{"conversationCode":"015-074","tapeNumber":15,"conversationNumber":74,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-015-074","startDateTime":"1971-11-21T23:37:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1971-11-21T23:50:00.000Z","startDate":"21-Nov-1971","startTime":"6:37 PM","endDate":"21-Nov-1971","endTime":"6:50 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"certain","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); White House operator; Graham, William F. (\"Billy\");","description":"On November 21, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, White House operator, and William F. (\"Billy\") Graham talked on the telephone from 6:37 pm to 6:50 pm. The White House Telephone taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 015-074 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"WHT","recordingDevice":"White House Telephone","latitudeEstimated":38.89767,"longitudeEstimated":-77.03655,"chronCode":2,"chronRelease":"Second Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"26-Oct-2000","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 15-74\n\nDate: November 21, 1971\nTime: 6:37 pm - 6:50 pm\nLocation: White House Telephone\n\nThe President talked with the White House operator.\n\n     William F. (“Billy”) Graham\n\nThe President talked with Graham.\n\n     Graham's location\n\n     The President's speech to American Federation of Labor-Congress of Industrial\n           Organization [AFL-CIO] convention\n          -L. Nelson Bell's views\n          -George Meany\n               -Quote\n          -[Maurice] Harold MacMillan\n               -Book\n                      -Winston S. Churchill quote\n\n     The President's schedule\n          -California\n                -Eisenhower Medical Center\n\n     Graham's schedule\n          -Eisenhower Center event\n                -Mamie G.D. Eisenhower invitation\n          -Conference at Greenbriar\n          -Trips to Africa and Asia\n                -President and Madam Chiang Kai-Shek\n\f              -Briefing\n                    -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman and Henry A. Kissinger\n              -Tokyo and Manila\n              -University of Taipei visit\n                    -Founder\n                          -Chiang\n                          -Support\n                    -Bell's remarks\n              -Thelma C. (“Pat”) Nixon\n         -Caneel Bay\n\n    The President's schedule\n         -Meetings with foreign leaders\n               -Edward R.G. Heath\n               -Georges J.R. Pompidou\n         -State of the Union\n         -Latin American event\n         -People’s Republic of China [PRC]\n\n    Graham's schedule\n         -Meeting with Sir Alexander F. Douglas-Home\n         -Meeting with Lee Kuan Yew\n              -Views on US\n\n    John B. Connally press conference\n         -Cabinet\n         -Anthony P. Lysberg, Lord Barber\n\n    -Great Britain\n         -Pornography\n               -Heathrow Airport\n               -Greenwich Village in New York City\n         -Religious revivals\n               -London\n               -Malcolm Muggeridge\n               -Compared to Berlin\n\n    US outlook\n        -Vietnam war\n              -Unknown person's speech in Charlotte, North Carolina\n              -Democrats\n              -Upcoming election\n\n    Economy\n        -Retail sales figures\n             -Connally\n             -Congress\n                    -Tax Bill\n\n*****************************************************************\n\f[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 6/20/2019.\nSegment cleared for release.]\n[Personal Returnable]\n[015-074-w005]\n[Duration: 26s]\n\n       Democratic presidential campaigns\n            -Money available to campaigns\n            -Vance Hartke\n                     -Potential presidential candidate\n                     -The President’s opinion\n\n*****************************************************************\n\n     Graham's schedule\n          -Trips to Africa and Asia\n                -Briefing\n                      -Haldeman\n\n     Ruth McC. Graham","filename":["015-074.mp3"],"tapeStart":"02:01:25","tapeEnd":"02:14:47","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","White House operator","Graham, William F. (\"Billy\")"],"prevCode":"015-073","nextCode":"015-075","transcript":[{"start":0.45,"end":3.8,"text":"Hello."