Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 15 › Conversation 015-004

Nixon phone call with Ehrlichman on Welfare reform and Charles H. Percy

Wednesday, November 17, 1971 · 5:23 PM–5:25 PM ET · White House Telephone · 3 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); White House operator; Ehrlichman, John D.Conversation015-004 on Tape 15 (tape position 00:00:55–00:03:51)StartWednesday, November 17, 1971 at 5:23 PMEndWednesday, November 17, 1971 at 5:25 PMRecording deviceWhite House TelephoneSourceNixon Library record for 015-004 ↗

AI Summary

President Nixon and John Ehrlichman discuss the successful negotiation of a memorandum of understanding with Senator Charles Percy regarding welfare reform legislation. The administration agrees to support an amendment to avoid a broader legislative defeat, while maintaining that this position does not necessitate including the program in the federal budget. They also address the political motivations of Governors Ronald Reagan and Nelson Rockefeller, and finalize plans to provide financial assistance to Governor Richard Ogilvie by shifting welfare costs into the current fiscal year.

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Transcript (AI-generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.

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Hello.
Yes, sir.
Hi, John.
How are you getting along on that Percy matter now?
Well, Clark closed the deal.
Was he able to close it all right?
Right.
And I've been tied up this afternoon.
Clark sat with him, and they pretty well wrote up a little memorandum of understanding on it.
Now, the understanding, of course...
does not mean, in my opinion, that we put this in the budget necessarily.
That's correct.
Don't you agree?
Yes, sir.
Because we can still go forward with our... Well, that's the only thing that concerned me after I talked to you, that we having...
I don't want Percy to say that we have changed one of our major things of postponing welfare reform because of the need to implement it and so forth.
No, I think we can take the position that it's just too iffy, that it's a...
That it's something that we've agreed to support that we are not introducing.
And we're simply going to abide the outcome.
I get it.
Good.
In other words, you're supporting an amendment.
Good deal.
That's good.
Well, I think it's the less of two bad choices.
And it postpones and time's on our side.
Yeah.
Well, it really gets down to the fact that there's a chance of beating one and damn little chance of beating the other, as I understood.
That's correct.
Because even though we have both governors, the big governors, Gregg and Rockefeller on our side, each for different reasons.
One for principle and the other, well, both for principle.
Very much.
Rockefeller just believes that this sinks revenue sharing, and it does.
Right.
Isn't that his argument?
That's his argument.
Well, Reagan's argument is not that.
Reagan's argument is that it's going to mean an escalation of welfare costs.
And he's dead right about that.
It puts it on the top.
God damn that Percy for coming up with such a horrible thing.
Well, I suppose it's because of trying to help Ogilvy, huh?
Well, yes.
And then he's up this time.
Yep.
Yep.
I must say, though, that on the Ogilvy thing, will you now go ahead and try to help him with this?
We are going to help him.
All right.
I'd give him his nickels and dimes.
Well, the way we do it actually works very much to our advantage because it moves some welfare costs into fiscal 72.
I see.
And we'll pile them up in this fiscal year.
I get it.
Which is pretty well busted anyway, and take some of the load off for next year.
And that's what you're doing with him?
Right.
It helps his cash flow problem about $50 million worth.
My God, that's a hell of a help.
Sure is.
What the hell is he screaming about?
Well, he's not screaming now, you see.
No, he isn't.
It's our senator friend who took the bite out of us.
I see.
But Ogilvy feels pretty good, he should.
Oh, he feels fine.
Very great.
Yeah, because he's going to be able to survive.
Sure.
Okay, John, thank you.
All right.

NARA Description

On November 17, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, White House operator, and John D. Ehrlichman talked on the telephone from 5:23 pm to 5:25 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 015-004 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid

Conversation No. 15-4

Date: November 17, 1971
Time: 5:23 pm - 5:25 pm
Location: White House Telephone

The President talked with the White House operator.

     John D. Ehrlichman

The President talked with Ehrlichman.

[See also Conversation No. 293-15]

     Welfare reform legislation
          -Charles H. Percy
                -Clark MacGregor
                     -Memorandum of understanding
                           -Budget
                           -Welfare reform
          -Amendment
          -Ronald W. Reagan
                -Nelson A. Rockefeller
                     -Revenue-sharing
          -Reagan
                -Welfare
          -Percy
                -Richard B. Ogilvie
                     -Government assistance
                     -Welfare costs

Also recorded on November 17, 1971

  • 015-003 4:00 PM · 4 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 4:00 pm and 5:23 pm.
  • 293-010 4:00 PM · 29 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 4:00 pm and 5:23 pm.
  • 293-015 5:23 PM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 5:23 pm to 5:25 pm.
  • 293-016 5:25 PM · 24 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 5:25 pm and 5:44 pm.
  • 293-017 5:25 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 5:25 pm and 5:44 pm.
  • 293-018 5:25 PM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 5:25 pm and 5:44 pm.
  • 293-019 5:25 PM · 54 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 5:25 pm and 5:44 pm.
  • 015-005 5:44 PM · 7 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 5:44 pm and 7:14 pm.

All 66 conversations from November 17, 1971 →

Cite this conversation

Conversation 015-004, November 17, 1971. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/015-004 (accessed October 12, 2026).