Conversation 016-053

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Hello.

Mr. Carlson, sir.

Yes, sir.

Yes, President.

Chuck, Mitchell, just talking to Haldeman, Mitchell is, you know, pressing to get a decision on the profit thing.

Right.

And he has talked to Connolly about it.

Right.

I mean, because of the pay for it thing, and they both lean...

to doing it.

Now, I just wondered what your latest feeling was.

Apparently, we've got to decide it fairly soon.

We have to, Mr. President.

Fitzsimmons has now begun to press us very hard for a decision.

But he wants it now, huh?

Well, no, sir.

Let me give you the trade-offs this way.

First of all, Fitz...

wants to get Hoffer out because that's the only way that he can keep control of the pro-Hoffer forces within the Teamsters.

He is shot down eventually if Hoffer doesn't get out.

If Hoffer gets out with no strings attached, he, Fitzsimmons, will undoubtedly at some point be in a power struggle and may lose.

So he wants them out, but he wants them out with strings.

There are two kinds of strings.

The one kind and the best would be the parole board, which puts obvious conditions upon the parole.

Well, that's apparently not what we're talking about, though.

The second, well, I understand.

Isn't that true?

What Mitchell is talking about is putting on the Christmas list.

Right.

That's, to me...

That bridge shouldn't even be crossed until Mitchell is satisfied that he can't get him through the parole board process.

In other words, there is new evidence, and if Mitchell thought that the parole board could do it, then that would be the route I would try.

If Mitchell says he doesn't think the parole board can do it, then you've got another set of circumstances.

The strings then would be,

other things which they have on Hoffer that if he were out would be charges that would be brought against him if he tried to get back into the Teamster movement.

Yeah.

Fitzsimmons is very happy with us at the moment that we are trying to work this out in a way that accommodates him.

I can make him happy either way.

In other words, if you decide not to go, I can make him happy on the grounds that we're protecting him.

If you decide to go, I can make him happy on the grounds that we have other strings on Hoffer

other than those which the parole board would in in the normal course of things have now from the heat from your standpoint uh obviously the parole board is preferable there's yet another factor and that is uh i may be i know you don't entirely agree with me but i'm still working like hell with the conservatives to try to keep them out of new hampshire if we let hofer out that's something that loeb uh

That could be the price of Loeb not fielding a candidate against us because you know the tie there.

That's one of immense power.

So from the standpoint of New Hampshire and from the standpoint of the ultimate commitment that Fitz has, I believe we should do something.

uh i would infinitely prefer to see it done through the probe yeah i i know i think everybody would but if that's my i'm going to talk to mitchell again about it but he's told me i've gone over on that track you have gone around it i have i'll try it again anyway well it doesn't no i think if i mean if he but no i'm going to try it once again i'm going to say i'm going to say and i'll look here about the parole board and it won't work that's something else okay

Well, my thought, Mr. President, frankly, is that the probe would, if they were to meet now and turn it down, you still have options.

The very fact that they're meeting would take a lot of heat off if they were to call another hearing.

I get it.

And that would show that Fitz was able to deliver that much.

I think it would cool Loeb down, and I think it would make him of necessity back down from

the new crusade he's on.

He's now got daily editorials going.

Yeah, I know.

And so on all accounts, I think that movement would be a plus.

Now, if that is ruled out, then I guess I reluctantly will weigh in with Connolly and Mitchell on this and reluctantly say that I think you ought to do it at Christmas and get it out of the way.

That's always been my feeling.

What turned me off was your stand against Meany.

Yeah, I know.

And feeling that this will have some effect on people, say, Jesus Christ, he's soft on labor.

They don't distinguish.

Well, that's right.

We distinguish, but they don't distinguish Hoffa and Meany, and they're all a bunch of bastards.

That's right.

And that's the negative to it.

Now, the other...

The other point is that I must say that you have built something which I consider really at the moment to be invincible.

You have built over the last several months the image of strength and guts and courage and doing what is right for the country regardless of anybody.

And I don't think this move would

I don't think it's that major that it would upset that.

I really don't.

You don't?

No, sir.

I don't.

And especially if it's done in the Christmas season.

Oh, yeah.

Mitchell plans, he said, I understand it.

He puts it on a long list.

Well, it's Christmas Eve, and Mitchell should develop the public rationale for it.

And he says...

I would say this, Mr. President.

There are two things that give this a great deal of urgency.

One is...

to the extent it is of any concern to us.

If we plan to do it, a quiet communication through the right people to Loeb

would turn off a primary challenge this week.

Nobody will go to New Hampshire without Loeb's backing.

I learned that from Jim Buckley, whom I met with last night.

No Republican will oppose us, no conservative will oppose us in New Hampshire unless they have Loeb's commitment, and right now they have it.

Oh, sure.

So that the...

I'm inclined to think he's going to give that anyway, though.

I mean, it's just one of those problems.

No, I don't, sir.

I think he could be won over.

Jim Buckley does not think we're in a hopeless situation at all, as far as the...

opposition goes and wants to help us.

And I just raised that as one of the considerations on that.

Yeah, well, I'm sure Mitchell's probably been thinking of that, too.

He hasn't mentioned it, but I'm sure he is.

Well, that's just one thought.

The other thought is that Fitz right now is pushing.

Well, he's on a hot seat just to know what we're going to do.

I understand.

Well, that's why Mitchell, I think, has been pressing.

I'll give Mitchell a call, see what the latest dope is, and we'll take a crack at it.

All right, sir.

Okay.

Thank you, Mr. President.