},{"start":3.82,"end":4.14,"text":"Hello."},{"start":4.74,"end":5.54,"text":"Hi, Billy, how are you?"},{"start":6.76,"end":6.9,"text":"Fine."},{"start":7.06,"end":8.52,"text":"Where are you, in North Carolina?"},{"start":10.01,"end":10.73,"text":"Right, right."},{"start":15.29,"end":29.65,"text":"Oh, well, that was one of those things where you had to kick the old man on."},{"start":29.67,"end":29.97,"text":"Ha, ha, ha, ha."},{"start":30.2,"end":33.05,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":39.23,"end":41.24,"text":"And told them what you were going to do."},{"start":41.26,"end":41.58,"text":"Yeah, yeah."},{"start":41.6,"end":43.6,"text":"And I think I ran into him, came out way on top of that team."},{"start":43.62,"end":47.21,"text":"Well, it's, I think, I really think that the people really don't want to see any labor leader or anybody else go that far, you know, the way he did."},{"start":47.23,"end":47.69,"text":"You had to take him on."},{"start":47.71,"end":49.75,"text":"Well, you know, there's a new book published by Harold MacMillan, another former prime minister."},{"start":49.77,"end":54.92,"text":"Oh, yeah?"},{"start":54.94,"end":58.42,"text":"And that's what he spoke to Churchill, he said."},{"start":61.2,"end":81.33,"text":"If you don't do what's unpopular, they don't believe you're in earnings."},{"start":81.35,"end":82.07,"text":"That's what Churchill told McMillan."},{"start":82.09,"end":82.75,"text":"If you don't do what's unpopular?"},{"start":82.77,"end":84.21,"text":"If you don't do what's unpopular, they don't believe you're in earnings."},{"start":84.23,"end":84.73,"text":"That's a very good point."},{"start":84.75,"end":86.01,"text":"And you've shown a lot of courage in every issue that comes up."},{"start":90.75,"end":102.07,"text":"Well, that's important."},{"start":102.15,"end":104.67,"text":"I'm just fine, just fine."},{"start":105.05,"end":114.65,"text":"I'm going out to California for that Eisenhower Center thing over the weekend, so I have to be there Thanksgiving and then"},{"start":115.02,"end":136.97,"text":"We'll have a very busy month of December as usual with various visitors and so forth."},{"start":136.99,"end":137.63,"text":"Yeah, that's far more important."},{"start":137.65,"end":138.17,"text":"That's far more important."},{"start":141.73,"end":142.61,"text":"Very good."},{"start":142.63,"end":153.34,"text":"Very good."},{"start":153.36,"end":154.83,"text":"Sure."},{"start":154.99,"end":155.27,"text":"Set it right."},{"start":155.29,"end":155.39,"text":"Sure."},{"start":155.41,"end":156.71,"text":"Good."},{"start":156.73,"end":156.83,"text":"Good."},{"start":156.85,"end":165,"text":"Now, you're going to Africa, aren't you?"},{"start":165.02,"end":165.32,"text":"Good."},{"start":165.34,"end":165.46,"text":"Good."},{"start":165.48,"end":165.92,"text":"Right."},{"start":165.94,"end":166.1,"text":"Right."},{"start":166.12,"end":166.22,"text":"Good."},{"start":175.14,"end":177.67,"text":"Good."},{"start":177.69,"end":177.79,"text":"Good."},{"start":177.81,"end":178.17,"text":"Right."},{"start":178.19,"end":179.11,"text":"When will you go there?"},{"start":179.13,"end":179.93,"text":"When will you be there?"},{"start":183.5,"end":191.89,"text":"The 8th of December."},{"start":191.91,"end":192.39,"text":"The 8th of December."},{"start":192.41,"end":192.53,"text":"Right."},{"start":192.55,"end":194.28,"text":"Right."},{"start":194.29,"end":195.04,"text":"We'll do it."},{"start":195.06,"end":195.24,"text":"Oh, yeah."},{"start":195.26,"end":195.38,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":195.4,"end":195.5,"text":"Sure."},{"start":196.64,"end":223.47,"text":"I'll tell you, I'll give you a good paper, you know what I mean, just a brief one about the various points that may be raised that you might want to have some information on."