worse."},{"start":502.78,"end":504.95,"text":"Yeah, it'll be a very bad bird in the hand."},{"start":505.63,"end":505.73,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":506.4,"end":508.04,"text":"Okay, well, I'll..."},{"start":508.12,"end":513.18,"text":"But isn't it worse, John, to confront this thing of having what you call this one-time rate on the Treasury?"},{"start":513.22,"end":513.48,"text":"Yes."},{"start":513.9,"end":514.72,"text":"Yeah, it's very..."},{"start":514.74,"end":515.74,"text":"Which is bad business."},{"start":515.8,"end":517.39,"text":"It isn't helpful."},{"start":517.77,"end":518.51,"text":"It's intolerable."},{"start":518.61,"end":521.34,"text":"It's intolerable in terms of the revenue-sharing thing and..."},{"start":521.77,"end":524.52,"text":"It just bails out governors and so forth."},{"start":524.8,"end":525.26,"text":"Do you think so?"},{"start":525.3,"end":525.5,"text":"Right."},{"start":525.92,"end":526.98,"text":"That's my feeling."},{"start":527.02,"end":527.48,"text":"All right, sir."},{"start":527.68,"end":528.5,"text":"Well, that's where we'll go."},{"start":528.76,"end":529.76,"text":"Reagan's against it, too."},{"start":530.1,"end":530.62,"text":"Oh, is that so?"},{"start":530.9,"end":532.02,"text":"Yeah, he said he was against it."},{"start":532.09,"end":532.93,"text":"That's interesting."},{"start":533.67,"end":535.73,"text":"Mainly because he's open-ended, as he puts it."},{"start":536.27,"end":537.33,"text":"That's his argument."},{"start":537.55,"end":538.69,"text":"He's against it on principle."},{"start":538.77,"end":540.05,"text":"Oh, he's right on it."},{"start":540.08,"end":540.34,"text":"Okay."},{"start":540.42,"end":541.32,"text":"All right, thank you."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and John Ehrlichman discuss a political strategy to neutralize a proposed amendment to the Tax Bill by Senator Charles Percy, which would provide federal subsidies to states for welfare costs. Fearing the amendment’s $2.8 billion price tag and its potential to undermine administration revenue-sharing goals, the pair decides to offer a political concession to Percy—an agreement to support his initiative later if H.R. 1 moves forward—to prevent the amendment from being introduced. They agree that a veto of the tax bill is not a viable option due to other critical provisions like the investment tax credit and auto excise reductions, ultimately opting to make a deal to avoid the fiscal impact of the amendment.","topics":["H.R. 1","Tax Bill","Charles Percy","Welfare Reform","Revenue Sharing","Richard Ogilvie","Federal Subsidies"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T00:10:40.559Z"},"topicSlugs":["h-r-1","tax-bill","charles-percy","welfare-reform","revenue-sharing","richard-ogilvie","federal-subsidies"],"audioDurationSec":542,"audioFiles":[{"file":"014-154.mp3","bytes":17356752,"durationSec":542.28,"bitrate":256053,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:24.618Z","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/014-154.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/014-154","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/14/conversation-014-154","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}