},{"start":223.49,"end":223.93,"text":"I know they are."},{"start":225.89,"end":229.91,"text":"Right."},{"start":229.93,"end":241.08,"text":"Tell me this, where else will you go on the trip?"},{"start":241.22,"end":250.51,"text":"I won't go anywhere, but I'll probably cover my trip with a couple of beaches."},{"start":250.53,"end":250.66,"text":"Right."},{"start":250.68,"end":250.79,"text":"I see."},{"start":250.81,"end":251.84,"text":"Like you'll go to some place like Tokyo or Manila?"},{"start":251.86,"end":251.96,"text":"Good."},{"start":251.98,"end":252.08,"text":"Good."},{"start":252.1,"end":252.2,"text":"Good."},{"start":253.12,"end":281.23,"text":"That's just great."},{"start":281.25,"end":281.35,"text":"Good."},{"start":281.37,"end":281.49,"text":"Good."},{"start":281.51,"end":281.61,"text":"Good."},{"start":281.63,"end":281.73,"text":"Good."},{"start":281.75,"end":281.95,"text":"Very good."},{"start":284.8,"end":290.06,"text":"Sure, and you can tell him what your father-in-law thinks, too, you know."},{"start":290.08,"end":291.23,"text":"Well, that's right."},{"start":291.82,"end":292.55,"text":"That's what I'm going to do."},{"start":292.57,"end":292.97,"text":"Right, right, right."},{"start":292.99,"end":294.73,"text":"Well, tell me, then you go, then you'll come back here."},{"start":294.75,"end":304.38,"text":"I'm coming back to Princeton, and I'm going to meet your wife and father-in-law."},{"start":304.4,"end":304.5,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":304.52,"end":305.88,"text":"And I'm going down to New York Bay, where you were last week."},{"start":305.9,"end":307.76,"text":"That's great."},{"start":307.78,"end":308.56,"text":"Are you going to be at that same place?"},{"start":308.58,"end":309.27,"text":"I'm going to be at the same place."},{"start":309.29,"end":311.41,"text":"We go there every year."},{"start":311.43,"end":311.71,"text":"Do you really?"},{"start":311.73,"end":312.59,"text":"Yeah, I've been going for about nine years."},{"start":312.61,"end":313.81,"text":"But it must be nice at that time of year, too."},{"start":313.83,"end":314.11,"text":"Oh, it's nice."},{"start":315.9,"end":323.89,"text":"And you take two weeks there."},{"start":324.39,"end":335.53,"text":"I take two weeks every year."},{"start":335.55,"end":335.89,"text":"Well, I get that."},{"start":335.91,"end":338.13,"text":"December's going to be a very busy month for me because I have to do solo foreign things, you know what I mean?"},{"start":338.15,"end":339.51,"text":"People are coming in, the British and the French and the rest."},{"start":339.53,"end":340.54,"text":"We're not going to announce it until next week."},{"start":340.56,"end":342.64,"text":"But I go to meet with people like Heath and Pompidou and the rest."},{"start":342.66,"end":343.44,"text":"And then the latter part of, of course,"},{"start":343.77,"end":354.58,"text":"The first of January, that January is taken up in the State of the Union and all that stuff."},{"start":354.6,"end":361.91,"text":"And then after that, I have to do something in Latin America."},{"start":361.93,"end":362.31,"text":"So that'll be busy."},{"start":362.33,"end":363.93,"text":"And then I have to go right into the preparation for China in February, you see."},{"start":363.95,"end":364.54,"text":"I spent three hours with LSU."},{"start":364.56,"end":364.65,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":364.68,"end":365.6,"text":"He's a great boss."},{"start":372.7,"end":384.17,"text":"Yes, oh yes."},{"start":399.43,"end":399.87,"text":"Where is that, London?"},{"start":399.89,"end":399.99,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":400.01,"end":400.13,"text":"Right."},{"start":400.15,"end":400.31,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":400.33,"end":400.43,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":401.72,"end":404.99,"text":"Sure, sure."},{"start":405.01,"end":412.56,"text":"Well, these are times, you know, when we've had to do some hard things in the international front."},{"start":412.58,"end":419.13,"text":"In fact, I'm going to have Connolly do a press conference tomorrow at 12 o'clock."},{"start":419.15,"end":423.62,"text":"We don't want to use him too much, but he's really the only effective big gun we've got."},{"start":423.64,"end":425.4,"text":"You know what I mean?"},{"start":425.77,"end":444.69,"text":"the other people in the cabinet are all very responsible people, but Conley really gets across, don't you think so?"},{"start":444.71,"end":444.91,"text":"Yes, yeah."},{"start":449.31,"end":453.82,"text":"He said that?"},{"start":453.84,"end":453.94,"text":"Good."},{"start":453.96,"end":455.62,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":455.64,"end":455.76,"text":"Right."},{"start":456.16,"end":464.25,"text":"Right."},{"start":464.27,"end":464.37,"text":"Sure."},{"start":464.39,"end":464.83,"text":"Well, isn't that good?"},{"start":464.85,"end":464.95,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":464.97,"end":465.59,"text":"He's one of the best men, too."},{"start":465.61,"end":466.3,"text":"Well, I'll tell you that."},{"start":466.31,"end":474.63,"text":"How are the British getting along?"},{"start":474.65,"end":477.87,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":477.89,"end":477.99,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":478.01,"end":479.99,"text":"They really are having, still having a real problem, huh?"},{"start":484.33,"end":489.96,"text":"Well, and they've just got to win."},{"start":490.16,"end":494.3,"text":"That's all there is to it."},{"start":494.48,"end":503.08,"text":"Well, they've got to go through their tough time, too, but I think they're going to make it somewhere."},{"start":503.1,"end":503.42,"text":"I don't know."},{"start":503.62,"end":508.9,"text":"Fortunately, they've got four more years to go, and they just take those hard decisions and hope they can win."},{"start":508.93,"end":511.87,"text":"But the country, you have still a feeling that it has a really moral malaise in England."},{"start":516.05,"end":537.1,"text":"Yeah, yeah."},{"start":537.12,"end":537.38,"text":"Good heavens."},{"start":537.4,"end":538.33,"text":"This is in England, isn't that terrible?"},{"start":538.35,"end":538.4,"text":"No."},{"start":538.42,"end":543.95,"text":"Yeah, down in Greenwich Village."},{"start":543.97,"end":544.09,"text":"Right."},{"start":544.11,"end":544.31,"text":"All right."},{"start":544.33,"end":545,"text":"Well, do you think they could..."},{"start":545.23,"end":548.83,"text":"I don't suppose I think they can do anything about it."},{"start":548.89,"end":568.55,"text":"Probably they've gone too far."},{"start":568.57,"end":568.67,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":568.81,"end":568.97,"text":"Really?"},{"start":568.99,"end":569.09,"text":"Good."},{"start":569.23,"end":573.19,"text":"Oh, yeah, I've read... Yeah, I've read his stuff."},{"start":574,"end":602.15,"text":"He really, really writes beautifully."},{"start":602.17,"end":602.35,"text":"Oh, yeah."},{"start":602.37,"end":603.53,"text":"Oh, I'll tell you."},{"start":603.55,"end":603.77,"text":"Well, it..."},{"start":605.66,"end":607.96,"text":"There may be something going on here."},{"start":608.4,"end":629.16,"text":"Well, you even take this country, with all the things that we all see wrong, we've got to realize, I was just thinking compared to what it was, oh, three, well, four years ago, actually, when I was campaigning."},{"start":629.18,"end":630.3,"text":"But the situation has really very substantially changed."},{"start":630.32,"end":634.57,"text":"I mean, you've still got a lot of problems, but when we think of what was happening in the cities and the colleges and universities and so forth and so on,"},{"start":635,"end":659.33,"text":"at least there's been a gradual change, not as much as we would like, but something is a little better than it was."},{"start":659.35,"end":659.75,"text":"And Charlotte, yeah."},{"start":661.19,"end":661.29,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":661.31,"end":661.41,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":664.57,"end":664.67,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":664.79,"end":667.79,"text":"Yeah."},{"start":667.81,"end":669.63,"text":"Now they're trying to sabotage our efforts to get out."},{"start":669.95,"end":671.41,"text":"But we're going to make that."},{"start":671.43,"end":673.56,"text":"Let me say, there's one thing you can be sure of."},{"start":673.58,"end":676.58,"text":"The war will not be an issue next year."},{"start":676.6,"end":683.27,"text":"It'll take a little time, but, you know, we've got to do it the right way, and we're moving along very fast."},{"start":683.29,"end":689.77,"text":"The economy, I would say that the month of December will be, I think, a very good month."},{"start":689.79,"end":691.22,"text":"And the retail sales, I think that's going to be the break point there."},{"start":691.92,"end":693.5,"text":"But nobody can tell."},{"start":693.52,"end":707.54,"text":"Connolly and I have the same view, though."},{"start":707.56,"end":710.13,"text":"We have a view that it's just one of those things where the movement is coming along, and we would like to have a little faster."},{"start":710.15,"end":711.47,"text":"We're not getting the cooperation we would like from the Congress."},{"start":711.49,"end":713.81,"text":"They're loading our tax bill up with a lot of things that should be in it, which will not be good for you, Connolly."},{"start":720.37,"end":721.97,"text":"What do you think of that?"},{"start":725.65,"end":726.96,"text":"If we start doing that, then we..."},{"start":757.97,"end":764.78,"text":"Well, we're going to have to... Well, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it."},{"start":764.8,"end":775.96,"text":"And I know you're going to have a great trip to Africa."},{"start":775.98,"end":776.42,"text":"I think it'll be fine."},{"start":776.44,"end":777.06,"text":"I think it's fine you're going."},{"start":777.08,"end":777.66,"text":"And also out there to Taiwan."},{"start":778.42,"end":782.35,"text":"Before you go or after you go, I'll see you, of course, because I want to know what's going on, what you find out."},{"start":782.37,"end":785.11,"text":"And I'll see that you get a really good paper on that or you come and talk to me, but I appreciate it."},{"start":787.55,"end":788.17,"text":"He told me."},{"start":788.2,"end":789.32,"text":"He told me about it."},{"start":789.34,"end":791.64,"text":"I already have it in the works."},{"start":791.66,"end":793.19,"text":"I knew you were going."},{"start":793.21,"end":794.65,"text":"I know it."},{"start":795.09,"end":795.27,"text":"Fine."},{"start":795.29,"end":797.76,"text":"You'll give my best to it, will you?"},{"start":798.24,"end":798.34,"text":"Okay."}],"aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Billy Graham discuss upcoming travel itineraries, international relations, and the political climate in the United States. Nixon shares his views on handling unpopular decisions and his reliance on Treasury Secretary John Connally to manage economic messaging. The President also expresses optimism regarding the conclusion of the Vietnam War and expects improved economic indicators for the coming year.","topics":["International Diplomacy","Vietnam War","Domestic Economy","Political Strategy","Travel and Schedule"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T00:17:50.796Z"},"topicSlugs":["international-diplomacy","vietnam-war","domestic-economy","political-strategy","travel-and-schedule"],"audioDurationSec":803,"audioFiles":[{"file":"015-074.mp3","bytes":19267081,"durationSec":802.74,"bitrate":192014,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T02:19:24.618Z","transcriptGapSeconds":182,"transcriptGapShare":0.23,"transcriptQuality":"incomplete","audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/015-074.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/015-074","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/15/conversation-015-074","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). AI-generated fields (transcript, aiSummary) are provided as-is without warranty."}